Cloning From Feminized Seeds - Is It Possible, Difficult or Impossible?

mccumcumber

mccumcumber

Well-Known Member
I suggest some people look into natural selection and the basics of genetics before answering a question.

YES, it is true that fem seeds come from hermies. Why is that? Because your pollen (male component) is coming from a female so it has a XX chromosome. Your flowers, where the pollen goes (calyxes specifically), also has a XX chromosome. There is no XY male pollen, so there is no chance that the seed will be male. Cool!

How do breeders achieve a hermy? Well, there are really three ways to do this. First off, they have a seed with hermied genetics. It is more likely than not that seeds from this strain will produce hermies. You get your 5 or 10 pack or however the fuck they sell them and you get all females at first... but then 4/5 are hermies... bummer!

Second, You use colloidal silver on a female plant. This causes pollen sacks to grow on your plant. Now, from bio 101 we know that Darwin proved that a mutation that an organism was not born with is not hereditary. So will this seed have hermy genetics? Not unless it had them to begin with.

Third, you just let your plant sit past harvest and eventually as a survival mechanism it will grow pollen sacks. Same Darwin argument from before applies.

Apparently if you do stress a plant enough it will hermy no matter what. I don't really know how true this is because I don't get into the practice of stressing my plants during flowering. I prefer to get the most out of my flowers. But this whole mumbo jumbo about all feminized seeds having hermy genetics is just silly. Now, I would not suggest breeding with a feminized seed cause your playing around with too many variables imo, but as far as making a feminized plant your mother plant, why the fuck not?

However, if you really want to do it right, you'll sprout about 1k regular beans and pick the best 10 out of those 1k. Take a clone off of each, flower that clone to see the sex, and keep the best female as a mother. That's how you can make sure that you are growing out a good strain imo. How do you do that? Breed your own fucking strain. You'll end up with 10k+ seeds easy on one fucking plant (if done outdoor), finding one extremely dank plant in a batch of 10k really isn't that hard.
 
FarmerJJ

FarmerJJ

Member
hoagtech said:
kbo ca said:
hoagtech said:
A plant that is stressed into flowering too early will become a hermaphrodite.
Are you kidding me? what is wrong with you people thats just how its done! look it up heres a link:http://forum.grasscity.com/absolute-beginners/98048-creating-feminized-seeds.html

Its the only one I could find on the fly, but thats just how its done, I dont know how else fem seeds are made. But when you buy a fem seed, you have much higher risk of it becoming herm. I cant change the way things work. earth is round and fem seeds are produced from stress.
Click to expand...
Colloidal silver? Thats a way to make feminized seeds, and i haven't heard of it stressing the plant to make it hermie.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
einsteinus

