Ben Affleck v. Sam Harris on Real Time with Bill Maher

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member

So this clip has generated a lot of controversy lately, I thought it might be interesting to talk about it


Harris' general point is basically that all religions are dangerous, he admits as much in his books and in other interviews discussing Christianity, but Islam is the most dangerous in the world we live in today.

Affleck seems to have a pretty reactionary response to Harris' criticisms of Islam and thinks his comments are racist and bigoted


Imo, Harris is right. While I believe Christianity is detrimental to society and dangerous when taken literally, you don't get targeted for violence if you criticize it or depict Jesus in a cartoon.

Belief in Christianity in itself is dangerous because it stifles an individual's quest for knowledge and diminishes the value of scientific progress, but so does Islam with the added threat of death for disbelief.


So what are your thoughts?
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
After having watched that clip again, Affleck is completely out of line with his questioning. He seemed really dismissive from the start, especially with the "Well I'm glad you're here!" comment as Harris started his interview, and with the hand motions and exclamations of "lotta talking, come on.. " gestures, shit seemed waaaaaay unprofessional..


Harris' blog posts after the fact shed some more light on the issue and how he felt. I'd be interested in hearing how Affleck felt at the end of the interview as well..


http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/can-liberalism-be-saved-from-itself
 

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
Ben Affleck is an idiot. How is he qualified to speak on anything, much less theology and politics? That side of the table could not seem to differentiate between holding ideas in contempt, and holding a race of people in contempt. When we speak of Islam, we are not speaking of any particular race, as there are Muslims of every nationality. It seems ironic that Affleck could not separate the Arabic race from the religion of Islam, yet he hurls ad hominem attacks of racism toward Maher and Harris. The problem that people don't seem to get is that while it is the extremists/fundamentalists of all religions that commit the irrational, destructive acts, it is only made possible by the tacit compliance and approval of the moderates. The moderates hold the same backward, ignorant and hateful beliefs as the extremists, they simply want bring them about in a non-violent way. So, instead of being led down a path of ignorance and hate via violence, they want to use persuasion. Is that really any better??? We'd still end up in the same shitty place...
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
The moderates hold the same backward, ignorant and hateful beliefs as the extremists, they simply want bring them about in a non-violent way.
Fantastic post, man!

This is essentially the crux of Harris' argument; the belief is what causes the violence, not the people, the race, or the nationality. Therefor a legitimate conversation needs to be had about the importance and acceptance of such a belief system in western society.

I am glad there are still people like you on this forum where I can bounce ideas, opinions and thoughts off of and get a legitimate, honest, genuine reply from without arguments or personal attacks

I wonder why the same can't be said for the politics section.. interesting discovery..
 

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
I know what you mean, Pad. I'm always glad to see posts by you and BB, you are the last two original rational people from back when I first joined in 2010. There are a couple new guys that are cool, but too many arrogant clowns that have no idea what objective reality is. It takes training to separate one's emotions from a situation in order to view it rationally, logically, and honestly without bias. Most people seem very emotionally attached to their ideas and beliefs, so when opposing data comes their way they get angry and lash out as if it were a personal attack. Like Z used to say, don't put too much stake in ideas and beliefs, and be ready to drop them like they're hot if adequate opposing evidence is presented...
 

OGEvilgenius

Well-Known Member
Sad that you two are agreeing with an obvious total idiot in Sam Harris. Even Intelligence Agencies disagree with that loon, describing violent Islamists as 'religious preschoolers at best'.

There was a lot of similar anti Jewish propaganda tossed around similar in nature in the 30's that a lot of people ate up as well.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Sad that you two are agreeing with an obvious total idiot in Sam Harris. Even Intelligence Agencies disagree with that loon, describing violent Islamists as 'religious preschoolers at best'.

There was a lot of similar anti Jewish propaganda tossed around similar in nature in the 30's that a lot of people ate up as well.
Calling Harris' xenophobic doesn't refute any of his legitimate arguments. Pointing out the dangers of a dangerous religion doesn't make someone xenophobic, and he even clarifies in the clip in the OP and later blog posts his criticisms refer to a small minority of fundamentalists who carry out terrorist attacks.
 

OGEvilgenius

Well-Known Member
Harris can't take his head from his own ass. Cenk quoted some of his racist bullshit and he went back to his 'polls' and said, well all of Islam does believe that the Quran is the perfect word of God... OK... so what?

Then he quickly suggested that he didn't really mean what was said just that it was true. He's a clown.

Most Christians believe the same of the bible. It's all in interpretation.

