Roots Above Ground

tsky · Sep 30, 2010

its not a problem at all outdoors its even an advantage in wet weather as if soil becomes waterlogged some roots are above the soil and can always get oxygen.
3/4 fill a pot when the plants rootbound pull it out add the remaining 1/4 soil put the plant back in and the soil above the level of the pot is eroded away by rain ect leaving exposed roots.
btw i heard this from a video of soma talking about some of his techniques on youtube search soma speaks theres about 6 parts each around 10mins each, i havnt personally done it but that mother fucker knows his shit.

Beansly · Oct 1, 2010

Yeah, I'm gonna look into it a little ore myself, cause the ones I accidentally did plant that way (it's called step transplanting I think), turned out a little more vigorous and healthier looking. Then again one did turn out to be male, but take that for what you will.

I think the point is to get more oxygen to the roots...idk--
Exposing the roots to more and more air through each transplanting must be the point. With all the new mediums like coco and new grow techniques like DWC, it seems a little antiquated, but still a simple technique for soil growers.

Uncle Ben · Oct 1, 2010

Beansly said:
....Exposing the roots to more and more air through each transplanting must be the point. With all the new mediums like coco and new grow techniques like DWC, it seems a little antiquated, but still a simple technique for soil growers.

If it's not an accepted, normal practice performed by professional greenhouse managers or nurserymen (and it's not), then it's more of the same old cannabis bullshit. BOG who has/had a pulpit for noobs to preach to, started the stair-stepping transplanting hype back at the old OG site...... whereby those too afraid to use conventional upcanning methods would cut out the bottom of their pots and set them in a larger pot of fresh soil the intent being that the roots would move downward into the fresh soil. Like much of such <cough> "advanced techniques", this lame practice comes with a host of problems - plant stability, fact that the feeder roots are not 2' deep but rather closer to the top, effectiveness, etc.

Coco is not new, it's been used by orchid growers (me) for over 40 years.

There is nothing "new" in this biz of growing plants, unless you want it to be. It's a "feel good" thingie.

UB

kingofqueen · Oct 1, 2010

Uncle Ben said:
Shut the fuck up.

Hope that helps,
UB

LMAO ! I'll take UNcle Ben's advice right along with snard remarks, bean up his butt or not you will learn from him ! Hell everyone who is serious about growing practices on tomatoes got a mess of them outside myself !

Love all the drama ! lol

cowell · Oct 1, 2010

I have no clue about it- my plants- whether MJ or tomatoes or corn etc all have their roots covered....but I do have enough respect for UB as a grower - with more than enough experience under his belt to be able to tell someone "don't do it-it's pointless" - and assume there's likely something sound behind it.

His topping guild is everyone's point of reference on the topic so it seems.. and I know I used it my first time to achieve the expected results. I wish he would chime in on some of my "advanced growing technique" questions - although I'm sure what his answers would be from his other posts. (example -defoliation.. I know he would say "bad idea" as he always says totes the "roots and leaves are the most important thing").. I find it amusing that such new growers (notice I didn't say noobies... as I just joined a site the other day and am a noobie there.. but I have enough grows under my belt to try and be a useful source of info -or so I like to think-) dismiss his advice so readily.

I am still of the mindset that I don't know enough to NOT try certain things to find out results for myself - I still value the input of proven growers offering sound advice.

and UB is far from being chastising when he said "some people's popcorn harvest is some people's... whatever he said".. but it made me laugh when I read it because it's accurate. When you read some people's threads where they harvest 5g's fluff from an LED grow and think they are a pioneer who just proved how amazing you can grow with a flashlight and some aerated molasses - they are happy with that.. but I'm pissed if I don't get at least half lb every 3 weeks out of my perpetual grow. I would have been WAY more condescending and likely not give you as concise a reply.

I just think it's funny when guys like UB, RIU, Potroast, FDD get told to go fuck their hat by people who don't know what a yield is... thanks for the chuckle.

Uncle Ben · Oct 1, 2010

cowell said:
I have no clue about it- my plants- whether MJ or tomatoes or corn etc all have their roots covered....but I do have enough respect for UB as a grower - with more than enough experience under his belt to be able to tell someone "don't do it-it's pointless" - and assume there's likely something sound behind it.

