Confused about NPK ratios and PPM

anomolies

Well-Known Member
Why is it that some nutrients have normal / low NPK ratios such as Humboldt Oneness or Flora Micro / Bloom.

But then you look at another nutrient such as FoxFarm Soluble Nutrients and they have NPK ratios of 5-45-19 and 0-50-30.

WTF? won't this burn the hell out of your plants? btw I don't have a ppm meter but I use R.O water.

Can someone explain NPK values in relation to PPM? This is something I'm having difficulty grasping on my own.

Say a nutrient lists 5-1-1 for the NPK value and suggests 1 tsp per gallon.
Does this mean that every gallon contains 5-1-1 ? What if it suggests 2 tsp per gallon?
 

smallclosetgrowr

Well-Known Member
Say a nutrient lists 5-1-1 for the NPK value and suggests 1 tsp per gallon.
Does this mean that every gallon contains 5-1-1 ? What if it suggests 2 tsp per gallon?
yes , if u got something like 30/38/28 then im thinking its obviously more concentrated but your dosage is going to be less.
 

anomolies

Well-Known Member
Yea I thought that too but I still don't get it because if you got something like 5-1-1 which suggests 1 tsp per gallon

and 0-50-30 which also suggests 1 tsp per gallon...

how is the dosage less?
 

That 5hit

Well-Known Member
first things first
if your going to do hydro
you must have a digital ppm and ph meter
it pays for it self
and you dont have to get a high end model just make sure it is
one that is waterproof and has a replaceable probe
and should be able to tell you the pH range 1-14 and ppm range 1-1999


get some hydro specific nutes (non-hydro nutes can successfully be used in some setups)
when picking nutes (fertilizer)NPK try to keep it simple
for veg pick a nute high in N and low in PK
for flowering pick a nute high in P and low in NK
N: nitrogen is used to stimulate new vegetative growth and overall health.
P2O5: phosphorus oxide is used to stimulate flower development and rooting.
K2O: potassium oxide is used to stimulate stem growth and overall health
 

anomolies

Well-Known Member
i'm doing soil & coco (run seperately)
yea i'm saving for a truncheon bluelab (or maybe I'll just buy a $30 non-waterproof HM digital)

Right now I'm trying to figure out this NPK thing but so far no one has been able to explain it in a straight-forward manner.

That 5hit I appreciate you trying to help but your reply has no relevance to what I'm asking whatsoever.
I don't want to be told what to give my plants, I want to understand exactly what it is I'm giving my plants and in what amounts / ratios.

Anyone else want to give it a try?
 

jondamon

Well-Known Member
Usually the higher the numbers the more concentrated the NPK is therefore the less you have to use to mix up your nutes.

The actuall ppm's you wont grasp until you get a PPM meter but you can test it once you have got one. You can mix up a tsp of for eg 5-1-1 into a gallon and test the ppm
And then mix 1tsp of your 50-10-10 and test it. You will usually see that the 50-10-10 will have a higher ppm count than the 5-1-1.

At least this is what i am lead to believe.

Personally i dont use ppm's i use EC (electrical conductivity) THis is a more universally accepted way of testing strength as PPM's can mean lots of different values for EC. Most nutrient bottles have an EC rating listed on it. BUt 1 EC can mean 600ppm or 650ppm or 700ppm or even 750ppm depending on where you are in the world. BIt confusing using ppm's if you ask me.

I hope this goes someway to explaining it you a little more.

J
 

gobbly

Well-Known Member
if I remember correctly, the values given for N-P-K are teaspoons per gallon, with a gallon being 768 teaspoons. This lets you build a formula for ppm, something like [10*(N/P/K value)]/(768/1000). Same formula for each value, sum the 3 resulting formula to find the total PPM of fert. From what I understand, N-P-K listing on ferts are a min value, so yours could be higher, this is a great reason to have your own way of testing :)

If you know your target values of each, a little math will tell you how concentrated a fert you should get.
 

anomolies

Well-Known Member
yea I heard EC is a better measure as well. I've looked everywhere and I can't even find an EC guide for growing plants that tells you how much EC you need or how to take measurements and such..
I also heard EC meters don't work well for soil grows when mixing your nutrient solution... true / false?

PPM I understand a bit, but what I would like to know is when people have a target of like 1500-2000 PPM, is that purely from the NPK?
Does this mean you can add as much additives like Humic acid without burning your plants, even if it reaches like 5000 PPM from adding non-plant food additives?

