Organics ARE chemicals

Corbat420 said:

Diabetes : When the Body Stops producing insolin due to High levels of suger in the blood. there is almost no Diabetes in africa, asia, eurasia or south america, simpley due to the fact that they dont have the sugar content in their foods. North America is going through a diabetes epidemic, which can be DIRECTLY tracked back to the commercial and fast food networks. start to look at labels, dont look at whats in there look at the calorie rating and compair it to the carbohydrates. ALOT of the time its 30%+ Sugar.......

Autism : is a developmental disorder that appears in the first 3 years of life, and affects the brain's normal development of social and communication skills. One of the MAIN Causes of autism is high levels of Mercury, Boron, Manganese, Lead, Aluminum or one of many other metals. North America and Europe are the only places on the planet where autism make such a large appearance that it has now become a "public" issue.

Look up Hydroponic Fertalizers and Chelated Metals. Learn what Chelation actualy is..... there is a reason the Ash from Hydro Plants burns BLACK. when my organic is done burning the ashes are white.....
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=X&ei=mMJ0TqmANe_TiAL4kPizAg&ved=0CB8QvwUoAQ&q=chelated+metals+hydroponic+fertilizer&spell=1&biw=1680&bih=910

P.S: no hydroponic fertalizers cant cause diabetes. i was just trying to make a point

Click to expand...

20+ years as a paramedic.............I'm well aware of what those diseases are and there are many working theories as to what is causing them. I still am not seeing any studies to back up any of these claims though.

Corbat420 said:

Diabetes : When the Body Stops producing insolin due to High levels of suger in the blood. there is almost no Diabetes in africa, asia, eurasia or south america, simpley due to the fact that they dont have the sugar content in their foods. North America is going through a diabetes epidemic, which can be DIRECTLY tracked back to the commercial and fast food networks. start to look at labels, dont look at whats in there look at the calorie rating and compair it to the carbohydrates. ALOT of the time its 30%+ Sugar.......

Autism : is a developmental disorder that appears in the first 3 years of life, and affects the brain's normal development of social and communication skills. One of the MAIN Causes of autism is high levels of Mercury, Boron, Manganese, Lead, Aluminum or one of many other metals. North America and Europe are the only places on the planet where autism make such a large appearance that it has now become a "public" issue.

Look up Hydroponic Fertalizers and Chelated Metals. Learn what Chelation actualy is..... there is a reason the Ash from Hydro Plants burns BLACK. when my organic is done burning the ashes are white.....
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=X&ei=mMJ0TqmANe_TiAL4kPizAg&ved=0CB8QvwUoAQ&q=chelated+metals+hydroponic+fertilizer&spell=1&biw=1680&bih=910

P.S: no hydroponic fertalizers cant cause diabetes. i was just trying to make a point

Click to expand...

This is just a restatement of your claim. Id be interested in actual research. I am not aware of any credible research which says heavy metals are the main cause of autism. I am aware of a 2007 study which seem to be fairly conclusive that metal toxicity was probably not a factor, and which Consumer Health Digest referred to when concluding "Autism has no plausible association with mercury toxicity or other heavy metal exposure." The study looked at hair samples of autistic children and their siblings.

Does this mean heavy metals do not cause autism? Maybe, maybe not, but it seems when looking at peer reviewed research the consensus is far from citing metals as a main cause, or even significant factor. If you have peer reviewed material stating otherwise, i'd like to know about it.


Williams, P. Gail, Hersh, Joseph H., Allard, AnnaMary, Sears, Lonnie L. "A controlled study of mercury levels in hair samples of children with autism as compared to their typically developing siblings." Research in Autism Spectrum Disorders. 16 May 2007, Volume 2, Issue 1: 170-175.

doc111 said:

20+ years as a paramedic.............I'm well aware of what those diseases are and there are many working theories as to what is causing them. I still am not seeing any studies to back up any of these claims though.

Click to expand...

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/healthy-drinks/sugary-vs-diet-drinks/#bottom-line

Harvard school of public health. the harvard medical team was one of the first to prove links between sugar and insulin production. explaining how it does it, and sighting 17 study's at the bottom to back the evidence up

10. Dhingra R, Sullivan L, Jacques PF, Wang TJ, Fox CS, Meigs JB, D'Agostino RB, Gaziano JM, Vasan RS. Soft drink consumption and risk of developing cardiometabolic risk factors and the metabolic syndrome in middle-aged adults in the community. Circulation. 2007; 116:480-488.
12. Bellisle F, Drewnowski A. Intense sweeteners, energy intake and the control of body weight. European Journal of Clinical Nutrition. 2007; 61:691-700.
14. Swithers SE, Davidson TL. A role for sweet taste: calorie predictive relations in energy regulation by rats. Behavioral Neuroscience. 2008; 122:161-173.