His topping guild is everyone's point of reference on the topic so it seems.. and I know I used it my first time to achieve the expected results. I wish he would chime in on some of my "advanced growing technique" questions - although I'm sure what his answers would be from his other posts. (example -defoliation.. I know he would say "bad idea" as he always says totes the "roots and leaves are the most important thing").. I find it amusing that such new growers (notice I didn't say noobies... as I just joined a site the other day and am a noobie there.. but I have enough grows under my belt to try and be a useful source of info -or so I like to think-) dismiss his advice so readily.

I am still of the mindset that I don't know enough to NOT try certain things to find out results for myself - I still value the input of proven growers offering sound advice.

and UB is far from being chastising when he said "some people's popcorn harvest is some people's... whatever he said".. but it made me laugh when I read it because it's accurate. When you read some people's threads where they harvest 5g's fluff from an LED grow and think they are a pioneer who just proved how amazing you can grow with a flashlight and some aerated molasses - they are happy with that.. but I'm pissed if I don't get at least half lb every 3 weeks out of my perpetual grow. I would have been WAY more condescending and likely not give you as concise a reply.

I just think it's funny when guys like UB, RIU, Potroast, FDD get told to go fuck their hat by people who don't know what a yield is... thanks for the chuckle.

LOL. Thanks for the witty post.

Noobmeister · Oct 1, 2010

I was being sarcastic about the intelligence part. . .

Noobmeister · Oct 1, 2010

Ya, I laughed about it too, but I am not gonna be an ignorant pretentious prick about it. I agree with what UB said, it's the manner in which he said it. BTW - topping is a noob technique. It hurts and stalls the growth just as much as this questioned technique of pulling the plant out a bit to expose the roots. Neither is worse than the other really. You want to increase colas, bend the damn thing, don't cut it. You know the saying, "Leaf the leaves alone". But shit, who am I to say that. I only get half a p of 1 litre to 2 litre pop bottle sized colas (Usually 4 of them) off my 1 to 1 and 1/2 foot tall bent P.O.S. plants. . . Topping is great if you are limited in plant quantity and you don't care about the extra week it costs you, sometimes two. . . but for those of us that have a consistent and reliable schedule and more beauties which we could need and ask for, topping is a pain in the ass and just slows us down and reduces the yield, read a book about it and you'll understand what I am talking about. But, for those of you that do like to top and have the time and means to do so and don't care about the extra harvest you could be getting in a year's time, then shit, I have read UB's topping thread and I like it too. nothing wrong about it, although personally I would rather FIM, you get MORE colas that way if you do it right.

Now, in regards to pulling the plant out a bit, this is actually a great technique for larger plants (6 feet + typically) as long as you cover the base of the plant with black garbage bags, cardboard, a wood box with an adjustable hole covering that you can assemble around the stalk and over the roots |-| if you get what I mean, keep in mind it does have to have holes drilled into it so that the air can be constantly exchanged for the roots underneath. . . My recommended method would be to use a small garbage can, cut it in half and cut out a nice sized hole in the bottom of it, flip it upside down and throw this around the base of the plant. If there is too much space between the stalk and the hole you cut for it, fill in the gap with garbage bag or something else that works, and don't forget to drill those holes in the side. The purpose of this garbage can or wooden box shield is to keep the light from damaging the roots and forcing them to begin to produce chlorophyll and other chemicals and hormones that will convert the root to stem.

Hope that answers your question and helps some of the curious people out there. I read about a technique like this in a medical marijuana bible which I have.

Uncle Ben · Oct 2, 2010

Noobmeister said:
Ya, I laughed about it too, but I am not gonna be an ignorant pretentious prick about it. I agree with what UB said, it's the manner in which he said it.

If you had read and put up with corrective posts regarding all the cannabis forum bullshit, feel-good tech talk for 15 years, you'd be short on patience too. Now.........if you need some warm fuzzies and touchy-feely action from The Herd, you best stay away from me and my posts.

Also, there's nothing I dislike more than posers (and that includes parrots). IOW, if I feel up to the chase.......

For example (& here we go again).........