So far no hydro store owner has been able to explain it to me either. They all just say "follow the feeding schedule."
But I don't want it done for me, I want to understand exactly what I'm giving my plants so that I can tweak it to give my plants the most they can take.
Because if I follow a feeding schedule suggested by a company, most likely the only way I'll know when I'm giving them too much is when I burn them, and burning your plants is not fun. It's also a bitch to flush out multiple 3-5 gallon pots.

Using half the suggested feeding amount I don't prefer either, because then you won't ever know if you're under feeding your plants or if you're even giving them the right ratio of NPK.

I thought the NPK ratios listed on most nutrients were 1 tsp per gallon as well but isn't 0 - 50 - 30 absolutely crazy? I just don't understand how plants can take such a high concentration of NPK when most other nutrients are like 4 - 10 - 5 or somethin.

Does that mean the nutrients with lower NPK aren't giving your plants as much as they can take or what?
 

anomolies

Well-Known Member
Also, wtf does the 100N-100P-200K-60MG mean? are those ppm numbers?

Recommended Profile Target
Where the 100N-100P-200K-60Mg target profile relates to General Hydroponics Flora Series 3 part liquid fertilizer products, the same profile can be mixed without using any of the GH Grow component. If one carefully reads the labels, he'll find the Micro component actually contains more N than the Grow, and the Grow component contains nothing else that isn't already contained in the Micro and Bloom components. Substituting a little more of the Micro component to make up for the missing Grow precludes the use of the Grow component altogether.
 

gobbly

Well-Known Member
I looked it up again, and I was correct, N-P-K is tsp per gallon. There are a few reasons for different strengths, mainly that different plants need different levels of nutrients, and this can change by stage as well. So not all fertz are made to grow pot, I think that might be part of your confusion. Also if it has a higher concentration, that just means you end up using less. So lets say you do the math and want x-y-z ppm of n-p-k. You calculate out a ratio, say you want 3 part n to 1 part p to 4 part k, look for something in this range, and find a fert close to that. Then adjust your dosage based on what they are telling you will lead to the listed PPM... This is all just basic algebra really.
edit: also, from thinking about it, time release ferts might also high higher amounts, but just last longer in soil. Most hydro ferts are not time release though.

You usually start with half strength and work your way up till either you are where you want to be, or the plants respond negatively. Always test changes on one plant first, see how it responds in time. If all goes well you can then mimic that change in all your plants. Also keep in mind that different ferts are different. I suspect that hydro fets are probably more pure, and use distilled water as an inactive ingredient. Other ferts have loads of stuff other than NPK, some you won't get told on the bottle. If you've ever seen fish emulsion I'd imagine, in addition to npk, it has a lot of other stuff. Smells terrible, hehe.

I am used to TDS meters, but EC meters are commonly used as well. You should be able to find a conversion chart for EC in water to TDS (which is in PPM), this is a VERY common application. You don't really need info specific to plants, as they are used for many different applications, that might be why you had trouble finding info.
 

anomolies

Well-Known Member
Thanks. Yea, you're right, for some reason I had the mentality that every nutrient out there was for growing weed hahaha. Now it makes sense. Silly me.
(the Advanced Nutrients / Humboldt Nutrients line-up confuses me though. How are people able to use the entire line-up without burning their plants?)

Still got unanswered questions though, I would prefer not to have to make one thread per question...

1) Somewhere I heard that EC meters don't work well for soil grows to measure your nutrient solution because it doesn't conduct or somethin... true / false?

2) Will an EC meter take the guess-work out of feeding? I want to give my plants as much as they can eat without burning them, because usually my plants grow really slow and I never know if I'm underfeeding them or if I'm gonna burn them.

3) PPM I understand a bit, but what I would like to know is when people have a target of like 1500-2000 PPM, is that purely from the NPK?
Does this mean you can add as much additives like Humic acid without burning your plants, even if it reaches like 5000 PPM from adding non-plant food additives?

4) If PPM and EC can be derived from each other, why is EC better?
I'm trying to decide whether to buy a $30 EC meter or a BlueLab Truncheon.
(why does a meter need to readout in EC and PPM? what's the point of that?)

5) What does 100N-100P-200K-60MG mean? are these ppm numbers?