einsteinus

Active Member
Originally this plant did have both male and female flowers on the same plant -- they call that Monoecious in the biology world also common HEMP was the family (originally thought to be in the HOPS family but recently changed) this was the stuff that was mainly used for fabric and rope However certain strains appeared also to be Dioecious having male and female on seperate plants and man being man and wanting to also get high as well as wear cloths (maybe sometimes rather be high and naked who knows) started to lets call it in a loose way "breed" certain varieties for various phenotypes and also culling (killing) all male plants. Cannibus can and will show sex changes when it communcates with other plants through phermones and decides to fuck itself ....so that the species (sub-species, variety, breed, etc..) will survive..now here is where it gets complicated for those without biology degrees..it was though that in the beginning this plant used sexing via the XX / XY model .. which makes things easy ..as many have said here if you have a BONIFIDE FEMALE PLANT that for some or any reason produces a male flower from not nessessarily stress but if you do get that the POLLEN HAS TO BE XX or XO (meaning it is missing any male component) remeber this pollen came from a TRUE FEMALE plant -- so hence the "feminized seeds" deal is that if you do polinate yourself or another plant that is a bonified female you will have either XX or XO babies----XX would be female XO = is nothing it wouldn't even develope into a seed or if it did would not hatch so any plants that actually did germinate would be in theory 100 Female (however for some reason it's usually 80-90% female and 10-20% will call it other. Here's the kicker -- people that study this stuff think the pot may have a more complicated sex selection then the XX/XY model and this makes sence...no one is doing anything with enough science in it to know what the fuck is going on..thats why femanized seeds in theory is great ( I have made those kind of babies a number of times due to one of my girls feeling the need to grow balls) the problem will always be that when one is given seeds that has no verifiable genectic component that you dont know if you got P1 p2 F1 F2 F3 F4 generation seeds you have these genes running throughout with all kinds of traits - I believe folks make a whole batch of F1 hybrids and some where down the line when you breed back to the original genectics you getting traits that you dont want as in ressisive F2 F3 F4 etc... what people really want is what we call "hybrid vigor" that comes from a marriage of two plants but in this case the union HAS TO BE A real male AND A real female to be a true "F1" These are the plants that grow faster, bigger, better, do everything a bit better and diffrent from their parents....How many people do you know here (besides me and a few pure biologists) would grow a bunch of nice females and then polonate them with many diffrent males just to see what wondeful hybrids come out of it?..sounds nice..a lot of people do that Im sure ..however a lot also keep the genectic pool very small by cloning and back breeding becasue lets face it..we like our smoke and when you do that as a whole it will in time make the entire "variety/strain/sub-species" weaker and/or less able to handle enviromental changes. Of course if you are controlling the environment to the n th degree then it really dosent matter but when you give someone "white widow" seeds that are really 5 or 6 generations down the road and always grown in a greenhouse and someone else has "white widow" seeds that for the last 5 years have been grown only in the emerald triangle up in Norcal they MAY NOT be the same white widows as they originally started out as (called NATURAL SELECTION). In reality there seems to be an almost as important enviromental component to growing as I am sure that with all the growing done here that someone hasent grown R-50 Haze that looked more like Clowns Bubblegum and visa versa...what cracks me up is that when I see places selling seeds I see things like "mostly indica" -- ya like "mostly female" -that tells you what loose a handle this loose group of breeders has on it's own kin how many people here are growing breeding and speading "bag seed" plants genectics I am sure with seeds going for 10 quid 12 euro 15 dollars EACH that if one gets say 200 to 300 or more from an accidental polination your not going to grow those? Thats where I got the best F1 femenized seeds in my life but it took me 3 years to figure that out! after that one plant which was ALRIGHT gave that gift I had 2 or 3 grows in the next years that I just kept saying to myself Darn all them GX seeds always (80-90%) of the time give me early flowering girls- this stuff takes generations upon generations to get it down just like when we breed a tomato that is exactly 1 7/8" to 2" in diameter so they can be machine harvested :lol:
 
D

DQ Blizzard

Active Member
I dropped off the map for about 8 years. When I got back into this scene I was scratching my head "WTF is a feminized seed"? Well as I learned more I came to the conclusion that fem'd seeds were going to be the death of what I love so much, breeding!!!

I only wish I would have stocked up on regular seeds while some of the best strains were available in reg seed form!!
 
mccumcumber

mccumcumber

Well-Known Member
How many people do you know here (besides me and a few pure biologists) would grow a bunch of nice females and then polonate them with many diffrent males just to see what wondeful hybrids come out of it?
Click to expand...
Did you not read the end part of my post?
 
cincity420

cincity420

Well-Known Member
I'm pretty sure they bounce the light cycles of the plants around to make sure they won't hermie before using silver colodial (sp) to make them have male flowers. they aren't herm because its not a herm plants but a female forced to make male pollen sacks.
 
cincity420

cincity420

Well-Known Member
mccumcumber said:
I suggest some people look into natural selection and the basics of genetics before answering a question.

YES, it is true that fem seeds come from hermies. Why is that? Because your pollen (male component) is coming from a female so it has a XX chromosome. Your flowers, where the pollen goes (calyxes specifically), also has a XX chromosome. There is no XY male pollen, so there is no chance that the seed will be male. Cool!

How do breeders achieve a hermy? Well, there are really three ways to do this. First off, they have a seed with hermied genetics. It is more likely than not that seeds from this strain will produce hermies. You get your 5 or 10 pack or however the fuck they sell them and you get all females at first... but then 4/5 are hermies... bummer!

Second, You use colloidal silver on a female plant. This causes pollen sacks to grow on your plant. Now, from bio 101 we know that Darwin proved that a mutation that an organism was not born with is not hereditary. So will this seed have hermy genetics? Not unless it had them to begin with.

Third, you just let your plant sit past harvest and eventually as a survival mechanism it will grow pollen sacks. Same Darwin argument from before applies.

Apparently if you do stress a plant enough it will hermy no matter what. I don't really know how true this is because I don't get into the practice of stressing my plants during flowering. I prefer to get the most out of my flowers. But this whole mumbo jumbo about all feminized seeds having hermy genetics is just silly. Now, I would not suggest breeding with a feminized seed cause your playing around with too many variables imo, but as far as making a feminized plant your mother plant, why the fuck not?

