Biden Forgives $20k of Pell Grant

Fogdog said:

lulz, yeah, cars are just like college education.

Oregon has a program that offers tuition free junior college to Oregonians who recently graduated from HS or completed their GED and meet other requirements. Education is a good investment for Oregon's people and its economy. I'd like to see similar for 4 yr state colleges.

I don't understand your bitterness. Also your rant was absurd.

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Students freely accepted the terms of the loans.

Some that had loans worked multiple jobs in order to clear their debt.

Now others that didn't consider repayment a priority should have it wiped clear? And other people are going to be the ones responsible for repaying the loans. You don't understand why people would be bitter? Really?

You do understand that the debt doesn't just get wiped out, right? It's going to be repaid by hard working people that had no part in them taking the loan.

The car example is the same thing. It's a loan. Say you made a poor decision and took a loan on a car that you couldn't or didn't want to repay according to the terms of the loan. Why should anyone else be responsible for your decision?

This is the new world of no self responsibility.

twentyeight.threefive said:

Students freely accepted the terms of the loans.

Some that had loans worked multiple jobs in order to clear their debt.

Now others that didn't consider repayment a priority should have it wiped clear? And other people are going to be the ones responsible for repaying the loans. You don't understand why people would be bitter? Really?

You do understand that the debt doesn't just get wiped out, right? It's going to be repaid by hard working people that had no part in them taking the loan.

The car example is the same thing. It's a loan. Say you made a poor decision and took a loan on a car that you couldn't or didn't want to repay according to the terms of the loan. Why should anyone else be responsible for your decision?

This is the new world of no self responsibility.

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Do you just not pay attention to what is actually being done before you snowflake?

do you imagine people who went to college don’t contribute to our economy or pay taxes?

Fogdog said:

lulz, yeah, cars are just like college education.

Oregon has a program that offers tuition free junior college to Oregonians who recently graduated from HS or completed their GED and meet other requirements. Education is a good investment for Oregon's people and its economy. I'd like to see similar for 4 yr state colleges.

I don't understand your bitterness. Also your rant was absurd.

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It's not bitterness. I think it's stupid to forgive these student loans. Millions of people have taken out student loans and millions of people have paid them back.

It costs money to go to college but the benefit of a college education usually makes the cost worthwhile. If you take out a loan, any kind of loan then you need to pay it back. These people knew they would have to pay it back when they took it and were prepared to do so.

You call it a rant or anything you want. As for cars being like a college education we'll people need that college education to get a good job and they need a car to get to that job so if someone is struggling with student loan debt then they're likely struggling with a car payment as well.

There is absolutely nothing absurd about expecting people to pay their debts. I was 100% for forgiving loans people took out to attend those scammy schools like ITT, Corinthian, etc... But if you attended a decent college and have debt from a student loan then you should pay that back as you were not ripped off and stuck with a worthless piece of paper that isn't worth a damn thing.

You may think I'm bitter and I'm ranting but you're so far off. I know many people that paid back their student loans and this crap just makes them sick. Hell I had a student loan years ago and guess what? I paid it back. Can I get a retroactive check for that?

It's just bullshit giving everything away in a quest for fucking votes which is exactly what this is. If someone is struggling to pay back their student loan then get another job. There are plenty of them out there. I worked 3 jobs at one point in my life. The same people getting their student loans forgiven are the same people getting the latest Iphone as soon as it comes out, eat out at restaurants instead of cooking at home, etc... Poor financial planning should not be rewarded.

Apparently there is much you don't understand or don't seem to care. It's free! Give it to them! They'll vote Democrat! Blah, blah, blah...

twentyeight.threefive said:

Students freely accepted the terms of the loans.

Some that had loans worked multiple jobs in order to clear their debt.

Now others that didn't consider repayment a priority should have it wiped clear? And other people are going to be the ones responsible for repaying the loans. You don't understand why people would be bitter? Really?

You do understand that the debt doesn't just get wiped out, right? It's going to be repaid by hard working people that had no part in them taking the loan.

The car example is the same thing. It's a loan. Say you made a poor decision and took a loan on a car that you couldn't or didn't want to repay according to the terms of the loan. Why should anyone else be responsible for your decision?

This is the new world of no self responsibility.

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It's pure nonsense. Some don't see it that way but those are the same people that want free everything.

I'm sure some are in deep debt after attending a 4 year college and can't make the payments working at Starbucks. But nobody told them to get some worthless Liberal Arts degree in French literature.

As you said, get another job and pay your damn debt. This country is turning into a bunch of freeloaders that won't work and want everything for free. An entire generation of Timmy's. Little timmy was afraid of the ball so they put T-Ball in schools and removed dodgeball. Now the Timmy's can't pay their bills so everyone else has to pay them. 100% unadulterated Bovine dung.

Who will be paying for it and how? Federal government debt is a weird beast. I'm uhhh, still paying my loans to get degrees that say know what I am talking about on that front.