<LI id=post_4420592 class="postbitlegacy postbitim postcontainer">
Recommended Profile Target
Where the 100N-100P-200K-60Mg target profile relates to General Hydroponics Flora Series 3 part liquid fertilizer products, the same profile can be mixed without using any of the GH Grow component. If one carefully reads the labels, he'll find the Micro component actually contains more N than the Grow, and the Grow component contains nothing else that isn't already contained in the Micro and Bloom components. Substituting a little more of the Micro component to make up for the missing Grow precludes the use of the Grow component altogether.
If I follow a feeding schedule suggested by a company, most likely the only way I'll know when I'm giving them too much is when I burn them, and burning your plants is not fun. It's also a bitch to flush out multiple 3-5 gallon pots.

Using half the suggested feeding amount I don't prefer either, because then you won't ever know if you're under feeding your plants or if you're even giving them the right amount of NPK.



 

gobbly

Well-Known Member
1) Somewhere I heard that EC meters don't work well for soil grows to measure your nutrient solution because it doesn't conduct or somethin... true / false?
These are used to measure dissolved content in water. EC meters in particular are measuring the electric conductivity of the water (I believe this is potential, but I could be wrong). I have never seen a TDS or EC meter for soil. Though I have seen devices to measure the fertility of soil (NPK levels), just have no idea how they work.

2) Will an EC meter take the guess-work out of feeding? I want to give my plants as much as they can eat without burning them, because usually my plants grow really slow and I never know if I'm underfeeding them or if I'm gonna burn them.
Yes, but this is not an endeavor of formulas and clear cut rules. This plant has wildly different genetics from strain to strain, and can exhibit a wide range of recessive traits that will make many situations unique. Meters will tell you exactly what your concentration of nutrients in solution is, no more no less. They will not tell you what your plant needs.

4) If PPM and EC can be derived from each other, why is EC better?
I'm trying to decide whether to buy a $30 EC meter or a BlueLab Truncheon.
(why does a meter need to readout in EC and PPM? what's the point of that?)
I'm not sure one is any better than another, though I can tell you that in water filtration (and from what I gather about hydroponics) , TDS is more common. They are measuring things differently though, and I don't really know what a TDS meter uses to determine PPM. EC's are used for other things as well. For instance, when measuring salinity in an impure sample, a TDS meter isn't very useful (it will measure calcium, and all sorts of things other than salt), however you can use an EC, because salt in the water has a direct correlation to conductivity, and therefore is measurable using an EC. At the same time you could also use a specific gravity meter, or even a refractometer which looks at how the salt changes the spectrum of light traveling through the solution. All are simply different ways of measuring the same thing, and some could have different applications (specific gravity is used to measure a lot of things). For your application, I really don't think there is a big difference. I would just make sure that whatever you get is high quality. I can also tell you EC's have been around longer, and are used more often in commercial green houses.

5) What does 100N-100P-200K-60MG mean? are these ppm numbers?
Wouldn't that just mean an N-P-K of 100-100-200, and a mag of 60, the way it's written makes me think tsp/gallon again.

If I follow a feeding schedule suggested by a company, most likely the only way I'll know when I'm giving them too much is when I burn them, and burning your plants is not fun. It's also a bitch to flush out multiple 3-5 gallon pots.

Using half the suggested feeding amount I don't prefer either, because then you won't ever know if you're under feeding your plants or if you're even giving them the right amount of NPK.
I understand your desire to do everything you can, but this is simply something you have to learn by experience, and keep faith. This plant has been cultivated and spread throughout the world for longer than we have records. It has evolved over millennial to almost every habitable environment on the planet. The genetic diversity is incredible, and recently a lot of very specialized breeding has been done, mixing up these genetics even more. Feeding schedules are guidelines, not the formula for perfect plants. Oftentimes they don't even tell you what type of plants their instructions are for, and needs can vary dramatically from species to species.

The more you get experience with this species, and in particular, the strains you are dealing with, you will get better and better at reading the plant and knowing what it needs. If you are diligent you can spot deficiencies quickly and correct them before they have had any effect on the plant, the more you do it, the better you get at it. It is ALWAYS better to slightly under fert and respond to the first sign of a deficiency than it is to nute burn a plant. Nute burn seems to be more common than deficiencies (not couting PH related deficiencies which seem to be very common).