Click to expand...

cardiometabolic: Concerning both heart disease and metabolic disorders such as diabetes.

From the Gardening Guru, I couldn't have said it better:



Organic vs. Synthetic Fertilizers


The earth neither grows old or wears out if it is dunged. - Columella, circa 45 A.D.

Organic fertilizers differ from chemicals, in that, they feed your plants while building the soil's structure. Soils with lots of organic material, remain loose and airy, are better able to hold moisture and nutrients, foster growth of soil organisms, including earthworms, and promote healthier root development. Building a healthy soil is the key to successful organic gardening.

Another advantage of organic fertilizers, is that they are made from plant and animal sources, or from rock powders. These materials need to be broken down by soil microbes in order for their nutrients to be released, and that takes time. Because organic fertilizer works slowly, it provides long-term nutrition and steady, rather than excessive growth.

Tip: Looking for organic fertilizer to ensure a beautiful, healthy crop? The author of this site suggests Planet Natural because of their large selection and great prices.

On the other hand, chemical fertilizers work fast, which is a good thing, if that's what you're looking for. They can make a bad garden or lawn look good much quicker than most organics can. However, it's my opinion that the nutrients are released too quickly, creating a great deal of top growth before the roots are able to catch up. This kind of growth often leads to weaker plants. Also, because they are so rich, synthetic chemicals can easily be over applied and "burn" roots or create toxic concentration of salts. Learn more about the adverse environmental effects of synthetic chemicals here.

Chemical fertilizers will not improve the structure of the soil. In fact, because they are composed of high concentrations of mineral salts, they are capable of killing off many of the soil organisms that are responsible for decomposition, and soil formation. If only chemicals are added, the soil gradually loses its organic matter and microbiotic activity. As this material is used up, the soil structure breaks down, becoming lifeless, compact and less able to hold water and nutrients. The result is pretty clear - you'll have to use more and more fertilizer.

Heisenberg said:

This is just a restatement of your claim. Id be interested in actual research. I am not aware of any credible research which says heavy metals are the main cause of autism. I am aware of a 2007 study which seem to be fairly conclusive that metal toxicity was probably not a factor, and which Consumer Health Digest referred to when concluding "Autism has no plausible association with mercury toxicity or other heavy metal exposure." The study looked at hair samples of autistic children and their siblings.

Does this mean heavy metals do not cause autism? Maybe, maybe not, but it seems when looking at peer reviewed research the consensus is far from citing metals as a main cause, or even significant factor. If you have peer reviewed material stating otherwise, i'd like to know about it.


Williams, P. Gail, Hersh, Joseph H., Allard, AnnaMary, Sears, Lonnie L. "A controlled study of mercury levels in hair samples of children with autism as compared to their typically developing siblings." Research in Autism Spectrum Disorders. 16 May 2007, Volume 2, Issue 1: 170-175.

Click to expand...

http://commons.ucalgary.ca/mercury/
heres a video from the university of calgary explaining How Mercury Causes Brain Neuron Degeneration.

Neuron Degeneration and Autism: http://scholar.google.ca/scholar?hl=en&q=Neuron+Degeneration+and+Autism&btnG=Search&as_sdt=0%2C5&as_ylo=&as_vis=1
Google Scholar, [SIZE=-1]Results 1 - 10 of about 9,050 Pick one from a university YOU trust
[/SIZE]

Corbat420 said:

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/healthy-drinks/sugary-vs-diet-drinks/#bottom-line

Harvard school of public health. the harvard medical team was one of the first to prove links between sugar and insulin production. explaining how it does it, and sighting 17 study's at the bottom to back the evidence up



cardiometabolic: Concerning both heart disease and metabolic disorders such as diabetes.

Click to expand...

Again, we are talking about "Organic vs. Chemical". That study says nothing about the dangers of conventionally produced food crops and there has been no link (that I'm aware of at this time) establishing a connection between any of those things you've mentioned and "chemical" ferts. Now, that may change as more data comes in. I feel like I need to keep restating my position here; I'm not bashing organic or chemical for that matter. The way I see it there are advantages to both. For some reason, the hardcores on both sides don't usually want to admit this. Maybe we are fucking the planet up but it's not just chemical ferts that are doing it. It's a combination of things and I'd be willing to bet that chemical ferts aren't even at the top of the list of environmental crises we are facing. I could be wrong, but I just don't see it being talked about as an "urgent problem" that needs solving immediately like climate change for example. People act like pouring some chemical ferts in the ground is going to sterilize it. That's impossible! Nothing is truly sterile and bacteria are very strong and reproduce very rapidly. This is one argument that the organic folks always bring up that IMO is baseless. Perhaps they kill SOME of the microbial life but they don't cause barren wastelands where nothing can grow and no bacteria or fungi will ever be able to flourish again. I would LOVE to see some studies backing up this claim of chemical ferts killing ALL microbial life. I will eat my words if someone can provide a legit, scientific study which PROVES this.