However, if you really want to do it right, you'll sprout about 1k regular beans and pick the best 10 out of those 1k. Take a clone off of each, flower that clone to see the sex, and keep the best female as a mother. That's how you can make sure that you are growing out a good strain imo. How do you do that? Breed your own fucking strain. You'll end up with 10k+ seeds easy on one fucking plant (if done outdoor), finding one extremely dank plant in a batch of 10k really isn't that hard.
Click to expand...
I didn't see this post before i posted, but I would say that is spot on true.
 
jason1976

jason1976

Well-Known Member
its no different. i do it all the time. tangerine dreams clones great. as does kandy kush and burmese kush all fem seeds i have mothers of all three...
 
Guile

Guile

Active Member
I currently run about 2 dozen strains.. I would say that atleast 1/4 of my mothers were born from feminized seeds (or are more accurately clones of plants born of them).

You clone plants from mothers born of feminized seeds exactly the same as you would any other clone and you should have success on par with normal reasonable expectations. (sometimes plants are hard to clone and you have to work with them the best you can).

I have never accidentally hermaphrodited a plant and I certainly haven't experienced an inproportionate ratio of hermaphrodites from cloning a mother born from feminized seeds (as I haven't experienced a single one, seriously how prevalent is this? It has to be a bigger threat than reality).
I buy feminized seeds whenever available and only settle for "regular" seeds otherwise. I admit I see the value of "regular" seeds in a breeding program however outside of that they seem inefficient to me.

2 of the best preforming strains I currently work with are derived from feminized seeds and both clone reasonably well, though some strains i work with clone better it is just the way of things (you are not going to find a resilient easy to clone plant that is low oder, produces huge yields, a mind blowing buzz, and grows easily in crawlspaces/knee-walls).. But if you have reasonable expectations you can get clones from feminized plants...
 
EnWhyCee

EnWhyCee

Member
Guile said:
you are not going to find a resilient easy to clone plant that is low oder, produces huge yields, a mind blowing buzz that grows easily in crawlspaces/knee-walls
Click to expand...
if only!

I agree about the chance of herms being way hyped by people, I only just started growing but it seems like something people spend a disproportionate amount of time worrying about.
 
A

althor

Well-Known Member
hoagtech said:
No. Its just different from a non femmed seed because it came from a stressed mother to produce that seed, meaning you have a high chance of you clones herming from a feminized seed. If you get a non sexed seeds and flower them early then the clones from your females will be all female with less of a chance of going herm because their seeds werent created from stress

Low ryders are hard to clone.
Click to expand...

So wrong it should have never been typed out. Do some research before spreading wrong propoganda.



You can clone from feminized seeds the same as any plant.
 
F

Feroce

Well-Known Member
I've taken cuts from a femmed plant (Sannies Sugar Punch) with no problems at all. In fact, they were usually the first to root.
 
jeeba

jeeba

Well-Known Member
Every clone Ive ever taken was off of a feminized plant.I wish I could say I had a 100% root rate I dont.But I have succesfully cloned and flowered from feminized mother!About 70% success rate on cloning most deaths due to human error.
 
Guile

Guile

Active Member
jeeba said:
Every clone Ive ever taken was off of a feminized plant.I wish I could say I had a 100% root rate I dont.But I have succesfully cloned and flowered from feminized mother!About 70% success rate on cloning most deaths due to human error.
Click to expand...
Hey man, anything consistently over 50% is just fine as long as you account for it to start with (just pull twice as many clones as you need). When I say I have high success rates it just means that I eventually get them to root through persistence. Some never thrive and spend the rest of their lives stunted or sickly looking (likely from all the hormones and nutrients I will use in disparity).
 
S

secondshift

Member
Ok then, If you take a clone from a from-seed female that is assumed to not be hermaphrodite and stress it out or whatever you need to do to get it to go hermie and use that to pollenate another clone from the same female, will the seeds created be female or hermie?

Also thinking about it .... It is my opinion that ALL "female" plants are hermaphrodites. The gene that controls production of pollen is easier to turn on in some varieties than in others. ALL females will drop pollen if you know exactly what to do do get it done. I can only imagine that there are two ends of the spectrum where hoagtech has had unstable genetics and his stuff is very easily triggered was at one end and Canon who has stuff that was a lot more stable and harder to turn is at the other Plausible?

Oh Yeah and Pointswest has it right.
 
