RyanTrees
Well-Known Member
And how did you like GO?
Foxfarm or general organics?
- Thread starter CreamCannon
- Start date
Nullis
Moderator
It's above hyroots, too, only he wont admit it.
But that is essentially what I am saying st0w... Growers should be allowed to use their own judgment where products are concerned, without being hassled by people who want to talk about the ghosts and goblins and genies trapped in the bottles.
About the only General Organics products I use at the moment are the Bio-Marine, CaMg+ (half teaspoon per gallon to rain water) and occasionally the Diamond Black and Bio-Weed (for foliar). IMO if you have a rich soil, you only really need the Bio-Marine, which I like because it is a 2-3-1. I also use Alaska Fish Fertilizer. If you mix the two of those with some blackstrap it is pretty well balanced as far as NPK goes.
I'll extend my definition of organic to natural ingredients which work with soil biota. For instance, the fish fertilizers definitely contain nutrients which are immediately available (soluble), but these nutrients were naturally derived and there is also definitely organic matter to be broken down there.
Sorry hyroot. You were saying?
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st0wandgrow
Well-Known Member
It was fine. The plants were healthy and happy. I prefer the simplicity of a just-add-water type soil now, but there was nothing wrong with the end product. I certainly wouldn't throw your bottles away if you've already bought them.
My only question in using it, which Nullis has since answered, was does this product forgo the soil food web and directly feed the plant, or does it require the assistance of microbes to be made plant available?
Nullis
Moderator
It (General Organics) doesn't totally by-pass soil biota like nutrients with high concentrations of synthetic salts, and it does not contain synthetic chelating agents like EDTA.
The nutrients are still for the most part derived from plant meals (alfalfa, soybean) and mined minerals, but is "processed" to some extent either by enzymes or fermentation. I suspect as much anyways, I wont pretend I know exactly how they make their products.
Fermentation for instance, with things like EM-1\bokashi takes organic matter and breaks it down into more plant available constituents.
But, for instance, compare the NPK ratios of the Bio-Thrive products to the usually much higher NPK's and ingredient lists (totally devoid of anything remotely organic) of Tiger Bloom, "Cha Ching", "Open Sesame", or "Beastie Blooms". The numbers on the Bio-Thrive products are never above 4 or 5, whereas some hydroponic nutrients have NPK numbers like what 9-50-10 or 0-50-30, which is outrageous because most of that stuff is just going to leach away (it's too soluble).
I do think the Bio-Thrive products may be padded, in terms of micro-nutrients and trace elements, which would explain the sodium borate and molybdate. They were aiming for a 2-part nutrient program and had to make it complete some how (including trace elements). But whether those minerals were mined or synthetic (more likely with the molybdate) they are present in such low quantities as to be insignificant. We're talking .000%'s.
Depending on one's perspective, the Bio-Thrive products may contain nutrients and other growth substances (amino acids, organic acids, enzymes, hormones) which are immediately plant available, but they were still largely obtained from plants, earth or released via other biological processes (like fermentation). And when we're talking about the more complex and potentially beneficial substances like enzymes and growth hormones, these are really no good if they need to be broken down first: once they are broken down by microbes they are effectively useless.
The whole kelp argument, for example. Fresh kelp is great, and a great amendment to soil for many reasons, but in terms of PGRs what good are the growth hormones it contains if they are for the most part trapped inside of dead cells or wind up decayed? Not that the plant wont eventually gain access to some of these compounds, but I see kelp extracts as unlocking the full potential of those compounds (as opposed to using crazy synthetic plant hormones that may cause cancer). And now more than ever since I've done more research.
The nutrients are still for the most part derived from plant meals (alfalfa, soybean) and mined minerals, but is "processed" to some extent either by enzymes or fermentation. I suspect as much anyways, I wont pretend I know exactly how they make their products.
Fermentation for instance, with things like EM-1\bokashi takes organic matter and breaks it down into more plant available constituents.
