removing fan leaves in flower

Ok. Thanks for the link. Everything I read previously about tomatoes stated you would lose total yield from pruning lowers but gain larger but fewer fruit.

And I also always believe that every room of plants is different. And our growing of them is human thus inconsistent.

And if I forgot to include the words "what I have seen" or the like often enough I am sorry for sounding like I must be right no matter what.

I like your post best so far.

MichiganMedGrower said:

Ok. Thanks for the link. Everything I read previously about tomatoes stated you would lose total yield from pruning lowers but gain larger but fewer fruit.

And I also always believe that every room of plants is different. And our growing of them is human thus inconsistent.

And if I forgot to include the words "what I have seen" or the like often enough I am sorry for sounding like I must be right no matter what.

I like your post best so far.

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Oh heck, seems I came off a little arrogant or bent. I wasn't calling you out, or anyone, I was just dropping my thoughts.

I don't think we'll solve this definitively any time soon. Thanks for the kind words, man, I talk too fucking much sometimes.

One of my fears now that my grow is fairly consistent and perpetual weekly is that I bend all plants to be around 2 feet tall to fit my low ceilings. I train all the branches out and upward and the lowest 2 branches make solid bud of weight and potency every time.

Honestly I keep those buds for me all the time.

Michael Huntherz said:

There is very little empirical data on this, in regards to Cannabis. There is a fair bit of data about tomato pruning and improving yields, which may be applicable, or may not. This is a good link: http://horttech.ashspublications.org/content/22/1/44.full

In my limited experience: Training and pruning during veg up through the second week, maybe third, of flower, has resulted in a similar yield of much higher quality buds with a fraction of the trimming. It may have cost me up to a week of time, all told. So yes, a bit slower, but totally worth it in my opinion.

Intentionally exposing the cola sites directly to light and air by pruning a lot of the "inner" fan leaves and almost every flower sites below the canopy has made a huge difference in how I will approach all future grows. I'd never go back now.

We are all offering anecdotal experiences. Some of us have more experience than others, some have more education, and some of us are more observant, but none of us really have rigorous data to back up our claims. Ego gratification and (conscious or not) self-deception may also play major roles, as with all things.

My little spiders are listening to the data breeze for whispers and hints of future facts which, for now, are indistinguishable from sorcery. I think I must be tired...

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Lots of good points. I'm curious why you would think cannabis would be different from any other plant (with respect to both types of plants, Vascular and Non-vascular)?

I'm petty sure I went over why your getting what appears to be bigger buds by lollipoping.

Dumme said:

Lots of good points. I'm curious why you would think cannabis would be different from any other plant (with respect to both types of plants, Vascular and Non-vascular)?

I'm petty sure I went over why your getting what appears to be bigger buds by lollipoping.

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Primarily because the end product seems to have unique desirous qualities, and the conditions ideal for flower production, potency, and density might not have a great analogue in other plants. Cannabis is quite unlike most other crops, we don't worry about how "dense" our tomatoes are, or what the trichs look like. I don't really know a damn thing about non-vascular plants, but I'm pretty sure you can't put 'em in a ScrOG, so I have no plan to find out. I love a good moss, though.

Michael Huntherz said:

Primarily because the end product seems to have unique desirous qualities, and the conditions ideal for flower production, potency, and density might not have a great analogue in other plants. Cannabis is quite unlike most other crops, we don't worry about how "dense" our tomatoes are, or what the trichs look like. I don't really know a damn thing about non-vascular plants, but I'm pretty sure you can't put 'em in a ScrOG, so I have no plan to find out. I love a good moss, though.

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I think this is a great response. and rose growers have their methods and orchid growers and.....

I may have to advance my technique a bit and open my mind some more.

Michael Huntherz said:

Primarily because the end product seems to have unique desirous qualities, and the conditions ideal for flower production, potency, and density might not have a great analogue in other plants. Cannabis is quite unlike most other crops, we don't worry about how "dense" our tomatoes are, or what the trichs look like. I don't really know a damn thing about non-vascular plants, but I'm pretty sure you can't put 'em in a ScrOG, so I have no plan to find out. I love a good moss, though.