I think yall should get 10k in fun money. I do get the surface level criticism. Yeah it sucks when your towards the end of 20 years...but well, it's pretty self defeating to begrudge people for not dealing with the same hardships you did. It fuckin sucked not having those couple hundred extra bucks a month that would have been the difference between living in the hood in a shithole vs a decent place where the rent was 200-300 more, but why the hell would I want someone else to deal with that.

The same economic forces that allowed us to give massive tax breaks to the wealthy, fund endless war, yadda yadda can also help poor and middle class people. What economic impact did 20 years of Iraqistan have? How does that impact your personal balance book and how is this any different?

twentyeight.threefive said:

Students freely accepted the terms of the loans.

Some that had loans worked multiple jobs in order to clear their debt.

Now others that didn't consider repayment a priority should have it wiped clear? And other people are going to be the ones responsible for repaying the loans. You don't understand why people would be bitter? Really?

You do understand that the debt doesn't just get wiped out, right? It's going to be repaid by hard working people that had no part in them taking the loan.

The car example is the same thing. It's a loan. Say you made a poor decision and took a loan on a car that you couldn't or didn't want to repay according to the terms of the loan. Why should anyone else be responsible for your decision?

This is the new world of no self responsibility.

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There is great irony in this. Republicans gave wealthy people almost two trillion in tax relief that was justified by them using the "it will be a boost to our economy". It was not a morality based argument. It was based upon the false "trickle down" theory. Whether they were playing false or not is not my point. They justified their action based upon an economic value, not a moral one. They said it would generate so much growth that the cost would be more than matched by the benefit. I haven't yet seen an analysis that shows the tax cut was balanced by economic growth or paid for itself though later revenues. I've seen the opposite. Did you support that measure?

So, here it is. Loan relief to people making less than $125,000. Cost of this relief amounts to one-sixth of the tax cut to the wealthy. You are making a moral argument about what people who are not wealthy "should" do. I don't see any value in your argument whatsoever. Your grievance is irrelevant. This is an economic decision. The people who are affected by this measure are also the ones most affected by high inflation right now. This loan forgiveness measure puts more money into their pockets that will be put back into circulation immediately. Not only does it help them stay afloat, the extra cash that circulates in the economy will help to reduce the risk of recession.

If you really cared about people getting freebies, you'd be railing against the benefits going to those who are getting the most benefit while paying the least. That would be the top tier wealthiest people in the US today. Speaking of the moral ground you took. Why is it OK for a wealthy person to get a huge windfall in tax relief?

xtsho said:

It's pure nonsense. Some don't see it that way but those are the same people that want free everything.

I'm sure some are in deep debt after attending a 4 year college and can't make the payments working at Starbucks. But nobody told them to get some worthless Liberal Arts degree in French literature.

As you said, get another job and pay your damn debt. This country is turning into a bunch of freeloaders that won't work and want everything for free. An entire generation of Timmy's. Little timmy was afraid of the ball so they put T-Ball in schools and removed dodgeball. Now the Timmy's can't pay their bills so everyone else has to pay them. 100% unadulterated Bovine dung.

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irrelevant

You are just emoting and being vague again. I don't care about your beliefs.

Fogdog said:

irrelevant

You are just emoting and being vague again. I don't care about your beliefs.

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Likewise

How much would it cost?
According to the University of Pennsylvania’s Wharton Budget Model, one-time maximum debt forgiveness of $10,000 per borrower — for those earning $125,000 per year or less — would cost $329.1 billion over a 10-year budget window.

The study finds that between 69% and 73% of the debt forgiven in this model scenario would go to households in the top 60% of the income distribution in the U.S.

The National Taxpayers Union Foundation also crunched some numbers. Based on a total of under 158 million taxpayers in the U.S. in 2019, the foundation says the plan would cost $2,085.59 per taxpayer.

“There’s a transfer of wealth from the society at large to people who borrowed to go to college right now,” says Andrew Lautz, director of federal policy at the National Taxpayers Union. “That has consequences for consumers. It has consequences for taxpayers.”

What did you think of Yang's UBI proposal? Do you see that as different?

I have zero issues with just giving everyone 10k, do whatever with it.

hanimmal said:

Do you just not pay attention to what is actually being done before you snowflake?

do you imagine people who went to college don’t contribute to our economy or pay taxes?

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Snowflake?

So what about people that didn't go to college or take or out loans? Why should they be responsible for any of that burden?

Let's just cut to the chase.

Republicans are angry about Biden's debt relief measure because the benefit goes to a demographic that is most likely to vote for Democrats. The cost of this program is 1/6th the amount given to far fewer people when they trumpeted their Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017. "Massive tax cuts for the wealthy is prudent while loan forgiveness to the middle class and working poor is a moral outrage".

cry me a river.

twentyeight.threefive said:

Snowflake?

So what about people that didn't go to college or take or out loans? Why should they be responsible for any of that burden?

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Most who didn't go to college don't make enough to pay income taxes.

