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Mixing Advanced Nutrients... Properly!!!

Discussion in 'Nutrients' started by whitewidow2, Jan 22, 2012.


    Noose74 Member

    when i used to grow bigger plants i had it dialed in with an however with the going from clones just simply diluding my solution to a lower ppm that the lil plants could handle didnt have the same affects so i had to figure out what my ladies wanted more of is all

    which was mostly more calcium and magnesium as i use ro water and diluding left me with too lil

    just made me wonder if some other additives might share same characteristics ya know?

    Noose74 Member

    Heya Tree ya was trying to discover a way to grow alot in a low area all while using as lil nutes really needed to do the job. on one table my clones grew into 12- 15 in fore armed shaped koalas and i was impressed had 64 of em in a 5x5. but i just had some probs with deficiencies like the cal and mag i mentioned and some other lil mysteries

    but this method is still new to me
    tree king

    tree king Well-Known Member

    thats alot of plants brotha. im doing it a little similar, 36 plants per 4 x 4. im still dialing in my new strains but the way it looks now my blubonics can only handle 400 ppm with no veg time in flower. i never see deficiencies but i use tap water

    AzCannaMan Active Member

    Perhaps its because your doing DWC that your able to stay so low on PPM, your plants are constantly exposed to the nutes they need. As opposed to being fed once a day for example.

    64 in a 5x5:o ... Okay here is my hypothesis Noose, the plants will eat up the nutrients they need out of the solution. Perhaps since you have so many in such a tight space with only a 20 Gal res thats your prob. I think you would need a bigger res, id go to a 50 Gal if at all possible.

    If not possible as an alternative you could possibly either, 1. Top off nutes, so if you change weekly in the middle of the week add more (Cal-Mg) for example if your seeing a deficiency there, note that I'd prob add more BASE though instead first and see if that works. Then whatever they are eating up(do you know exactly what they are lacking?) is taken care of. OR 2. Just change the res more often. This will be more of a PITA and costly. So if I were you I'd look at a bigger res or the mid week top off.

    I agree TK, thats a lot of plants in that space. Must be a nice SoG :eyesmoke:

    You could prob go higher on your PPM if you wanted to, just do it slowly, like 50-100ppm a week and you should have no sign of burn. I give my clones just RO like 2 or 3 days, then 500 PPM a week, then 750 PPM a week, then 900-1000. Most people go slower than I do but you can start rooted clones at the PPM the moms were kept at, in my case much higher than the 500 i start at. I just rather be safe & it saves nutes. That's how i get up to 2.0EC (1000-1400ppm)

    ...although in some cases less is more...... :mrgreen::peace:
    tree king

    tree king Well-Known Member

    azcannaman trust me i cant go that high with nutes in flower with no veg time and i cant explain it. noose knows what im talking about. im doing ebb n flow with 4" squared rockwool cubes too not dwc. maybe its cause the salt builds up in the cubes or something but the weird thing is i had the same clones at 700 ppm in my aero cloner before i transplanted them to the cubes and they were doing fine with no burn. for some reason in the cubes i gotta cut the ppm's in half. it doesnt happen though in veg with my moms. after a while when the mothers get big im able to give 1000-1100 ppm without burning

    AzCannaMan Active Member

    Hi TK, Im sorry i thought you were from the earlier post " the way it looks now my blubonics can only handle 400 ppm with no veg time" bubbleponics and DWC are the same thing. Totally different form Ebb & Flow / Flood & Drain. Anywho with no veg time i can see how they would only be able to take a lower ppm , but you have you tried raising slowly as I suggested?

    Now please dont take offense to this but i know your fond of the AN calculator. IMHO this is why you have burn trust me bro FUCK THEIR CALCULATOR! Try my sauce for 1 week. Use 2 ml per gallon of each of your additives FIRST, then add base to your desired PPM. I bet you can go higher on the ppm but your killing the fuck out of the additives.

    2ml per GALLON (not liter as the calculator & bottle suggest on the Additives. Then add your base nutes. Move PPM up slowly. What brand meter do you use?

    Please keep in mind AN's goal is for you to use as much as possible, so they can sell you as much as possible, and get as rich as possible... and I would ditch the rockwool if I were you but that is purely my personal opinion/taste.
    tree king

    tree king Well-Known Member

    az, im switching to aero pretty soon and i was talking about the strain blubonic not a bubbleponics system . i appreciate you tryin to help with a.n but i think your wrong about this. i could be wrong but it sounds like you havent looked at the calculator in a long time. they only want you to put 50 ml of any additive compared to 100 ml each of the 2 part. a 2/1 ratio of 2 part to additives. the additives barely move the ppm just like we have talked about in this very thread. for an example i have a 70 gal res, if i dump in around 250 ml 2 part a, 250 ml part b, 125 ml big bud, 125 ml b-52, 125 ml bud candy. after i put these in my ppm ends up being around 4-500 ppm. this is even a less amount of additives to put then you recommend. ive even burned plants before at 400 ppm no joke. also of this 4-500 ppm the additives only add like 75 ppm or less of

    another thing id like for you to explain is you dont put big bud or b-52 in to add nitrogen. when i talk about plants getting burned im talking about a nitrogen overdose. dark leaves and tip burn with leaves sometime clawing down which is classic nitrogen overdose. i dont see how 30-50 extra ppm of big bud could do that when it doesnt provide any nitrogen at all as its not supposed to