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An apple tree is quite unique compared to a tomato, as well, but there cell structure works the same. I guess I still don't understand why you would think there's a difference of how the plant grows, uses nutrients and cell structure, differently.

All surface plants use water, nutrients, and sunlight the same. All use photosynthesis, and carbohydrates the same.

Mr. Krinkle said:

you guys are all fags

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And you are a genius, thanks for your insight

MichiganMedGrower said:

I think this is a great response. and rose growers have their methods and orchid growers and.....

I may have to advance my technique a bit and open my mind some more.

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I love that attitude!

I'm a newb, but I have already worked with a number of people who are anything but new, so I'm just climbing up the backs of those people to peer out over the crowd (thanks, guys!) - I don't think I'm good at this yet.

One thing that the most opinionated people seem to forget is that not everybody has the same use-case, or goals. Assuming everyone wants the same thing is usually a manifestation of ideological puritans who believe anyone who disagrees is flat wrong. I have no time for ideologues, in growing or politics, or fishing for that matter.

My goals and use case:

I'm not trying to get rich selling weed. I'm trying to stay small, outside of bars, and extremely stoned. I want reasonably good yields of uniform very high quality flowers, with as little labor as possible. I don't make concentrates or edibles, so larf is useless to me. I give away (or egads, throw away) my trim. If I wanted to use all that larf then maybe I'd grow more 64" tall plants on purpose, but that's not my goal. Reduction of trimming effort (and final waste product volume) is a big win for me, I'm fuckin' lazy, so I like to simplify and automate things as much as I can. A few fan leaves at a time go down the kitchen sink disposal with no problem, but a garbage bag full on chop day is harder to dispose of, in my case.

I don't defoliate, for the record. I pluck a few fan leaves and lower bud sites every couple of days, I don't strip 100 leaves off in a single day, that's some dumb shit. I'm also not growing monsters, I am running a single 600W HPS over a square meter with 3-4 plants in 5 gallon smart pots.

I'll be switching back to coco (Tupur) on passive drippers in a couple months, and I expect a big improvement in speed to harvest overall, based on previous experience with those drippers.

Dumme said:

An apple tree is quite unique compared to a tomato, as well, but there cell structure works the same. I guess I still don't understand why you would think there's a difference of how the plant grows, uses nutrients and cell structure, differently.

All surface plants use water, nutrients, and sunlight the same. All use photosynthesis, and carbohydrates the same.

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One specific thing to consider is that trichome expression is partially a defense mechanism for the plant. We may someday find (and we all have to admit botany is nowhere near comprehensively understood at this point in time) that direct exposure to light causes increased trichome expression and (presumptively) increased potency, in spite of having no photo-receptors on the flower itself. I don't know, and as I indicated, this is all anecdotal. I appreciate your understanding of plant science, that's respectable, and I'm certain you know more about it than I do.

The growers with the best results I have seen/smoked have all been judicious pruners; neither naturalists who let the plant grow unhindered, nor defoliation zealots.

The thing I think is different is how the plant gives us more of what we want from stress. And way less from too much stress.

I find a little nutrient stress really can frost up the buds at the end. I don't intent to say to stress plants. But withholding a little at the end seems to increase potency. I am not hoping to start a flushing debate here. Just agree with both above comments.

Growing it with conventional knowledge makes the biggest healthiest plant but some of the "bro science" may actually apply because it is marijuana.

I should stop at a couple of local orchards and start an apple growing debate. I bet it would sound familiar.

And around here you can be sure one of the old man farmers kids has some of our plants out there somewhere.

MichiganMedGrower said:

I should stop at a couple of local orchards and start an apple growing debate. I bet it would sound familiar.

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I bet you are right about that. Great point.

MichiganMedGrower said:

The thing I think is different is how the plant gives us more of what we want from stress. And way less from too much stress.