But, for instance, compare the NPK ratios of the Bio-Thrive products to the usually much higher NPK's and ingredient lists (totally devoid of anything remotely organic) of Tiger Bloom, "Cha Ching", "Open Sesame", or "Beastie Blooms". The numbers on the Bio-Thrive products are never above 4 or 5, whereas some hydroponic nutrients have NPK numbers like what 9-50-10 or 0-50-30, which is outrageous because most of that stuff is just going to leach away (it's too soluble).
I do think the Bio-Thrive products may be padded, in terms of micro-nutrients and trace elements, which would explain the sodium borate and molybdate. They were aiming for a 2-part nutrient program and had to make it complete some how (including trace elements). But whether those minerals were mined or synthetic (more likely with the molybdate) they are present in such low quantities as to be insignificant. We're talking .000%'s.
Depending on one's perspective, the Bio-Thrive products may contain nutrients and other growth substances (amino acids, organic acids, enzymes, hormones) which are immediately plant available, but they were still largely obtained from plants, earth or released via other biological processes (like fermentation). And when we're talking about the more complex and potentially beneficial substances like enzymes and growth hormones, these are really no good if they need to be broken down first: once they are broken down by microbes they are effectively useless.
The whole kelp argument, for example. Fresh kelp is great, and a great amendment to soil for many reasons, but in terms of PGRs what good are the growth hormones it contains if they are for the most part trapped inside of dead cells or wind up decayed? Not that the plant wont eventually gain access to some of these compounds, but I see kelp extracts as unlocking the full potential of those compounds (as opposed to using crazy synthetic plant hormones that may cause cancer). And now more than ever since I've done more research.
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RyanTrees
Well-Known Member
How's the taste of said end product? What was feed schedule I have increment chart but how did you feed? How often feed to water frequency and strength ratio? I've read always go for half strength read on another forum this particular line of nutes can b doubled and a lot of times require to be doubled because it's so weak
Nullis
Moderator
How much you use really depends on your soil, container size and the size of the plants. One of my problems, mainly due to life and some relatively minor (in the grand scheme) health issues, is that I was letting my plants get too damned big and couldn't transplant them. That called for doubling, and using with every watering. The chart I would say is pretty well accurate. If you're using full strength and have leaves that are yellowing, double it and try that every other watering. Always start low, though, especially with younger plants.
The supplements you really don't need to over do, but those could be doubled for larger plants. One of the benefits with these liquid products (like the Bio-Root and Bio-Bud) is you can foliar them as is (1/2 to 1 tsp per gallon).
Taste was excellent. As a matter of fact, one of the strains I was growing at the time (not currently using the Bio-Thrives in favor of fish) was Lemon Skunk and it smelled like citrusy fruit-loops that nobody could get enough of. I always just give straight water in regular amounts the final week to week and a half. I also
don't cure my bud for any prolonged period of time. As a matter of fact it gets slow dried in 3-5 days, thrown into paper bags overnight (maybe two) and then jarred. Then smoked the next day (if it's dry enough).
Let me put it this way: this one time I was going to drop off a few ounces at a friends house... I put it in several ziplock baggies, a freezer bag, some shopping bags, and a box, then into the trunk of my car. We went somewhere, then he follows me in his own car back to his place. When we get there he says that all he could smell the whole drive was the aforementioned buds wrapped up tight in my trunk.
Since that day transportation of anything other than personal always involves vacuum sealing.
The supplements you really don't need to over do, but those could be doubled for larger plants. One of the benefits with these liquid products (like the Bio-Root and Bio-Bud) is you can foliar them as is (1/2 to 1 tsp per gallon).
Taste was excellent. As a matter of fact, one of the strains I was growing at the time (not currently using the Bio-Thrives in favor of fish) was Lemon Skunk and it smelled like citrusy fruit-loops that nobody could get enough of. I always just give straight water in regular amounts the final week to week and a half. I also
don't cure my bud for any prolonged period of time. As a matter of fact it gets slow dried in 3-5 days, thrown into paper bags overnight (maybe two) and then jarred. Then smoked the next day (if it's dry enough).Let me put it this way: this one time I was going to drop off a few ounces at a friends house... I put it in several ziplock baggies, a freezer bag, some shopping bags, and a box, then into the trunk of my car. We went somewhere, then he follows me in his own car back to his place. When we get there he says that all he could smell the whole drive was the aforementioned buds wrapped up tight in my trunk.