Guile

Guile

Active Member
secondshift said:
Ok then, If you take a clone from a from-seed female that is assumed to not be hermaphrodite and stress it out or whatever you need to do to get it to go hermie and use that to pollenate another clone from the same female, will the seeds created be female or hermie?

Also thinking about it .... It is my opinion that ALL "female" plants are hermaphrodites. The gene that controls production of pollen is easier to turn on in some varieties than in others. ALL females will drop pollen if you know exactly what to do do get it done. I can only imagine that there are two ends of the spectrum where hoagtech has had unstable genetics and his stuff is very easily triggered was at one end and Canon who has stuff that was a lot more stable and harder to turn is at the other Plausible?

Oh Yeah and Pointswest has it right.
Click to expand...
If you hermaphrodite a plant and breed it to itself (or a non hermaphroditic clone of itself) I believe that you will end up with is a potentially genetically "weak" set of female seeds.. Keep in mind I am not a breeder so I cant even say that much for sure, only speculate..

If that is the case "weak" would mean is just highly influenced by recessive traits (you're inbreeding/fortifying all its bad and good traits). I think breeders attempt to avoid this situation as you can usually find another female that has desirable traits that does not also have a complete carbon copy of the undesirable ones.. Otherwise if there is a recessive trait that leads to hermaphrodisum it could be expressed in particularly hermaphrodite prone seeds..

It may also turn out that kind of inbreeding could bring forth a particularly useful "freak/mutant" that seems to capitalize on the good traits without suffering from bad recessive ones (the rate of occurrence might be quite low though).
 
S

secondshift

Member
Guile said:
If you hermaphrodite a plant and breed it to itself (or a non hermaphroditic clone of itself) I believe that you will end up with is a potentially genetically "weak" set of female seeds.. Keep in mind I am not a breeder so I cant even say that much for sure, only speculate..

If that is the case "weak" would mean is just highly influenced by recessive traits (you're inbreeding/fortifying all its bad and good traits). I think breeders attempt to avoid this situation as you can usually find another female that has desirable traits that does not also have a complete carbon copy of the undesirable ones.. Otherwise if there is a recessive trait that leads to hermaphrodisum it could be expressed in particularly hermaphrodite prone seeds..

It may also turn out that kind of inbreeding could bring forth a particularly useful "freak/mutant" that seems to capitalize on the good traits without suffering from bad recessive ones (the rate of occurrence might be quite low though).
Click to expand...
It seems strange that you would be so pessimistic considering what "we" do... My glass is always half-full. Anyways... you are correct;

you would think that all the beans you get from this process would be identical but they will not. 25% will be something different that the original mother with all the dominants expressed 50% should display dominant traits but carry recessives and 25% will be copies with only recessives expressed.

You grow the new beans out and pick what you like and repeat the process until you have a plant with only the recessives. Eventually you will get 100% beans that are exact copies of the original since there are only recessives to be expressed.

Problem with that is you will never have a true male. You have to use this process with pollen from an actual genetic male until you get all the beans the same. So what you really need to have your own strain is to have a male that carries only the recessives to breed with a female that caries only recessives then all your beans will be geneticall identical with the exception of the sex. And if your shit is good you can enter the cannabis cup lol.
 
Guile

Guile

Active Member
secondshift said:
It seems strange that you would be so pessimistic considering what "we" do... My glass is always half-full. Anyways... you are correct;

you would think that all the beans you get from this process would be identical but they will not. 25% will be something different that the original mother with all the dominants expressed 50% should display dominant traits but carry recessives and 25% will be copies with only recessives expressed.

You grow the new beans out and pick what you like and repeat the process until you have a plant with only the recessives. Eventually you will get 100% beans that are exact copies of the original since there are only recessives to be expressed.

Problem with that is you will never have a true male. You have to use this process with pollen from an actual genetic male until you get all the beans the same. So what you really need to have your own strain is to have a male that carries only the recessives to breed with a female that caries only recessives then all your beans will be geneticall identical with the exception of the sex. And if your shit is good you can enter the cannabis cup lol.
Click to expand...
Dude I want to apologize if I came off harsh (or pessimistically). There was no intent there.. I try to word things in such a way as to make it clear that I am not trying to set a president, (only shearing thoughts or perspectives). I find it quite likely that I choose my wording less than ideally on a far more frequent basis than I would prefer..

Hope I didn't crap up your day, and thanks for the encouragement, I find breeding pretty interesting and hope to explore it a bit in the near future :) (keep smiling)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top