BTW - topping is a noob technique. It hurts and stalls the growth just as much as this questioned technique

No it doesn't. If your plant doesn't respond within 24 hours with new output, then you've got problems other than topping techniques witness my first photo in the 4 main cola sticky.

Topping is great if you are limited in plant quantity and you don't care about the extra week it costs you, sometimes two. . . but for those of us that have a consistent and reliable schedule and more beauties which we could need and ask for, topping is a pain in the ass and just slows us down and reduces the yield, read a book about it and you'll understand what I am talking about.

"Extra week"? Sorry, but you don't know shit. I've been growing thousands of plant materials for 40 years, and that includes cannabis. Having said that, what "book" are you referring to, "How to apply gimmicks and snake oils in order to fail?" by IBeeAhNewb

But, for those of you that do like to top and have the time and means to do so and don't care about the extra harvest you could be getting in a year's time, then shit, I have read UB's topping thread and I like it too. nothing wrong about it, although personally I would rather FIM, you get MORE colas that way if you do it right.

FIM, sheesh, that says it all. According to the accepted forum Fuck I Missed technique, it's nothing more than conventional topping methods. The REAL FIM technique (not that I would endorse or practice it as it's about as questionable and unreliable as can be) was cutting midway thru a node to induce multiple outputs just below the cut.

.....The purpose of this garbage can or wooden box shield is to keep the light from damaging the roots and forcing them to begin to produce chlorophyll and other chemicals and hormones that will convert the root to stem.

Is that right? And just how much hormones and chemicals do they produce LOL?

I quit........

UB

kingofqueen · Oct 2, 2010

Oh shit thats funny stuff , I feel you there UB I,m sure you answer a buttload of questions and it gets makes you mad when ppl chime in without reading everything . So that guy was downing on topping then ended with supporting FIMing . LOL I"d quit too !

I think every one ends up with different techniques that work for them and their enviroment and space limitations. Hell I,m doing all LST I can say it works great but with one grow using I<M no expert right ? , so I,m not gonna say it's the best way shit if you got no patience it will drive you nuts all the tieing and re tieing sure i,m gonna have to support my colas too. But I got the time and I,m enjoying working with the plants .

I got a runt I havent trained yet mabey I,ll top it to see how it works for me . I,m sure in the future I,d like a leave it alone technique.
I"M still a newb I,d guess you'd say but thats the fun part right being facinated with all the newness and learning different stuff I,m having a ball growing and appying what I learn from RIU .

As for some of these mythical tecniques I stick with advice my Dad gave me a long time ago " If it works so damn great everyone would be doing it " It would be the norm like you say if it's not somthing you see in nurserys or commercial growing it's bullshit !

Uncle Ben · Oct 2, 2010

kingofqueen said:
....I think every one ends up with different techniques that work for them and their enviroment and space limitations.

That pretty much sums it up. Good on ya!

As for some of these mythical tecniques I stick with advice my Dad gave me a long time ago " If it works so damn great everyone would be doing it " It would be the norm like you say if it's not somthing you see in nurserys or commercial growing it's bullshit !

Yep, something like...... "If sugar was so wonderful it would be sold as fertilizer." I network and hang with professional growers and have seen every trick in the book.

I think my favorite forum paradigm is the flushing drill LOL. Next would come, say......"you can't give a plant too much light."

UB

DankBudzzz · Oct 2, 2010

I've noticed something wierd on my second grow and I attribute it to superthrive, My roots are growing new shoots above ground goin up to the first set of true leaves....Everytime I bury it more it continues to grow new root shoots...This is not stressful to the plant is it?

Uncle Ben · Oct 2, 2010

DankBudzzz said:
I've noticed something wierd on my second grow and I attribute it to superthrive, My roots are growing new shoots above ground goin up to the first set of true leaves....Everytime I bury it more it continues to grow new root shoots...This is not stressful to the plant is it?

No, not stressful. Got a photo?

You must realize that there are dormant buds located at different points along the plant, most being at the nodes. Bury a node and it will produce root output (which results in increased yields all else equal). Apply certain hormonal actions above ground and you may get foliar output.