Since that day transportation of anything other than personal always involves vacuum sealing.
st0wandgrow
Well-Known Member
How much you use really depends on your soil, container size and the size of the plants. One of my problems, mainly due to life and some relatively minor (in the grand scheme) health issues, is that I was letting my plants get too damned big and couldn't transplant them. That called for doubling, and using with every watering. The chart I would say is pretty well accurate. If you're using full strength and have leaves that are yellowing, double it and try that every other watering. Always start low, though, especially with younger plants.
The supplements you really don't need to over do, but those could be doubled for larger plants. One of the benefits with these liquid products (like the Bio-Root and Bio-Bud) is you can foliar them as is (1/2 to 1 tsp per gallon).
Taste was excellent. As a matter of fact, one of the strains I was growing at the time (not currently using the Bio-Thrives in favor of fish) was Lemon Skunk and it smelled like citrusy fruit-loops that nobody could get enough of. I always just give straight water in regular amounts the final week to week and a half. I also
Let me put it this way: this one time I was going to drop off a few ounces at a friends house... I put it in several ziplock baggies, a freezer bag, some shopping bags, and a box, then into the trunk of my car. We went somewhere, then he follows me in his own car back to his place. When we get there he says that all he could smell the whole drive was the aforementioned buds wrapped up tight in my trunk.
Since that day transportation of anything other than personal always involves vacuum sealing.
How long are those bottles good for before they need to be tossed?
I've got about a 1/2 bottle of bio-weed left and was thinking about using it as a foliar after I saw you mention that above.
Guess I could just give it the sniff test...
Nullis
Moderator
The bottle my friend had which actually did have something growing in it you could just tell wasn't good to use. When you opened it up you were actually looking at a mass of fuzz. Then, when I shook it up real good and opened it, still didn't look like right at all: it looked almost like hempseed oil with other immiscible stuff in it.
Sniff test should do fine, also it should be light green opaque, whereas this stuff that had gone bad was actually semi-transparent green (again reminiscent of hemp seed or olive oil).
Sniff test should do fine, also it should be light green opaque, whereas this stuff that had gone bad was actually semi-transparent green (again reminiscent of hemp seed or olive oil).
greasemonkeymann
Well-Known Member
not sure if there is a significant beef with you guys from before, but honestly after reading this whole thread, you seem pretty aggressive towards everybody, seems a lil superfluous, really. Hard for me to understand how you can get so upset about something like this, I mean, you can just click the ignore button, god knows I have about ten people on mine. Just seems like a whole lotta energy being used to argue back and forth.
It's your world though, and I respect it. Argue away, i'm just saying from a neutral standpoint, you seem a lil petulant. Now you'll probably start bad mouthing me too...
Nullis
Moderator
Nope, just hyroot (and others who have a my way or highway attitude).
I am actually very passive. Aggressive. And it's not too much energy when you have enough knowledge of chemistry that you know how certain things work (not everything, but enough of the basics of chem and bio).
I am just a person who knows how to research, and find credible sources of information. And I like to think I know where facts end and my opinion begins. I like st0w because he can actually help facilitate a conversation, and also knows where facts end and opinions begin.
One thing I'll admit: my mood determines how much foul language I'll be using, and if I am likely to call you a fucktard a dolt, or tell you to pull hairs out of your ass, or whatever. I like sarcasm.
As far as Pattahabi goes, he made a flat out baseless cocky assumption about kelp extracts without even looking into it himself first. I think, when people do that, they deserve to have their shit ripped on. All the time it seems like people misconstrue things, like words they don't truly understand, or ingredients on product labels they are not familiar with, so think automatically it is something terrible. Use the word "chemical" or "salt" or "synthesized" or "inorganic" and they freak out because they evidently don't truly know what these things are or what they mean depending on context.
To be perfectly honest, people annoy the shit out of me. People have told me I am "smart" my whole life and I've always hated it, like it somehow meant more was expected of me than other people. When I was younger I used to think, okay so I am smart... does that make everyone else an idiot? Apparently it kind of does, and that's something I need to learn to live with.