I also am not convinced that under fertilizing will significantly effect growth without any signs of a deficiency. Personally my plants seem to do well in a range of N-P-K concentrations, but once overdone, they burn fast, and can get really damaged.

Last, but not least, plants need to get used to ferts, so starting at 1/2 strength and moving to full strength slowly might work perfectly, when starting at full strength might have burned your plants.
 

anomolies

Well-Known Member
thanks again!

Yea what I meant was I read in an old post (cant remember where) and someone said that EC meters are useful for measuring reservoir tanks but not for measuring your nutrient solution that you mix up to water soil plants.. but didn't say why...

I realize that different strains require different amount of nutrients, but having an EC meter is a good starting point right?
My first grow I did pretty good without ever measuring PH or anything. Any deficiencies or signs of burn I was quickly able to correct. Only time I burned a few of them severely was because I didn't closely monitor my plants for a few days and started using tap instead of R.O. water (which later found out has a PH of 8, so I attribute the nute burn to lock-out (which leads to salt buildup i think?). I also might have fed them two times in a row by accident and caused salt build-up.

Also, that 100N-100P-200K "ratio" I got off a link from the Lucasformula.com website and it's related to MJ growing so... I'm confused... cus I've seen people use this high NPK notation with different numbers on other forums.

5-10-5 means every teaspoon you'll find 5% nitrogen 10% P, 5% K (with the other 80% being inert solution)?

So in 100-100-200 per teaspoon you get 100% N, 100% P, 200% K? How's this even possible?
 

gobbly

Well-Known Member
Yea what I meant was I read in an old post (cant remember where) and someone said that EC meters are useful for measuring reservoir tanks but not for measuring your nutrient solution that you mix up to water soil plants.. but didn't say why...
we might be reaching the end of my knowledge on the specifics of measuring dissolved substances, but the only thing I can think of is that with hydro nutrients you are dealing with rather pure, highly soluble sources (to my understanding). Some soil ferts will be time release, and organic sources often require some sort of reaction in the soil to make them soluble to the plant. Many have all sorts of things besides N-P-K, some of that stuff isn't on the label. Any of these things could be changing the concentration of dissolved solids.

I realize that different strains require different amount of nutrients, but having an EC meter is a good starting point right?
Some way to measure dissolved solids is extremely handy. Once you have a handle on what your plants need you can use these values to get it all perfect every time. Just keep in mind every plant is different, so always be diligent in monitoring for issues.

I started using tap instead of R.O. water (which later found out has a PH of 8, so I attribute the nute burn to lock-out (which leads to salt buildup i think?).
PH shock (any sudden change in PH) can cause reactions in and of itself. Lockout means that it isn't getting nutrients (even though they are accessible in the soil), so it's not really a nut burn situation. It, however, can lead to salt buildup, and that's something that you have to flush for.

Also, that 100N-100P-200K "ratio" I got off a link from the Lucasformula.com website and it's related to MJ growing so... I'm confused... cus I've seen people use this high NPK notation with different numbers on other forums.

5-10-5 means every teaspoon you'll find 5% nitrogen 10% P, 5% K (with the other 80% being inert solution)?

So in 100-100-200 per teaspoon you get 100% N, 100% P, 200% K? How's this even possible?
Few links that might give more info:
http://cannabis.com/growing/ph-How_do_I_figure_out_the_ppm_of_my_fertilizer_mix.html
http://www.420magazine.com/forums/how-grow-marijuana/72213-converting-fertilizer-npk-ratings-ppm-teaspoons-per-gallon.html
http://www.firstrays.com/fertcalc.htm
 

desch

Member
thanks again!

Yea what I meant was I read in an old post (cant remember where) and someone said that EC meters are useful for measuring reservoir tanks but not for measuring your nutrient solution that you mix up to water soil plants.. but didn't say why...

I realize that different strains require different amount of nutrients, but having an EC meter is a good starting point right?
My first grow I did pretty good without ever measuring PH or anything. Any deficiencies or signs of burn I was quickly able to correct. Only time I burned a few of them severely was because I didn't closely monitor my plants for a few days and started using tap instead of R.O. water (which later found out has a PH of 8, so I attribute the nute burn to lock-out (which leads to salt buildup i think?). I also might have fed them two times in a row by accident and caused salt build-up.

Also, that 100N-100P-200K "ratio" I got off a link from the Lucasformula.com website and it's related to MJ growing so... I'm confused... cus I've seen people use this high NPK notation with different numbers on other forums.