Superthrive and other external hormonals/chemicals can produce weird results, most time not what you want. There is no need to use Superthrive. If it makes you feel better, use 10 drops/gal. as a drench after an upcanning session. No need for it thereafter (in spite of the label hype).

UB

Smrt · Oct 2, 2010

Uncle Ben said:
Superthrive and other external hormonals/chemicals can produce weird results, most time not what you want. There is no need to use Superthrive. If it makes you feel better, use 10 drops/gal. as a drench after an upcanning session. No need for it thereafter (in spite of the label hype).

UB

Right on UB. So many people think SuperThrive is the answer to everything that grows. I keep saying it's not. The label hype is just that, no real proof of everything they claim on the label. I dont use the stuff anymore, stopped buying it years ago. I use very little of anything, I stick to my nutes mainly and maybe the odd shot of humic/fulvic and my h2o2. Waste of money, thats just my opinion but when I see someone like you backing up what I think in my head, all the more reason for me not to use the crap. Thanks.

Noobmeister · Oct 2, 2010

Wowie, they say ignorance is bliss. . . You prove it time and time again. Ya, okay, so it takes 24 hours to resume growing after topping, and the growth you will arrive at in a weeks time will be half that if you had chosen not to cut it at all, that is, depending how quickly or late you chose to top.

To answer your ignorance is bliss comments, I will refer to the "Marijuana Horticulture: The Indoor/Outdoor Medical Grower's Bible by Jorge Cervantes, judging by your ignorance I wouldn't be surprised that you have no idea who that is. . .

If you have the book (Which any basic, newb, ammature grower should always have at LEAST one book similar if not this exact one to begin your collection with) you can turn to page 51, and continue on to page which will cover everything from Pruning and Bending, Pruning (Pinching is better than topping actually, read a book or two, you learn a bit no matter how ignorant you are. . . OH LOOK, what does it say here: "Topping diffuses floral hormones. The hormones (Auxins) prevent the lateral buds from growing very fast." Above this you will find, "The MOST SUCCESSFUL growers do NOT top at all, especially if growing a short clone crop that is only two to three feet (61-91cm) tall. Short clone crops require no pruning to increase light to bottom leaves or to alter their profile. "NO PRUNING AKA TOPPING" is the easiest and most productive method when growth short cash crops."
Following, "Not pruning has several advantages. Floral hormones are allowed to concentrate in tips of branches causing buds to grow stronger and denser."

Gee, call me a fucking idiot, but that sounds pretty damn straight forward for me, doesn't it Ubernoober Ben? Why don't you read a book instead of fantasizing yourself with your own thoughts. Also, a page later in the FIM Technique section: "The technique became legendary on www.overgrow.com, ever since the grower wrote: 'This pruning technique could revolutionize indoor gardening.'"

The section Bending (As I previously mentioned, but here's the book for your ignorant smart ass):

"Bending is similar to pruning, in that it alters the flow of hormones. Bending is much easier on plants than prunning/topping" - I WONDER WHERE I GOT THAT IDEA FROM UB???. After this he teaches people like you how to bend.

Oh and then it gets into Root Pruning using light and the effect it has on hormones, ironically these are all in the same chapter of the book - Chapter THREE, one of the first chapters in the books, just to teach noobs how to grow really. . .

Bottom line, I am not going to waste any more of my time flipping through books to prove things that I have learned to somebody who thinks they know it all.

King, UB, re-read what I said. I said, IF ANYTHING "I would prefer". . . That does not mean I support it, that means I think FIMing is better than topping (Go ahead, read again, just to double check so you both don't look any more ignorant than you already do), which, if you knew how to read and had a couple books on marijuana growing, you would find that to be the truth.

Truth is, when some things work so damn good, not everybody would do it. You want to know why, kingofqueen?" Because when it comes to gardening, people do what they THINK is the best or what they THINK gives them the best result, very few gardeners/growers such as myself, actually follow scientific principles and common logic. How do you think stressing a plant by cutting it's top off is more healthy than pinching or bending? I dunno, ignorance never ceases to amaze me. When it comes to things like this, UB and you will continue to do what you THINK is best, even though there are dozens of books, marijuana related or not, that refer to the topics we have covered. I mean these are the most basic of gardening principles, maybe it would help you both if you went to your FRIENDLY neighborhood library, picked up a book on gardening OR pot, and READ it, at the least, find somebody who can read and get them to read it to you. . .