But for a person who wants to blow up the outside world constantly, I think I handle myself fairly well.
By the way, what hyroot fails to understand is that I actually agree with a lot of what he does. I do some of the same things. I just wish he wouldn't rag on other people for doing things different than him (over what mainly sounds like conspiracy theories, really), and if he's going to he needs a more solid foundation for it.
I am actually very passive. Aggressive. And it's not too much energy when you have enough knowledge of chemistry that you know how certain things work (not everything, but enough of the basics of chem and bio).
I am just a person who knows how to research, and find credible sources of information. And I like to think I know where facts end and my opinion begins. I like st0w because he can actually help facilitate a conversation, and also knows where facts end and opinions begin.
One thing I'll admit: my mood determines how much foul language I'll be using, and if I am likely to call you a fucktard a dolt, or tell you to pull hairs out of your ass, or whatever. I like sarcasm.
As far as Pattahabi goes, he made a flat out baseless cocky assumption about kelp extracts without even looking into it himself first. I think, when people do that, they deserve to have their shit ripped on. All the time it seems like people misconstrue things, like words they don't truly understand, or ingredients on product labels they are not familiar with, so think automatically it is something terrible. Use the word "chemical" or "salt" or "synthesized" or "inorganic" and they freak out because they evidently don't truly know what these things are or what they mean depending on context.
To be perfectly honest, people annoy the shit out of me. People have told me I am "smart" my whole life and I've always hated it, like it somehow meant more was expected of me than other people. When I was younger I used to think, okay so I am smart... does that make everyone else an idiot? Apparently it kind of does, and that's something I need to learn to live with.
But for a person who wants to blow up the outside world constantly, I think I handle myself fairly well.
By the way, what hyroot fails to understand is that I actually agree with a lot of what he does. I do some of the same things. I just wish he wouldn't rag on other people for doing things different than him (over what mainly sounds like conspiracy theories, really), and if he's going to he needs a more solid foundation for it.
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greasemonkeymann
Well-Known Member
I gotcha there, and I feel ya on the majority of it, pattahabi and hyroot are good guys, I think we need to get along a lil better, sometimes it seems like we are all enemies as opposed to friendly potheads...
I do sympathize with your lack of patience with people, seems like high intellect and impatience tend to go hand in hand, makes sense though, what comes easy to you or I may be challenging for most, I find I have the same problem regarding the general public.
Not that i'm better than anyone or anything, but intelligence is sorta like beauty, the best ones are the people that are beautiful and don't know it...
Very difficult to life your life in the upper echelon of intelligence and not know it though.
hyroot
Well-Known Member
thats an oxymoron...
where did I ever attack anyone, where did I rag on anyone for not doing what I do.? I just simply advise people on cheaper and better ways of doing things. When they ask about soil mixes or products. I don't randomly attack them. Get your facts straight. They can take it or not. Its their choice..... Stop lying. You are the one that attacked me... You get upset when anyone bad mouths GO. As if you work for them, Why do you shill Go so much..?
You've been saying you don't use bottles. Then you say you use Go these last couple pages. Then in the last sentence you say you do the same thing I do. Make up your mind....
Now whose the one that thinks they're are know all and their way is the only way. Thats you .. only if you can make up your mind of what you are actually doing.. If you even grow,,,,,,
You have yet to show any proof that Go is Organic
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Nullis
Moderator
Also, sometimes I use... both.
Very good, hyroot. That's what we call sar-cas-m.
I agree with what you do hyroot, I just don't agree with what you say and I don't believe you have the capacity to argue about it or the subtleties of biology/organics. The first thing you say is "both salt based" which simply is not true (read the ingredients of GO products vs FF products and tell me they are both just as bad) and "full of heavy metals", which again it is just not and as a matter of fact some of the rock, basalt and granite products as well as products from the sea (crab, kelp and even oyster shell) have the potential to contain more of particular heavy metals than the GO or other bottled products.
That doesn't make soft rock phosphate inherently bad, it just means you don't want to over do it... same is true with most bottled products (organic/natural or not).