The vast majority who get through college without taking loans are fortunate to have parents who could afford to help their kids. My kids are in that group. Their education (at state college) is already paid for and in the bank. Regarding myself, I scraped by with some help from my parents and worked to make up the difference. I am one of the few who came from a modest background and came out with an undergraduate degree (Biochemistry) without debt. Then again, though my father had a modest income as a diesel mechanic, I was fortunate to be raise in a stable family by both parents in a suburban California neighborhood with decent educational opportunities throughout my childhood.

I have no issues with what Biden did. Everybody's story is different. Everybody's family is different. If this program helps them, I'm for it. I'd rather take back that tax cut given to the wealthy.

There is a decent argument to be made against this, particularly in this form where the benefit isn't being handed out equally...but curious if we get there!

Fogdog said:

There is great irony in this. Republicans gave wealthy people almost two trillion in tax relief that was justified by them using the "it will be a boost to our economy". It was not a morality based argument. It was based upon the false "trickle down" theory. Whether they were playing false or not is not my point. They justified their action based upon an economic value, not a moral one. They said it would generate so much growth that the cost would be more than matched by the benefit. I haven't yet seen an analysis that shows the tax cut was balanced by economic growth or paid for itself though later revenues. I've seen the opposite. Did you support that measure?

So, here it is. Loan relief to people making less than $125,000. Cost of this relief amounts to one-sixth of the tax cut to the wealthy. You are making a moral argument about what people who are not wealthy "should" do. I don't see any value in your argument whatsoever. Your grievance is irrelevant. This is an economic decision. The people who are affected by this measure are also the ones most affected by high inflation right now. This loan forgiveness measure puts more money into their pockets that will be put back into circulation immediately. Not only does it help them stay afloat, the extra cash that circulates in the economy will help to reduce the risk of recession.

If you really cared about people getting freebies, you'd be railing against the benefits going to those who are getting the most benefit while paying the least. That would be the top tier wealthiest people in the US today. Speaking of the moral ground you took. Why is it OK for a wealthy person to get a huge windfall in tax relief?

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No idea why you have to bring Republicans into this? It's a discussion of morality, or at least it should be. Do the right thing. You accepted terms of a loan, and YOU should be responsible for it, no one else.

As for the ~$2 trillion in tax relief to the wealthy I would absolutely not support that.

I do care about giving out freebies for all involved, especially the wealthy and huge corporations. I never said it was OK, you're putting words in my mouth. Huge corporations make millions or billions and often pay zero taxes due to loopholes and working the system. It's disgusting.

Fogdog said:

most don't make enough to pay income taxes.

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That's simply not true. You're making up statistics now to fit your argument. Pretty sad.

xtsho said:

How much would it cost?
According to the University of Pennsylvania’s Wharton Budget Model, one-time maximum debt forgiveness of $10,000 per borrower — for those earning $125,000 per year or less — would cost $329.1 billion over a 10-year budget window.

The study finds that between 69% and 73% of the debt forgiven in this model scenario would go to households in the top 60% of the income distribution in the U.S.

The National Taxpayers Union Foundation also crunched some numbers. Based on a total of under 158 million taxpayers in the U.S. in 2019, the foundation says the plan would cost $2,085.59 per taxpayer.

“There’s a transfer of wealth from the society at large to people who borrowed to go to college right now,” says Andrew Lautz, director of federal policy at the National Taxpayers Union. “That has consequences for consumers. It has consequences for taxpayers.”

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And do you think that the top 60% of income earners don’t pay more in taxes? And they likely are estimating they are benefitting more since their loans will be well above the cap, and still have several-tens-hundreds of thousands of dollars left to pay off.

twentyeight.threefive said:

Snowflake?

So what about people that didn't go to college or take or out loans? Why should they be responsible for any of that burden?

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This is the same bullshit argument that could be made about anything, why do people in the city have to pay for all those roads/electrical grid out in rural America? Why do we have to keep paying for people who live in Cali/Oregon who keep losing stuff to fires, or people living by rivers that are getting flooded/etc. the Snowflaking is epic, but misplaced.


Bitching that a teacher who worked their ass off to get a degree getting a bit knocked off it is not Going to cost much at all. Shit even though I bet it is mostly bullshit and doesn’t consider a lot of other things (like the interest that is paid on loans), that number posted by xtsho shows it is about what $200 a year, or about $16 bucks a month of the average(. Again it is kind of bullshit since they should have broke it down by tax brackets but they wanted to sensationalize the number) to pay for this, which is offset again by having wealthy actually pay taxes unlike the Republican plan.

I see they don't teach Econ 101 anymore.

twentyeight.threefive said:

That's simply not true. You're making up statistics now to fit your argument. Pretty sad.

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It would be nice if your kind were sometimes right when they insult others about things they know nothing about. But you are wrong.



People who make 37,000/yr, after standard deductions, don't pay income tax. So, cry me a river about those poor overtaxed HS grads. What I'd prefer is we give people who want help a hand up so they can get out of poverty.