Foxfarm or general organics?

Nullis said:

General Organics is fine. Good old Earth Juice Original is fine, too. The Bio-Weed kelp extract is made from...get this... seaweed. The Bio-Marine is made from real squid that were once alive.

The CaMg+ comes from... oyster shell, dolomite and some form of vinegar to solubilize it (all natural ingredients last I checked). The liquid humic acid comes from.... natural deposits of lignite (omg). And other products in the line are derived from such natural ingredients as, alfalfa, rock dust, soybean & kelp meals, plant extracts and mined minerals. No synthetic chelating agents or laboratory derived chemicals are in the product. Can't say the same for the Fox Farm line.

You know what I hate, though? When people who think they know things about a product or product line, just because it comes in a bottle (as opposed to what... a box or a pouch or fresh out the cow?) talk down to and discourage other would-be growers because they are apparently incapable of helping in any actual fashion... just because different people maybe need to do things... differently. But, oh they couldn't possibly understand- why can't everyone be just like them?

Do you go down to the bogs and harvest your own sphagnum? Perhaps you live in Singapore or somewhere you can collect your own coco fibers? Are we all supposed to live on a beach and be physically capable of diving for or otherwise collecting our own kelp? Not to mention taking that weekend trip out to the quarry to mine our own rock dusts? Not to mention, assuming everyone is even physically capable of mixing their own soil or doing any of that.

And hey, blackstrap comes in a bottle, fuck that. We should all be growing our own beets or cane and spinning our own sugar for molasses. Everybody has their own worm bins here right? Because ya know, if you didn't see it come out the worms ass, it can't possibly be organic! As for local compost, sure I could get it for free, but I wouldn't DARE put that crap on my garden. Know why? Local doesn't = quality. My town, for example, makes compost from autumn leaves, street debris and municipal yard waste. Composted ingredients also include dog shit, condoms, hypodermic needles, Styrofoam cups, FritoLay chip bags, and broken crack pipes. Now that's what I call organic!

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I almost just threw away and bought new nutes after readin the go box general organics isn't organic,

RyanTrees said:

I almost just threw away and bought new nutes after readin the go box general organics isn't organic,

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its not organic. Hr doesn't know what he's talking about. He just copies and pastes from wiki and other forums all day long. Ig you do some research you can find out what's really in those bottles

RyanTrees said:

I almost just threw away and bought new nutes after readin the go box general organics isn't organic,

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What about the "GO Box" led you to this conclusion (just curious).

Who makes that determination that something is flat out "not organic" or conducive to soil growing?
And hyroot, if you have something that demonstrates that the whole GO Line is evil, why not give it?

And fucking show me where I quoted wikipedia, or "other forums" please. If you can't (not hard to do if true) then stfu.

Sorry, seriously, if I come off like an asshole and "wont concede" it's because there is nothing to concede to! I know I am impatient and stubborn sometimes, but I honestly would love to talk about this sort of thing with people who are not complete and utter fucktards. If you want to facilitate a worthwhile discussion, which I would love, why can't YOU provide anything of substance to either counter what I am saying, or help educate me?

I mean how can we have a reasonable conversation if you can't even demonstrate whatever the fuck you are talking about? Whats really in those bottles?!! (all of em)

Might as well be arguing with you about Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny.

Nullis said:

What about the "GO Box" led you to this conclusion (just curious).

Who makes that determination that something is flat out "not organic" or conducive to soil growing?
And hyroot, if you have something that demonstrates that the whole GO Line is evil, why not give it?

And fucking show me where I quoted wikipedia, or "other forums" please. If you can't (not hard to do if true) then stfu.

Sorry, seriously, if I come off like an asshole and "wont concede" it's because there is nothing to concede to! I know I am impatient and stubborn sometimes, but I honestly would love to talk about this sort of thing with people who are not complete and utter fucktards. If you want to facilitate a worthwhile discussion, which I would love, why can't YOU provide anything of substance to either counter what I am saying, or help educate me?

I mean how can we have a reasonable conversation if you can't even demonstrate whatever the fuck you are talking about? Whats really in those bottles?!! (all of em)

Might as well be arguing with you about Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny.

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prove it is organic. You defend them so much.

I just bought em, I'm saying was going to toss em due to these bad reviews, I just looked these nutes up on google and read comments on other forums talking highly of them,

RyanTrees said:

I just bought em, I'm saying was going to toss em due to these bad reviews, I just looked these nutes up on google and read comments on other forums talking highly of them,

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I just looked online at the product label and here is the thing. Do you understand what salt does to microbes and worms? It kills them. If you need me to explain that I will, or you can google. We utilize these it our garden to do what they have done it the bottle. We just do it over time with living creatures. Nothing wrong with the product per se nutrient wise. But you can easily buy all that in bulk and save a ton! And the microbes will create a perfect environment for your plant increasing flava! I think. Who cares! I just love digging in living earth, I feel happier every day!