I've seen him cite polls from Palestine where they show a large % support suicide bombings... well no fucking shit sherlock. They live in a war zone and are killed in relatively large numbers by Israeli actions far more often than the opposite happens.

His arguments are high school level at best and the statements he makes and general direction he takes things is/are dangerous as hell.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Harris can't take his head from his own ass. Cenk quoted some of his racist bullshit and he went back to his 'polls' and said, well all of Islam does believe that the Quran is the perfect word of God... OK... so what?

Then he quickly suggested that he didn't really mean what was said just that it was true. He's a clown.

Most Christians believe the same of the bible. It's all in interpretation.

I've seen him cite polls from Palestine where they show a large % support suicide bombings... well no fucking shit sherlock. They live in a war zone and are killed in relatively large numbers by Israeli actions far more often than the opposite happens.

His arguments are high school level at best and the statements he makes and general direction he takes things is/are dangerous as hell.
Quote one statement you believe is racist that Harris said, and lets examine that. It's a 3 hour conversation that I watched part of over a month ago

Quote one statement you believe is dangerous
 

OGEvilgenius

Well-Known Member
How about "Muslim Extremism isn't extreme amongst Muslims, the truth about Islam is as politically incorrect as it is terrifying. Islam is all Fringe and No Center "

or

"Unfortunately in the case of Islam, the bad acts or the worst individuals, the jihadists, the murderers of apostates, and the men who treat their wives and daughters like cattle are the best examples of the doctrine in practice."

Seriously, you want to have an intelligent discussion about this guys valid points? Do you even know what he's said and written?

Extremists represent a selfish and power hungry group controlling a pissed off group of authoritarian followers using thin veils of religion taken way out of context and ignoring the parts they don't like to get folks to do things for their own individual benefit.

There was a report released by Western Intelligence Agencies acknowledging as much. And seeing as how western intelligence agencies run most of these extremist operations anyway, they might be in a position to know and understand.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
How about "Muslim Extremism isn't extreme amongst Muslims, the truth about Islam is as politically incorrect as it is terrifying. Islam is all Fringe and No Center "

or

"Unfortunately in the case of Islam, the bad acts or the worst individuals, the jihadists, the murderers of apostates, and the men who treat their wives and daughters like cattle are the best examples of the doctrine in practice."

Seriously, you want to have an intelligent discussion about this guys valid points? Do you even know what he's said and written?

Extremists represent a selfish and power hungry group controlling a pissed off group of authoritarian followers using thin veils of religion taken way out of context and ignoring the parts they don't like to get folks to do things for their own individual benefit.

There was a report released by Western Intelligence Agencies acknowledging as much. And seeing as how western intelligence agencies run most of these extremist operations anyway, they might be in a position to know and understand.
Both of those quotes are completely factual; Islam is as wrong as it is terrifying & the extremists who carry out terrorist attacks are the Muslims closest following the true doctrine of Islam. Similarly, the same could be said for Christians during the crusades

I'm afraid you're wrong, Christianity and Islam both command believers to murder non believers without prejudice;


"And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter... and fight them until fitnah is no more, and religion is for Allah." -Quran 2:191

"They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman." -2 Chronicles 15:12-13

Harris explains that the vast majority of believers in the Muslim world, while not actively partake in carrying out direct terrorism, tacitly support it from "crimes" such as apostasy, adultery, blasphemy, etc. and believe it's the "right thing to do".

That is what's dangerous.

You'll find similar support in certain sects of Christianity here in the United States for sins committed by non believers against God, and multitudes of prejudice and hate for minority groups.

If such things weren't in religious texts to begin with, why would we see so much terrorism committed by Muslims today and so much terrorism committed by Christians in the past?
 

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
How about "Muslim Extremism isn't extreme amongst Muslims, the truth about Islam is as politically incorrect as it is terrifying. Islam is all Fringe and No Center "

or

"Unfortunately in the case of Islam, the bad acts or the worst individuals, the jihadists, the murderers of apostates, and the men who treat their wives and daughters like cattle are the best examples of the doctrine in practice."
You seem to be having the same difficulty as Affleck in separating the the religion of Islam from the Arabic race. Islam is not a race, but a religion made up of all nationalities. The quotes you posted above demonstrate a concern over the Islamic dogma, it has nothing to do with race. Pad asked for a racist statement from Harris, you have yet to present one...

Seriously, you want to have an intelligent discussion about this guys valid points? Do you even know what he's said and written?
I've read A Letter to a Christian Nation and The End of Faith. I agree with almost of his points, his thoughts and writing are clear, insightful and eloquent. Which of his points do you have problems with?