And if you don't think addressing me as "captain google" and telling me to "do more research" right off the bat isn't attacking, and then later saying I copy/paste stuff from wikipedia (which Pattahabi was actually doing) or "other forums" (???)... well I just don't know what to tell ya. Besides the fact that you go on and on about this "stuff in the bottles not on the label", and I know where you got that idea because we had this whole BS argument about the ODA database in the Veganics thread, and I tried to explain to you what it actually meant, but to hell with what I say because it didn't fit into your evil corporate conspiracy world view (like small business can't make bottled products?) or the fact that you misunderstood something was somehow Earth shattering to you.
Not everybody can or wants to do everything from scratch hyroot. A lot of people live in the city, and are neighbored by other cities, and don't have a corner nursery. You definitely do talk to people as if they should be doing things exactly like you (or they're just not as good). "Build a soil like I do or not organic" and "No bottle will produce an organic grow" are stuck up statements. There is more to organics\soil food web gardening than if your foodstocks came in a bag or a bottle: e.g. AACT, biological controls and pesticides.
And you're essentially asking me to prove a negative (that GO isn't not natural), which is my cue to exit as I might as well be proving that God doesn't exist. Seems a bit like denying the antecedent, but I'm no expert at technical logic.
hyroot
Well-Known Member
more contradictions.. Get your shit straight. I don't think you nullis have any idea what you are talking about. When I said doors research. That's after you attacked me with condescending contradictions. .ie oxymorons. get your story straight first. Have you noticed how many comments there's been asking why you attack everyone. Yet not one comment about everyone else.
thanks for being hater. That shows I'm doing everything right.
thanks for being hater. That shows I'm doing everything right.
Nullis
Moderator
My first post in this thread was #12, which never mentioned you directly and certainly didn't attack you. The next post was yours, in which you were condescending.
What isn't straight about my story hyroot? Give me the blow by blow, that's how you facilitate conversation. I use a soil mix that is most often recycled or part recycled material, with amendments (that come in boxes, and plastic bags) and some shit from my kitchen, earthworm castings, along with fish fertilizer and some mycorrhizae, and a few General Organics products (the squid, others for foliar). Where is the contradiction? You can't use kelp meal in the soil along with kelp extract on the leaves and irrigation? Is that impossible or something?
Nobody was attacking anyone or having much animosity until you showed back up. But you're probably doing things fine hyroot, I never said you weren't. Of course, according to you, I'm not doing anything right. Right?
I admit to being an ass where noted and that's about it. I wonder why it is I can get along with st0wandgrow and others in this thread whose perspectives aren't so damned narrow.
@Nullis prove your point 9f you have proof show it if not get over it your arguing pointless shit. Quit crying put your big boy pants on you argue and shoe no proof. I have been following and learning from hyroot and pattahabi and they have not once steered me in the wrong direction. Always helpful if you can prove your point prove it and thats it. I also feel you work for GO. The bottles even say not for organic gardening or something in cali. It says it on the bottle why dig into it and research a bunch of ingrdients when like i said the bottle says not for organic "something " in cali. I can send you a pic of you would like once I get off work.i mean you have alot of valid ppints and make since but why do you defend GO so much and quick to bash FF or etc
st0wandgrow
Well-Known Member
I think this is a case of one person knowing the chemistry behind the products, and the other not knowing it. IMO Nullis is one of the more knowledgeable cats on this forum. He knows what works, and can also break down *why* it works. That's not to say that Hyroot doesn't know his stuff. He certainly does, but like me he is a little short on the science end of it. Again, like me he knows what works, but doesn't necessarily know why or how it works. This is not a knock on him, but is how I view the scenario.
There is nothing wrong with admitting that you don't know something. Just when you think you have it all figured out someone comes along that can school you a bit. You can either turn the discussion in to a dick measuring contest, or you can set your ego aside and learn something new.
To me the main takeaway from this thread is that growing weed is not a one size fits all endeavor. What you and I feel is best may not work for someone else. I too would like to see more people giving organics a shot. The best way to accomplish that is to put the info out there and help people that are receptive to it..... not slam people that don't do everything exactly the way you see fit.
Each to their own ya know?
Nullis
Moderator
The entirety of our lives is "arguing pointless shit". Here's a rhetorical riddle: If I make a lot of valid points, which are pointless, and yet I have a point left to prove: would proving that point be valid or pointless?