I find a little nutrient stress really can frost up the buds at the end. I don't intent to say to stress plants. But withholding a little at the end seems to increase potency. I am not hoping to start a flushing debate here. Just agree with both above comments.

Growing it with conventional knowledge makes the biggest healthiest plant but some of the "bro science" may actually apply because it is marijuana.

I should stop at a couple of local orchards and start an apple growing debate. I bet it would sound familiar.

And around here you can be sure one of the old man farmers kids has some of our plants out there somewhere.

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Potency is timing of cut, and genetics related.

It's important to declare that's these statements are no more then thesis, so new grower reading understand that defoliation and fading are only opinions for increased yield. All known science contradict these statements.

Dumme said:

Potency is timing of cut, and genetics related.

It's important to declare that's these statements are no more then thesis, so new grower reading understand that defoliation and fading are only opinions for increased yield. All known science contradict these statements.

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Pretty cut & dried statement when there is so much more involved and even ways to get genetic expression. There are several known ways to increase potency

RM3 said:

Pretty cut & dried statement when there is so much more involved and even ways to get genetic expression. There are several known ways to increase potency

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True, but the thread is on defoliation, and only referring to fading nutrients (flushing)

Dumme said:

Potency is timing of cut, and genetics related.

It's important to declare that's these statements are no more then thesis, so new grower reading understand that defoliation and fading are only opinions for increased yield. All known science contradict these statements.

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I have been very clear that these are my opinions, not even theses.

You don't, for the record, know that your assertions are correct, and I edited this sentence to a be a bit less rude.

I never said a damn word about "fading" so don't put that on me. My plants are 90% green 90% of the time at harvest. Are you going to accuse me of flushing next? Because I don't, and I never mentioned it.

Potency is not only affected by the timing of harvest and genetics, there are boatloads of lab results these days that can prove that's not accurate.

If I suggested in 1977 that it was possible the universe was expanding at ever-increasing speeds due to a force I called "Dark Energy" then that would have been against all known science, (and I would have faced a lot of ridicule) but turns out, that's true.

There are simply things you do not know, and none of us do, and we are ALL speculating here at least a little bit.

Just saw RM3's post saying you wrote the definitive post on why flushing is bullshit? That's rad, and I agree. I'm not mad, but I feel a little badgered.

Dumme said:

Potency is timing of cut, and genetics related.

It's important to declare that's these statements are no more then thesis, so new grower reading understand that defoliation and fading are only opinions for increased yield. All known science contradict these statements.

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I said " I find" and nothing about yield.

You said earlier in the thread that chlorophyll content is why the harsh taste. that is the reason for me fading a little. And I mean a little. When I had thick green leaves at harvest it took weeks of curing before it tasted good. I know it is the work of the breeder and the strains but my plants taste good enough for patients to use with a week of drying and a week of jar burping.

The connisours continue their own cure like me.

And I learned to finish them fully green first which is what I recomend any new grower does. Grow the plant and learn to read its needs.

your botanical knowledge is excellent but even you are posting with an agenda and sounding argumentative for no reason but your own.

It is everyone's own responsibility to read learn and decide what is right for them. Even if it goes against convention.

On the other hand Dumme, I appreciate you reminding me to consult botany first. Never meant to argue just share my experience.

Dumme said:

True, but the thread is on defoliation, and only referring to fading nutrients (flushing)

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as the author of the truth about flushing I've been lovin readin your post, so rock on

do think that sayin roots are the only sources is wrong since buds are sources as well

I wasn't implying anything directly to anyone. My current state of mind is higher than normal (indica) to help me sleep. It's way past my bed time.

Dumme said:

I wasn't implying anything directly to anyone. My current state of mind is higher than normal (indica) to help me sleep. It's way past my bed time.

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Peace, bro! Get some rest, it is early morning for me.

No hard feelings for anyone here. Have a good sleep Dumme. I don't do too much of that either.