5-10-5 means every teaspoon you'll find 5% nitrogen 10% P, 5% K (with the other 80% being inert solution)?

So in 100-100-200 per teaspoon you get 100% N, 100% P, 200% K? How's this even possible?
Do a google search to find specifics on this but from my studying NPK ratios are exactly that, ratios.

That 100-100-200 is the equivalent of 1-1-2

The ratio according to Fatman7574 (banned member) that is best for mj plants is 3-1-2

NPK will not give you a measure of ppm as that takes in account everything that is in the water solution. I dont want to give inaccurate information but from my experience you basically have to do trial and error to get exacts of ppm per gallon. You will need a ppm meter.
 

anomolies

Well-Known Member
oh, this is where I see people using those ratios like 100-100-200

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=66541

ah so I was right.. those are PPM's of the NPK..
desch I guess your post is half incorrect cus that 100-100-200 is derived from the following formula:

one teaspoon (5ml) of a given fertilizer in a gallon of water
(10xN)÷ 0.768 = ppm
(10xN)/0.768 = 100 ppm

It still maintains the original ratio, except in PPM, but the NPK wouldn't be 1-1-2. Too lazy to do the math.

.
I was playing around with that calculator you posted gobbly.. Seems like Lucas Formula (with RO water) only has around 300 ppm of combined NPK.. so where does the other 700 ppm come from with people who try to get the target 1000 ppm / 1200 ppm or whatever it was? trace minerals?

When your ppm goes too high what exactly causes nute burn? Is it the concentration of NPK?
 

mj320002

Well-Known Member
Ok let me try to answer some of your questions.

First off EC and PPM are measured in the same way and aren't totally accurate. When you measure EC the meter just runs a small current through the solution and measures the resistance. Since the nutrient solution is made up of all different kinds of stuff the readings will be different depending on what's in the solution.

EC stands for Electrical Conductivity. When you get a meter that reads in ppm all it's doing is taking the EC measurement and converting it. The problem with ppm's is the conversion factor for different substances. 500 ppm's of nitrogen gives a different reading then 500 ppm's of phosphorous do to their different abilities to conduct electricity. So basically unless your nutes tell you what conversion you need to use and you can set it on your meter then the numbers you get are useless other than for personal records. Also when you go from grow to bloom the numbers won't be comparable.

When looking at ppms you need to include all the macro and micro nutrients. So if you have like 500 ppm of npk and 2000 of whatever else it will still burn the plant and cause problems.

Now for NPK. It's just a ratio basically. 3-1-2 is the best ratio for foliage production in lots of plants mj included. That ratio isn't good for seedlings and new plants though. You want more phosphorous for rooting early on. Then of course when you flower you want less N and more k. You also need to make sure you are getting all the micro nutrients as well in proper ratios.

The best thing to do is to find some complete and well balanced nutes then watch your plants. Start off giving them a little and if they look good stay with that. If they start to look a little deficient give them a little bit more. If they burn a little pull it back. It's all about balance really. I hope that was a basic enough explanation and answered some questions.

Lastly don't waste money on tons of additives. Go with the company that gives you a complete nutrient with maybe one or two additives. Basically steer clear of companies like advanced nutrients who use BS marketing to sell tons of products and make lots of money when it could all be in one or two simple bottles. Those NPK you mentioned earlier are good examples. o-50-100 or crap like that is unnecessary and can easily burn your plant.
 

anomolies

Well-Known Member
yea I knew that EC and PPM measure the same way. I don't understand why people choose a PPM meter over an EC meter though.

Yea I wish I hadn't spent money on additives. I have Humboldt Nutrients Humbolt (humic acid), Humboldt Nutrients Flavorful (fulvic acid), Humboldt Nutrients Prozyme, Humboldt Nutrients Ginormous, AN Voodoo Juice, Humboldt Nutrients ES Honey.

haha, who knows... some of this stuff might be useful... but I may be switching to coco for next grow so I wonder which of these additives will still have any use.
In the future when I have my base nutrients dialed in I'll do a control and see if there's any difference.

oh yea, SPL1 on this forum uses MG Bloom Booster (15-30-15)
with Humboldt Nutrients Ginormous (0-18-16) both at the rate of 1 tsp per gallon.
That's (15-48-31) ... don't understand how that does not burn his plants?
 
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