Edit: I realize I didn't explain what product. Look at the biothrive label.

http://generalhydroponics.com/site/gh/docs/prod_labels/BioThriveGrow.pdf

Look at all that yummy salt. Do you want to eat that?

hyroot said:

prove it is organic. You defend them so much.

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It's not "organic" only because they add salts to kill everything in the bottle. So you are basically only feeding them potassium sulfate or whatever salt they decided to use for that additive. But everything other than the salts is organic so he isn't wrong. He just doesn't understand biology and how too much sodium is bad.

Let's talk about salt. Remember that things like Calcium carbonate (oyster shell, limestone) are technically salts. Potassium sulfate, for instance, is considered totally natural and just fine for living organics. Potassium sulfate is a mined mineral (pure Arcanite is rare, more usually found with other minerals as in Langbeinite, which also contains magnesium). If we're going to start dissing mined minerals, then things like glacial rock or basalt, rock phosphate, or Azomite are also out, not to mention gypsum (a form of calcium sulfate), and limestone. Rock dusts contain salts (phosphates are salts of phosphoric acid), and mineral oxides which can combine in solution to form salts more.

There are salts (and salt) in a lot of things, from alfalfa meal to fresh kelp meal to molasses to rock dusts and volcanic ash. Kelp meal definitely has some natural sodium chloride and potassium chloride (salt from the ocean) in it.

Plants actually need sodium, and salts, in order to absorb water and maintain turgor pressure and rigidity. Transpiration depends on the solute (salt) concentration within the plant being greater than that of the soil, outside the plant, otherwise it cannot take up water, or nutrients. Sodium is therefore an essential element. Sodium itself doesn't exactly = salt, although it can be the metal component of a salt. Table salt is the best known salt, and is sodium chloride. As I described earlier salts form between ions, or metals and non-metal charged particles that have a great enough discrepancy in electro negativity (or between acids and bases). Calcium carbonate is the calcium salt of carbonic acid. Potassium sulfate is the potassium salt of sulfur. Phosphates are salts of phosphoric acid.

Salts themselves are usually neither good nor bad, they just are (esp in solution). Many compound salts are mined minerals, made by Earth geology (as in the aforementioned examples). What really matters, more than any particular salt, is it's concentration. The salts you really want to avoid are those with nitrates, ammonium, or synthetic cheating agents like EDTA.

Sodium borate is borax, and is naturally occurring. There is not enough of this, or sodium molybdate, or any other salts in these products, to harm the microbes in soil. The NPK of the product is also not going to harm microbes.

there's organic salts ( carbon ions) then inorganic salts (chemically bonded metal compounds). Big difference

bottled nutes like Go have inorganic salts. Oyster shell flour, lime , egg shells ( calcium carbonate) have organic salts.

table salts vary too. ionized , regular, sea salt, etc...

Carbon ions? Really now? Carbon almost never forms ionic bonds due it's valence. What are "chemical bonded metal compounds"? Is there a such thing as an "organic bond"? How do chemical bonds differ from organic bonds which don't exist?
And its "iodized salt" not "ionized" salt. Iodized salt, has iodine, for nutritional needs.

I meant iodized. Spell check on my phone. My dad was allergic to iodine. So.he couldn't have iodized salt .

Okay, so what about the "chemically bonded metal compounds" versus "organic bonds", which don't exist, and ionic carbon, which doesn't exist (outside a laboratory)?

And by the way, depending on who you ask, even calcium carbonate is not exactly an "organic salt". It contains carbon, but not carbon bonded to hydrogen (a more precise definition of organic in terms of organic chemistry). It was never traditionally viewed as organic, but is more often today because the definition of "organic" has been essentially dumbed down to "compounds which contain carbon period" (even I use this definition in general). Carbon dioxide gas, for example, is not always considered organic just because it contains carbon.

Even if you did consider carbonates organic (in the less technical sense); what about the metal oxides (metal ions 'chemically bonded' to oxygen), silicates and other non-carbonaceous inorganic salts in rock phospate, basalt, granite, etc.? How much carbon is in rock dust? Not very much.

For more than 200 years, chemists have divided compounds into two categories. Those that were isolated from plants or animals were called organic, while those extracted from ores and minerals were inorganic. Organic chemistry is often defined as the chemistry of carbon. But this definition would include calcium carbonate (CaCO3) and graphite, which more closely resemble inorganic compounds. We will therefore define organic chemistry as the study of compounds, such as formic acid (HCO2H), methane (CH4), and vitamin C (C6H8O6), that contain both carbon and hydrogen.