Corbat420 said:

http://commons.ucalgary.ca/mercury/
heres a video from the university of calgary explaining How Mercury Causes Brain Neuron Degeneration.

Neuron Degeneration and Autism: http://scholar.google.ca/scholar?hl=en&q=Neuron+Degeneration+and+Autism&btnG=Search&as_sdt=0%2C5&as_ylo=&as_vis=1
Google Scholar, [SIZE=-1]Results 1 - 10 of about 9,050 Pick one from a university YOU trust
[/SIZE]

Click to expand...

I have no doubt that mercury toxicity is bad. That is all these links show, and they all deal with mercury. I see nothing that says mercury or other heavy metals are linked to autism. When I look through peer reviewed articles it seems the opposite consensus is held in regards to autism, which is, heavy metal toxicity was largely a dead end. That is a big difference between the claim that was made of metals being the main factor.

I am also not sure how the link between sugar and diabetes says anything about farming methods. It seem to point to choice of diet. An argument could be made that we are being offered sugar-rich choices and few alternatives, but that is not an argument against farming methods or choice of fertilizers.

I am also not sure how the link between sugar and diabetes says anything about farming methods. It seem to point to choice of diet. An argument could be made that we are being offered sugar-rich choices and few alternatives, but that is not an argument against farming methods or choice of fertilizers.

Click to expand...

wana know the funniest thing about this? you have proven that you havn't realy read anything. simply by saying that. want the proof?

Corbat420 said:

P.S: no hydroponic fertalizers cant cause diabetes. i was just trying to make a point

Click to expand...

we arn't argueing about farming methods any more. you guys decided to go off on a tangent and i gave you all the information needed to verify my claims.

now your talking about how I went off subject? thats the oldest debating trick in the book guys, every debate in history has someone like you guys..... when backed into a carner your only excuse is "nope, the studies arn't right. its lies" it kind of reminds me of the Tobbacco industry 50 years ago

P.S:

ALL microbial life. I will eat my words if someone can provide a legit, scientific study which PROVES this.

Click to expand...

thats impossible to ask. it can never be done simpley because NOTHING kills all microbial life other than space.

if its on earths surface, there are microbes or enzymes in it. thats just the way it is. so what your asking for is something that can never exist. period. the only things that are "Sterile" are things syntheticly created in labs...... hmmmm.....

what we are argueing HERE is it kills BENEFICIAL soil life. only leaving behind HARMFUL enzymes and bacteria......

Heisenberg said:

I have no doubt that mercury toxicity is bad. That is all these links show, and they all deal with mercury. I see nothing that says mercury or other heavy metals are linked to autism. When I look through peer reviewed articles it seems the opposite consensus is held in regards to autism, which is, heavy metal toxicity was largely a dead end. That is a big difference between the claim that was made of metals being the main factor.

I am also not sure how the link between sugar and diabetes says anything about farming methods. It seem to point to choice of diet. An argument could be made that we are being offered sugar-rich choices and few alternatives, but that is not an argument against farming methods or choice of fertilizers.

Click to expand...

Well said! You said what I wanted to say, only you said it way better than I ever could've! lol!

Corbat420 said:

wana know the funniest thing about this? you have proven that you havn't realy read anything. simply by saying that. want the proof?


we arn't argueing about farming methods any more. you guys decided to go off on a tangent and i gave you all the information needed to verify my claims.

now your talking about how I went off subject? thats the oldest debating trick in the book guys, every debate in history has someone like you guys..... when backed into a carner your only excuse is "nope, the studies arn't right. its lies" it kind of reminds me of the Tobbacco industry 50 years ago

Click to expand...

Ummm, I'd like you to show me where I "went off topic", because I went back a few pages and all I could find were posts talking about "organic vs. chemical".

You may be correct but the studies just aren't there yet. I honestly hope they do pin those diseases down to SOME cause.

Click to expand...

then i gave you the information.... jsut like i just did....

handed it to you, like a child who is lost in the world....... can you realy not find this stuff your self? 7500 posts over the last 2 years, you must do nothing other than sit here and bitch at people if you cant even find your own posts.....

oh and if your going to be totally asinine everything is a chemical.

just everything. it doesnt matter what the fuck it is, its a chemical.

Of or relating to chemistry or the interactions of substances as studied in chemistry

• - the chemical composition of the atmosphere

Click to expand...