"Oh shit thats funny stuff there"

Do some research, read a book, then tell me I am wrong. Until that day, I will take my degree in biochemistry and biology and shove it up my ass and into my brain where it belongs. . .

Sincerely,
Noobs...

Noobmeister · Oct 2, 2010

kingofqueen: "I think every one ends up with different techniques that work for them and their enviroment and space limitations."

Yes, you're right, and that is exactly why your following contradictory statement of "If it works so damn great everyone would be doing it" is inaccurate. Because people do what they think is best for their set-up, environment, conditions, etc.

BTW - KingofQueens is a sweet TV show. I like it. And don't take what I said personally on you, I was simply responding to the kindness I was being shown, OR as UB would call it "warm fuzzies and touchy-feely action from The Herd"

Bottom line, and I will say it again, RIU is here to help the uninformed become informed as well as for sharing ideas and the like. It isn't supposed to be used for bashing people or promoting one's own ideologies. Just because I have 24 posts and you have 2,400 posts, does not mean I have no idea what I am talking about. What, I gotta sit behind a computer screen and brag about how heat-score my production is? I'd think not. Only recently have I become a medicinally approved grower and as such I have no more concerns with posting my opinion. Shit UB - You have been around RIU as long as I have.

BTW - as I stated previously, yes, topping is great if you don't care about getting one less cycle or having massive plants that take much longer to harvest from - as is apparent by your picture that you point out. I will be posting one of my own similar to yours, only using bending instead of topping, and we will see the difference of yield in regards to the plant size. The plant I bent is 1, maybe 1.5 feet tall. Yield 10 oz. What about yours? Yes, yes, I know you will want pictures, I am getting there. Keep in mind this posting business is fairly new for me.

Noobskie

Uncle Ben · Oct 2, 2010

Smrt said:
Right on UB. So many people think SuperThrive is the answer to everything that grows. I keep saying it's not. The label hype is just that, no real proof of everything they claim on the label. I dont use the stuff anymore, stopped buying it years ago.

The only thing "that is an answer to everything that grows" is knowing what a makes a plant tick, and it sure as hell aint Superthrive.

https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/294633-superthrive-superjive.html

Uncle Ben · Oct 2, 2010

Noobmeister said:
To answer your ignorance is bliss comments, I will refer to the "Marijuana Horticulture: The Indoor/Outdoor Medical Grower's Bible by Jorge Cervantes, judging by your ignorance I wouldn't be surprised that you have no idea who that is. . .

My ignorance? I'm credited for helping Jorge with his book - credits on preface page IV and page 69-70 as well as being mailed a signed, free gratis copy before its release from the man himself.

I guess they aren't teaching kids how to read these days. Either that or you don't own the book. If you did and was as familiar with it as you pose to be, you wouldn't have made such an (smart) ass out of yourself.

UB

Uncle Ben · Oct 3, 2010

OK, so much for theory, books, and cheesey cannabis mags....this is where the rubber meets the road. I just took these pictures of a recently harvested outdoor's grown plant. This is what I'm talkin' about fellers.

Pot showing high soil level. I did two additions of soil to the pot after it was put into the field to bring the level to where it's shown.(You really need to open up these photos to see the detail!)

Here's a couple of shots showing a dense mass of roots induced by burying the plant deep. I blasted the soil off the top of the rootball "for your viewing pleasure".

Rootball popped out. Notice the roots that grew through the drain holes? There's a method to my madness.

I dug a 3" deep hole, dropped the pot in, packed native soil around it in order to increase root mass/uptake. This Bendejo drill has several advantages - it provides for a convenient watering well and it "recycles" your additions of salts and water. IOW, the foods and water I place into the pot goes into native soil, the root system grows out of the drain holes and uptakes the water/salts. Viola, reduced maintenance and better plant health/vigor!

Was this plant potbound or what!?