Extremists represent a selfish and power hungry group controlling a pissed off group of authoritarian followers using thin veils of religion taken way out of context and ignoring the parts they don't like to get folks to do things for their own individual benefit.
A agree with some of this statement. I was engaged to a Palestinian girl, and was studying to convert to Islam, as it was a prerequisite for her parents to bless our union. We figured since we were both atheist, what difference would it make? I studied the Qur'an and the Hadiths for over a year, and I can tell you that the goal of Islam is to dominate the world at some point. It is a requirement of the dogma. As I stated in my earlier post, the extremists want to conquer all other religions via violence, the moderates intend to accomplish this via persuasion. Two methodologies to accomplish the same insane, intolerant goal...

There was a report released by Western Intelligence Agencies acknowledging as much. And seeing as how western intelligence agencies run most of these extremist operations anyway, they might be in a position to know and understand.
Please post links to credible sources as an example of what you are stating, it sounds interesting...
 
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OGEvilgenius

Well-Known Member
Your quotes lack context. And ignore other parts where peaceful non invasive members of other religions are to be left alone to let live peacefully.

More over, your own belief system appears to be about as well guided and founded on just as sound principles as the extremists you seem to fear so greatly.

I can throw out quotes from any religion that are concerning if taken on their own. And religious folks in general tend to be more willing to bend to authoritarians, but they are hardly the only ones. See for example the mass slaughter by Communists in various countries of groups who they did not agree with and felt threatened by.

I know Pada in his delusion believes that that was somehow different from a religious slaughter, but that's because he's a part of the same group. And is in fact looking in the mirror (and it's kind of scary).
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Your quotes lack context. And ignore other parts where peaceful non invasive members of other religions are to be left alone to let live peacefully.

More over, your own belief system appears to be about as well guided and founded on just as sound principles as the extremists you seem to fear so greatly.

I can throw out quotes from any religion that are concerning if taken on their own. And religious folks in general tend to be more willing to bend to authoritarians, but they are hardly the only ones. See for example the mass slaughter by Communists in various countries of groups who they did not agree with and felt threatened by.

I know Pada in his delusion believes that that was somehow different from a religious slaughter, but that's because he's a part of the same group. And is in fact looking in the mirror (and it's kind of scary).
If Islam or Christianity are not dangerous dogmas, why throughout human history have people been killed in the name of them?

Why would someone reach such an extreme point of view if the Bible and Quran didn't promote extremism?
 

OGEvilgenius

Well-Known Member
People are the dangerous ones. People prone to not thinking for themselves, being reactionary and easily manipulated by those good at manipulated. Sociopaths and megalomaniacs have run shit for all eternity. And those who are not are easily scared into doing their bidding. It's the human condition as far as I can see it (it's also been confirmed in a lot of psychological and social studies). And it's a bit scary.

See; Communists slaughtering millions of innocent people. Or Christians. Or Muslims. Or Whatever. The common denominator is they are people. And the other common theme is a belief that somehow one group is better than another. A belief you definitely share.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
“We have been sold this meme of Islamophobia, where every criticism of the doctrine of Islam gets conflated with bigotry toward Muslims as people,” and Affleck jumped in for the third time, more or less declaring the mid-show interview over: “Now hold on—are you the person who understands the officially codified doctrine of Islam? You’re the interpreter of that?”
As many have since pointed out, Affleck and Nicholas Kristof then promptly demonstrated my thesis by mistaking everything Maher and I said about Islam for bigotry toward Muslims. Our statements were “gross,” “racist,” “ugly,” “like saying you’re a shifty Jew” (Affleck), and a “caricature” that has “the tinge (a little bit) of how white racists talk about African Americans” (Kristof).

The most controversial thing I said was: “We have to be able to criticize bad ideas, and Islam is the Mother lode of bad ideas.” This statement has been met with countless charges of “bigotry” and “racism” online and in the media. But imagine that the year is 1970, and I said: “Communism is the Mother lode of bad ideas.” How reasonable would it be to attack me as a “racist” or as someone who harbors an irrational hatred of Russians, Ukrainians, Chinese, etc. This is precisely the situation I am in. My criticism of Islam is a criticism of beliefs and their consequences—but my fellow liberals reflexively view it as an expression of intolerance toward people."

"Kristof made the point that there are brave Muslims who are risking their lives to condemn “extremism” in the Muslim community. Of course there are, and I celebrate these people too. But he seemed completely unaware that he was making my point for me—the point being, of course, that these people are now risking their lives by advocating for basic human rights in the Muslim world."