General Organics is "not for organic crop or food production in California" (commercial production). I am sure CA has it's own laws where organic production is concerned, and a quick search gives me the California Organic Foods Act. I totally agree that it probably shouldn't be used by commercial growers on food crops. Why should it be? Commercial growers should have oodles more resources than some chump who is growing Cannabis or peppers or tomatoes or roses in their home. Commercial and certainly produce (fruit, veg & nut growers) should be held to a higher standard, and the larger they are the higher that standard should probably be.
I'd like to point out that I'm not really bashing Fox Farm products, and I have the feeling if it were the other way around I'd be accused of working for Fox Farm. I wish someone was paying me.
If somebody is going to ask me, "Whats more true to the organic or soil food web paradigm: General Organics or Fox Farm", I am going to say "General Organics". I can say this having used both of them (I used to use FF liquids years ago), and knowing enough about the ingredients listed on the bottles. The ONLY bottled Fox Farm product, that I know of, with all or predominately natural ingredients is the Big Bloom.
That's the only bottled FF product that has organic matter & microbes in it, and doesn't contain synthetic chelating agents. And IMO Big Bloom is fine to use.
Grow Big, Tiger Bloom, on the other hand, are predominately comprised of water, synthetic salts, synthetically chelated compounds, and a little bit of dye.
Grow Big said:
Remember, the mineral sulfates like copper sulfate, ferric sulfate, potassium sulfate and zinc sulfate are mined minerals of which deposits naturally occur (along with cocrystals, polymorphs and pseudopolymorphs thereof). Copper sulfate is chalcanthite. Iron or ferric sulphate is melanterite and is common. Rozenite is another. Goslarite is a form of zinc sulfate. These three minerals can even occur together in the same ore, as zinc-melanterite. These are put there to provide micro/trace nutrients (in the 0.00%s), which microbes also require. Keep in mind that this is a one-part product (supposed to be relatively complete), and is also made to be used in soil-less media like coco coir or even rock wool, not just for soil.Bio-Thrive Grow said:
As for the FF Grow Big... Ammonium sulfate is very rarely a natural mineral (mascagnite), though deposits are sometimes found near volcanoes. The turn off here whether sourced naturally or lab made is the ammonium, and not so much that it is a sulfate salt. Ammonium is attempting to provide Nitrogen (a macronutrient as opposed to a trace element), and of course there is also ammonium phosphate, urea, and potassium nitrate. Why does it even need ammonium salts along with blood meal? The product has the viscosity of water, whereas the Big Bloom, General Organics products are thicker due to having an organic matter content.
None of the ingredients in bold are found in the General Organics products, nor are the minerals in those products synthetically chelated (no EDTA). Those are the kinds of ingredients that are going to drive off or discourage microbes by attempting to replace them. Otherwise those ingredients are going to leach away, gas off, or in the case of ammonium phosphate- the phosphate is mostly going to precipitate and become unavailable (note that rock phosphate is actually a rock product which contains phosphorous, not itself a phosphate salt in chemical terms).
Sodium borate and sodium molybdate are the least of the concerns there.
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I agree 100% i wanna learn and know all i can to make me a better "farmer." Nullis seems like he knows alot about alot. Truly i could care less for fox farm and go products. I am and trying to be fully organic no bottles use what's around me instead of spending money. My first few rounds i would buy soil use bottles throw soil out buy more soil etc dummy me i no. I ho from having hundreds or thousand dollars per grow minimum. this round i have prob 150 and tjats buying wood and nails n such to build my vortex brewer, dome aloe plants and a a few bags of ewc. So i am saving lots of money and learning a shit ton. I wanna learn more and no disrespect towards nullis but geeze that sob can type
Pattahabi
Well-Known Member
No, Nullis is just a jerk. What he fails to understand is Hyroot, myself, and many others are trying to help people grow organically without spending their paycheck at the hydrostore. Can you use all the bottles that are labeled OMRI and have an organic grow? I guess. Some of us think there is a better, cheaper, and simplier way of doing it.
But by all means, ramble on Nullis...
P-