    Noose74 Member

    hey all thx fer the responses

    i meant 54 but yes still alot of plants, but alot of small plants.

    and i out didmyself for first time regardles of the nute probs however......

    yer advice has pointed me in the right direction so i thank you, its backed up some what i thought but was too unsure to mess with too much.

    and get this after grillin dude at AN today he pretty much said same things you all did, which i didnt expect knowing them lol, also filled me in on a few lil details i was un aware of with sensi bloom ph perfect and big bud powder insted of the liquid.

    he said sensi was designed to work with liquid rather than powder big bud when using sensibloom ph perfect. however i use the powder and the sensi behaved exactly like he said it should anyways, but the powder is around 450ppm a gal and the liquid was around 1/2 that at full dose i asked him to explain that and he dodged it like a politician
    i asked him was it stronger? he said not its...then changed subject so i dunno i thinks its just stronger and the liquid is waterd down a lil...who cares tho

    the way he said ph perfect behaved was dont beleive your ph meter cuase it will show an off ph but that it was not off that it was doing its thing. also said would appear to fluctuate in a rang of 5.2 to 6.1 or something just ignore it.

    that goes againts my grain ALOT but hey im gonna try it and see...

    he said with exclusion of big bud and some others bout all there additives were meant to be used at full strength and said you could ignore there contribution to overall ppm as the increase wouldnt lend to nute burn. in the same breath he mimiced your advices over mostly base less of the additives soo....................lol

    ill take that to mean you can use less or more additives yer call make the base most important

    Noose74 Member

    and yes im a firm beleiver of pushing up my nutes i just doit ona smaller scale

    also ive had larger plants in dwc.....

    (5 gallon buckets i hooked up to a rubbermaid tote rez. driled holes at buttoms not on bottoms of buckets and tote, ran 1/2 tubeing from tote to buckets, looked like a spider sorta, pumped from res to plants as the pump drained res gravity kept it sucking in from bottom of buckets to rez tote worked real good).....

    and had ppms way up to 1200 at peak wich is alot for dwc but with gradual push from 800 works great. blooming straight from clone the plants are so much smaller and cant handle that much so i start around 250 and my aroura strain almost burns at that but at mid bloom im up to 400-450 then i taper back down

    AN guy seamed to think i could push it way higher still so ill push a lil more see what happens
    tree king

    tree king Well-Known Member

    i think your doing it perfect noose cause i go through the same thing. no one can understand the way me and you grow unless they do no veg time with the same nutes. now you see why i use the calculator. an is telling you all these different things but if you use the calc then all your gonna be using is like an 1/8 of the recommended dose of additives or 1/4 max which isnt alot

    AzCannaMan Active Member

    TK I have no idea WTF your looking at... If you go here to AN website to their calculator...


    and punch in a 1 (YES ONE) Gallon Reservoir, (be sure to note you have to change to imperial measurement, however if you do that it gives you the amounts in OZ not ML) by switching to imperial then back to metric (it will keep 4L which is the rounded amount for 1 gallon) they suggest you add EXACTLY 8 ml per gallon for each additive. As I have stated earlier I might add. Continue to waste your $ & burn your plants using that calculator if you wish. Boy AN really has you by the balls man hook, line & sinker. You'll prob never switch either even if you keep using their calc and having problems. :shock:

    Glad I was at least able to help the OP who actually listens to people. Go ahead with the AN calc and have fun.

    I rest my case. Perhaps you have forgotten to change the measurement to Imperial, or if you did your mixing up the oz for ml or something... Whatever the case is im sorry to say you are wrong. Look at their website again and do the math and conversions yourself if you dont believe me. This is as of 7:03pm Arizona Time on January 24th 2012. I think its up to date.
    tree king

    tree king Well-Known Member

    azcanna sorry if i came off a little arrogant. your right that they ask you to put more in than i thought so i give you credit for that but the point i was trying to make is that you dont follow the calc when it comes to ppm you only follow the calc when it comes to ratio. that calculater your looking at goes as high as 1200 ppm. since im running 400 tds im not putting in 8 ml a gal of additives im probably putting 1/4-1/3 than what the bottle says to put.

    now that we got that straight can you tell me how i get nitrogen deficiency with 40 extra ppm of big bud when big bud contains no nitrogen? please dont dodge the question cause im curious to hear your answer. what type of burning are you talking about that happens when you use too much of the additives and why does it happen? just so you know im listening and giving you the benefit of the doubt on this topic. im actually hoping your right so i can use less of each product and i appreciate your advice

    also what do you recommend doing when using b-52 and 2 part grow in veg? 2 ml a gallon b-52 then the rest grow?

    AzCannaMan Active Member

    Hi TK,

    "im probably putting 1/4-1/3 than what the bottle says to put."

    So then your putting in 2ml per gallon as I have suggested, at least at 1/4 strength you are.