The chemistry of carbon is dominated by three factors.

1. Carbon forms unusually strong C-C single bonds, C=C double bonds, and carbon-carbon triple bonds.

2. The electronegativity of carbon (EN = 2.55) is too small to allow carbon to form C4- ions with most metals and too large for carbon to form C4+ ions when it reacts with nonmetals. Carbon therefore forms covalent bonds with many other elements.

3. Carbon forms strong double and triple bonds with a number of other nonmetals, including N, O, P, and S

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Not all compounds are salts- salts are only formed between metal/nonmetal particles or polyatomic ions with specific differences in electronegativity. Ca is always a metal. Oxides are not salts, but they also are not "organic" and might not have any carbon at all. What are your definitions of salt, bonding and organic, anyways?

Then what about cyanide-containing compounds? These can be inorganic, or organic (e.g. nitriles). The polyatomic cyanide ion contains carbon triple bonded to nitrogen, but no metals. They can be synthetic (lab made), or totally natural. Cyanide compounds are abundant in nature: bacteria, plants, fungi. Such compounds are found in the seeds of tree fruit, and in abundance. Are inorganic cyanide compounds actually organic if they were made by living things? Are organic cyanide compounds actually inorganic if they were made in a laboratory?
Or is the technical scientific definition of "organic" only applicable when it suites you?

And iodized table salt contains minute quantities of iodine to prevent deficiencies (as potassium iodide/iodate or sodium iodide/iodate). It varies in no other manner whatsoever, the sodium chloride it contains is still sodium chloride. Sea salt is still sodium chloride (from the ocean, without fortification). Sodium chloride is sodium chloride is sodium chloride.

edta. It bonds metal ions together. Bam!

I love bud <3

hyroot said:

edta. It bonds metal ions together. Bam!

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Know what also "bonds metal ions together"? Humic, fulvic, and organic acids. Bam! Bam!

Those would be natural chelating agents, which do [almost] the same thing as synthetic chelating agents (stick to metal/mineral ions to make them more plant available- not really bind them together, which would imply solely metal ions branching linearly or in some fashion with other metal ions). Except organic acids, humic and fulvic acids are taken up by the plant (increase mobility with the plant), and probably have less affinity for heavy metals than EDTA.

So sorry what was your point again? Still waiting for your definitions of "organic", "bonding" and "salt". Also still waiting for you to point out where I quoted wikipedia or "other forums".

Like, I really love bud.

Me too. Me. Too.

And God I wish I had me some of that shit that hyroot is smoking because DAMN.

edta is a man made acetate that not only bonds metal ions but also creates inorganic salts. Humic acid is the end result of composting.


EDTA ( d -t - )
n.
Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid; a crystalline acid that acts as a strong chelating agent and that forms a sodium salt used as an antidote for metal poisoning and as an anticoagulant.
The American Heritage® Medical Dictionary Copyright © 2007, 2004 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
EDTA
A colorless compound used to keep blood samples from clotting before tests are run. Its chemical name is ethylene-diamine-tetra-acetic acid.
Mentioned in: Platelet Count
Gale Encyclopedia of Medicine. Copyright 2008 The Gale Group, Inc. All rights reserved.
EDTA,
1 abbreviation for ethylene-diamineteraacetic acid (edetic acid).
2 abbreviation for edetate calcium disodium.
Mosby's Medical Dictionary, 8th edition. © 2009, Elsevier.

Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid, widely abbreviated as EDTA (for other names, see Table), is an aminopolycarboxylic acid and a colourless, water-soluble solid. Its conjugate base is named ethylenediaminetetraacetate. It is widely used to dissolve limescale. Its usefulness arises because of its role as a hexadentate ("six-toothed") ligand and chelating agent, i.e., its ability to "sequester" metal ions such as Ca2+ and Fe3+. After being bound by EDTA, metal ions remain in solution but exhibit diminished reactivity. EDTA is produced as several salts, notably disodium EDTA and calcium disodium EDTA.


I'm still waiting for you to prove GO is organic. You have yet do so.

Man, I love bud!

This conversation is above my pay grade, but here's my take...

To me, the definition of an organic gardening product is something that has to be processed by the soils microbes in order for it to become plant available. If something can be added to your soil and be directly taken up by the plant then it is not "organic".

I try to keep things as organic as possible, but I tend to side with Nullis on this one. I don't think it's the end of the world if someone chooses to use organic bottled products. I used the GO line myself for a couple rounds. Having done both I prefer amending my own soil, but I don't think that folks should be scolded for doing something that you aren't. Put the info out there, and if people choose to try it then great, if not no big deal