Tio Bendejo

.

kingofqueen · Oct 3, 2010

Noobmeister said:
Wowie, they say ignorance is bliss. . . You prove it time and time again. Ya, okay, so it takes 24 hours to resume growing after topping, and the growth you will arrive at in a weeks time will be half that if you had chosen not to cut it at all, that is, depending how quickly or late you chose to top.

To answer your ignorance is bliss comments, I will refer to the "Marijuana Horticulture: The Indoor/Outdoor Medical Grower's Bible by Jorge Cervantes, judging by your ignorance I wouldn't be surprised that you have no idea who that is. . .

If you have the book (Which any basic, newb, ammature grower should always have at LEAST one book similar if not this exact one to begin your collection with) you can turn to page 51, and continue on to page which will cover everything from Pruning and Bending, Pruning (Pinching is better than topping actually, read a book or two, you learn a bit no matter how ignorant you are. . . OH LOOK, what does it say here: "Topping diffuses floral hormones. The hormones (Auxins) prevent the lateral buds from growing very fast." Above this you will find, "The MOST SUCCESSFUL growers do NOT top at all, especially if growing a short clone crop that is only two to three feet (61-91cm) tall. Short clone crops require no pruning to increase light to bottom leaves or to alter their profile. "NO PRUNING AKA TOPPING" is the easiest and most productive method when growth short cash crops."
Following, "Not pruning has several advantages. Floral hormones are allowed to concentrate in tips of branches causing buds to grow stronger and denser."

Gee, call me a fucking idiot, but that sounds pretty damn straight forward for me, doesn't it Ubernoober Ben? Why don't you read a book instead of fantasizing yourself with your own thoughts. Also, a page later in the FIM Technique section: "The technique became legendary on www.overgrow.com, ever since the grower wrote: 'This pruning technique could revolutionize indoor gardening.'"

The section Bending (As I previously mentioned, but here's the book for your ignorant smart ass):

"Bending is similar to pruning, in that it alters the flow of hormones. Bending is much easier on plants than prunning/topping" - I WONDER WHERE I GOT THAT IDEA FROM UB???. After this he teaches people like you how to bend.

Oh and then it gets into Root Pruning using light and the effect it has on hormones, ironically these are all in the same chapter of the book - Chapter THREE, one of the first chapters in the books, just to teach noobs how to grow really. . .

Bottom line, I am not going to waste any more of my time flipping through books to prove things that I have learned to somebody who thinks they know it all.

King, UB, re-read what I said. I said, IF ANYTHING "I would prefer". . . That does not mean I support it, that means I think FIMing is better than topping (Go ahead, read again, just to double check so you both don't look any more ignorant than you already do), which, if you knew how to read and had a couple books on marijuana growing, you would find that to be the truth.

Truth is, when some things work so damn good, not everybody would do it. You want to know why, kingofqueen?" Because when it comes to gardening, people do what they THINK is the best or what they THINK gives them the best result, very few gardeners/growers such as myself, actually follow scientific principles and common logic. How do you think stressing a plant by cutting it's top off is more healthy than pinching or bending? I dunno, ignorance never ceases to amaze me. When it comes to things like this, UB and you will continue to do what you THINK is best, even though there are dozens of books, marijuana related or not, that refer to the topics we have covered. I mean these are the most basic of gardening principles, maybe it would help you both if you went to your FRIENDLY neighborhood library, picked up a book on gardening OR pot, and READ it, at the least, find somebody who can read and get them to read it to you. . .

"Oh shit thats funny stuff there"

Do some research, read a book, then tell me I am wrong. Until that day, I will take my degree in biochemistry and biology and shove it up my ass and into my brain where it belongs. . .

Sincerely,
Noobs...

You need to do some research man Jorge Cervantes didn't even write that book none of the pictures are of anything he grew . I can tell you haven't been doing much research because you are quoting a bullshit book . I got the bible but what you dont know is that book is a copy cat of another book by the same author and publisher it was remarketed to be appealing to new medical growers .
I have the original to prove it if ya like ! I just wiped the dust off mine haven't needed since I,ve found it's a bullshit ripoff!

And you claim to be a biologist ? where did u learn to research ?
Now thats funny shit keep it up I need the laughs ! Peace love and shut the fuck up !

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