Which means, if its one of the 118 Basic atomic structures interacting with another of the 118 atomic structures, then by definition its a chemical..........

so the arguement is NOT Organic VS Chemical. its Organic VS Synthetic...... just to let you know

Corbat420 said:

then i gave you the information.... jsut like i just did....

handed it to you, like a child who is lost in the world....... can you realy not find this stuff your self? 7500 posts over the last 2 years, you must do nothing other than sit here and bitch at people if you cant even find your own posts.....

Click to expand...

You said I went off topic...........I didn't bring up those diseases. YOU did! lol!

We are debating here, and the debate was going rather well. There is no need to resort to childish tactics. If you are done debating, then simply leave the thread. There's no need to insult me.

Corbat420 said:

wana know the funniest thing about this? you have proven that you havn't realy read anything. simply by saying that. want the proof?

Click to expand...

I understood your context when I read your disclaimer, but the context that was established was quite clear.

Commercial farming isn't desirable or sustainable. And once again, the latest data shows we've harmed ourselves by blindly eating it for decades. Know an autistic kid? a diabetic? Someone with auto-immune issues? You might thank the commercial food industry.

Click to expand...

While I agree with the first sentiment, commercial farming isn't desirable (outside of profits) or sustainable, I was not aware that disease like autism was linked to it. He referred to data that might show a link, and I simply asked for it.

You posited an explanation of what diabetes and autism is. I do not dispute the link between sugar and diabetes, but I questioned the link between it and commercial farming, which was indeed the original claim.

If autism is linked to heavy metals, then I can see synthetic farming having a serious and plausible downside that should be exposed for study. However your info seemed to be the opposite of consensus, so I asked for data, and you simply supplied definitions but showed no information demonstrating a link.

now your talking about how I went off subject? thats the oldest debating trick in the book guys, every debate in history has someone like you guys..... when backed into a carner your only excuse is "nope, the studies arn't right. its lies" it kind of reminds me of the Tobbacco industry 50 years ago

Click to expand...

Talk about old debate tricks. This is an ad hominem attack coupled with a strawman. My requesting empirical support for your claims indicates that I am backed into a corner? I am just "one of those guys" who favors rational inquiry? I said nothing resembling "the studies arn't right. its lies", but the words I did say weren't easy to counter, and so you put some words in my mouth that were.

http://en.cnki.com.cn/Article_en/CJFDTOTAL-STXB200605024.htm - microbial life as impacted by manure/chemical fertilizer
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/016788098890151X - effects of organics vs. chemicals fertilizers on natural pest control
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0929139301001871 - fertility amendments influence soil
http://www.springerlink.com/content/k446um161x751867/ - More pests and chemical fertilized soil.

If for no other reason then long term growing mediums with organic soil. Just putting some stuff out there, read it at your leisure and take what you want from it.

organic farmers use chelating agents as well

Matt Rize said:

if we all just stop commenting this thread will fade into obscurity where it belongs. Thread over.Thread over.Thread over.Thread over.Thread over.Thread over.Thread over.Thread over.Thread over.Thread over.Thread over.Thread over.Thread over.Thread over.Thread over.Thread over.Thread over.Thread over.Thread over.Thread over.Thread over.Thread over.Thread over.

Click to expand...

For once, I'm in total absolute agreement with Matt. This thing passed silly last year and now is just ... words fail me.

Wet

http://www.sarnet.org/lib/MIT%20-%20Hg%20hair%20autism%20vs%20control.pdf Hair sampling for heavy metal content in Autistic children.
http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15563650701338195 all 17 autistic children secreted higher levels of Heavy Metals.

Theres the proof AGAIN. deleating the post wont make it go away.

che·late (k

l

t

)n. Chemistry A chemical compound in the form of a heterocyclic ring, containing a metal ion attached by coordinate bonds to at least two nonmetal ions.

Click to expand...

hydropinic fertalizers = metals. metal poisoning leads to Autism. direct link

i'll keep posting the proof, and keep siting the studys. it doesn;t matter if you want to abuse your Mod powers, because i will keep reporting you for deleting pertinent information.

I know a lot of small children that smoke pot....
seriously this is so convoluted, to post that autism *might* be caused by heavy metals that *might* be caused by food intake/smoke that *might* be passed on to a child (because pregnant mothers smoke so much cannabis)

makes us organic guys look bad, how does this influence Mj at all?

true organic growing would be throwing a handfull of seeds into the woods and comeing back to harvest. once you minipulate a plant or add store bought fertalizers its not organic anymore. although many fertalizers say there organic, show me one example of water soluble rock phosphates in nature. although some might argue weathering will cause such it will not cause anywhere near the levels found in so called organic fertalizers. omri listed is bullshit!!!