    If you look at the calculator again the amount of Additives dosent change with the ppm (amount of base) so there is no 2:1 ratio or anything. It's always 8ml a gallon regardless of the PPM. Dont use the base nutes as a way of figuring additive amounts. 2ml per gallon, thats it. Forget ppm when your thinking about additives.

    "now that we got that straight can you tell me how i get nitrogen deficiency with 40 extra ppm of big bud when big bud contains no nitrogen?"

    Do you have burn or deficiency? Okay, if the Big bud contains no nitrogen, then how will adding it help your nitrogen deficiency? You have added 40 ppm of who knows what (big bud), but 0 nitrogen. This is exactly why im saying to run more base. Base is your plants main source of NPK. The additives are just that, additives, not necessary for plant growth like NPK. If your getting leaf burn at the tips i would think you have excess nitrogen or at your very low ppm more likely excess some other compound which is causing the burn. If your deficient and the lowest leaves on the plant are yellowing out id say you need more base!

    I know some people use Gravity for example. This can/will burn your plants at very low ppm with a little too much gravity because it affects the way your plants uptake the nutes rather then raises the ppm. Thus you add too much gravity, feed as normal, and burn things to hell. I dont run the stuff myself...

    So if some of the AN additives have an effect on nute uptake and your overusing them :idea: perhaps thats your cause of burn if any. If your yellowing out add more base.

    "also what do you recommend doing when using b-52 and 2 part grow in veg? 2 ml a gallon b-52 then the rest grow? "

    Yes, 2ml a gal on the B52 (ADDITIVE) and the rest would be Grow A&B. Always 2ml a gal on the additives...

    Hope I can help doulbe your harvests brotha or at least same u from wasting your $ :bigjoint::peace:
    tree king

    tree king Well-Known Member

    wow i never noticed the 8 ml per gallon never changed on the calc thanks for pointing that out. now i see what your talkin about

    you misunderstood one of my questions though. when i asked "can you tell me how i get nitrogen deficiency with 40 extra ppm of big bud when big bud contains no nitrogen?" this was in response to you saying i will get burning if i use too much of the additives. im not having problems with my plants but when you said i would get burning how would that happen if i used too much big bud and b-52? i was just making the point that there wasnt alot of nitrogen in them to even cause burning in the first place. remember, earlier in the thread you thought i might of been using too many additives and thats why i cant raise the ppm that high

    AzCannaMan Active Member

    See my remarks about Gravity above. but like you said i misunderstood your question, however i still think too many additives could be the reason you couldnt raise your PPM's without burning. That is why you cant raise your ppms right? They burn?

    Could be just your genetics but 450 is really light man, id go 2ml a gal on any of your additives your using, then try to slowly raise your ppm (if you even choose to do so) I go to what would be 1400 on a bluelab meter with no problems with only AN. But im in a totally diff set up.

    Try the adds at 2ml a gal, then if you desire to raise your ppm for more vigorous growth go for 50-100 PPM up at a time till you just start to see tips burn. Then add a little water to back off ppm and you can prob still go higher just give them a week to adjust. :-P

    I go 500, 750, 1000 each for a week. They get 500ppm after transplanting my clones. First 3 days are just h2o, not for any reason other than im being cheap and i dont think the roots are getting anything yet anyway they just need the moisture. Day 3 or 4 starts off at 500 ppm then up 250 a week till i hit 1000 then i call it good. Still no burn whatsoever.

    Rep + if I helped you out at all :weed:

    happy growing
    tree king

    tree king Well-Known Member

    how do you give rep?

    i appreciate the info. im actually gonna try raising my nutes to 500 ppm with just the 2 part and see what happens. i just dont know how much additives ive already added. thanks

    AzCannaMan Active Member

    Click the little 6 point star next to "Journal this post" in my posts.

    Sounds solid, thats what i would do.

    EDIT: If it does burn dont fret, try it again on the nest res change but with the 2ml a gal on the additives and higher ppm from base. I bet it cures your problem! :bigjoint:
    tree king likes this.
    tree king

    tree king Well-Known Member

    if it does cure the problem than that will def increase my yield! thanks again

    Noose74 Member

    another thing i neglected to note with my situation and possibly others is...

    environmental conditions

    if yer rez temps get to cold you can get lockout as well wich i known mine to frequently get too chilly at nite. i been told many times correcting this over nutes and additives will get ya there better. i was skeptically trying this while asking bout ratios etc- so i got a heater and a plug in thermometer got my rez temp more stable (around 63) nite AND day. before it could get down to high 50s. and guesss what....

    the phsical signs of lock out are almost gone aside from some minor color signs some leaves that have slightly paled have already goton more green

    i still dont know if that low of res temp is really bad or not but i got a response getting it a lil warmer
    i only let it be that chilly avoiding pythium but i saw warmer was better but i will keep it under 65.

    all good

    thx again fellas
    tree king

    tree king Well-Known Member

    tried upping my nutes to 500 in flower but noticed immediate burning. im sticking at 400. plants are 2-2 1/2 ft tall 3 weeks in flower. strain is blubonic. no water chiller

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