When I told Affleck that he didn’t understand my argument, he said, “I don’t understand it? Your argument is ‘You know, black people, we know they shoot each other, they’re blacks!” What did he expect me to say to this—“I stand corrected”?
Although I clearly stated that I wasn’t claiming that all Muslims adhere to the dogmas I was criticizing; distinguished between jihadists, Islamists, conservatives, and the rest of the Muslim community; and explicitly exempted hundreds of millions of Muslims who don’t take the doctrines about blasphemy, apostasy, jihad, and martyrdom seriously, Affleck and Kristof both insisted that I was disparaging all Muslims as a group. Unfortunately, I misspoke slightly at this point, saying that hundreds of millions of Muslims don’t take their “faith” seriously. This led many people to think that I was referring to Muslim atheists (who surely don’t exist in those numbers) and suggesting that the only people who could reform the faith are those who have lost it. I don’t know how many times one must deny that one is referring to an entire group, or cite specific poll results to justify the percentages one is talking about, but no amount of clarification appears sufficient to forestall charges of bigotry and lack of “nuance.”

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/can-liberalism-be-saved-from-itself

That's a bit of Harris' response to the criticisms of his statements being called "racist", there's much more on his blog of you want to read it
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
People are the dangerous ones. People prone to not thinking for themselves, being reactionary and easily manipulated by those good at manipulated. Sociopaths and megalomaniacs have run shit for all eternity. And those who are not are easily scared into doing their bidding. It's the human condition as far as I can see it (it's also been confirmed in a lot of psychological and social studies). And it's a bit scary.

See; Communists slaughtering millions of innocent people. Or Christians. Or Muslims. Or Whatever. The common denominator is they are people. And the other common theme is a belief that somehow one group is better than another. A belief you definitely share.
I'm afraid I don't share that belief. That belief is perpetuated by religion, I'm an atheist
 

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
When it comes to righteously criticizing Islam, Harris is Mr. Rogers compared to Hitchens. This is a great summary of Islam if you have the time -

 

OGEvilgenius

Well-Known Member
I'm afraid I don't share that belief. That belief is perpetuated by religion, I'm an atheist
And you are sitting here describing how religion is inferior to your current belief system. You can't see the forest from the trees.

Meanwhile your intellectually bankrupt buddy Sam Harris, who is a war mongering ignorant asshole (and with ignorance comes bigotry, which is different from racism as it seems some try to deflect the issue) continues to ignore many pressing points as to the why's and how's and simply blames the whole religion. Do you think you might be more likely to join a fighting group if your family had their house bombed into the ground, regardless of the religious view? Especially if they were the only one with any actual resources (thank you western intelligence agencies and western allies) ? And that because you had your house bombed into the ground, you might be super pissed off at folks you don't identify with who aren't your people who are largely responsible?

His position on everything requires one to overlook important pertinent details on many situations that are important primary causes. It's par for the course for him.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
And you are sitting here describing how religion is inferior to your current belief system. You can't see the forest from the trees.
That doesn't mean I favor one group of people over another, it means I favor good ideas over bad ideas

Meanwhile your intellectually bankrupt buddy Sam Harris, who is a war mongering ignorant asshole (and with ignorance comes bigotry, which is different from racism as it seems some try to deflect the issue) continues to ignore many pressing points as to the why's and how's and simply blames the whole religion.
"Although I clearly stated that I wasn’t claiming that all Muslims adhere to the dogmas I was criticizing; distinguished between jihadists, Islamists, conservatives, and the rest of the Muslim community; and explicitly exempted hundreds of millions of Muslims who don’t take the doctrines about blasphemy, apostasy, jihad, and martyrdom seriously, Affleck and Kristof both insisted that I was disparaging all Muslims as a group. Unfortunately, I misspoke slightly at this point, saying that hundreds of millions of Muslims don’t take their “faith” seriously. This led many people to think that I was referring to Muslim atheists (who surely don’t exist in those numbers) and suggesting that the only people who could reform the faith are those who have lost it. I don’t know how many times one must deny that one is referring to an entire group, or cite specific poll results to justify the percentages one is talking about, but no amount of clarification appears sufficient to forestall charges of bigotry and lack of “nuance.”"

Do you think you might be more likely to join a fighting group if your family had their house bombed into the ground, regardless of the religious view? Especially if they were the only one with any actual resources (thank you western intelligence agencies and western allies) ? And that because you had your house bombed into the ground, you might be super pissed off at folks you don't identify with who aren't your people who are largely responsible?

His position on everything requires one to overlook important pertinent details on many situations that are important primary causes. It's par for the course for him.
I've never read anything that shows Harris supports war against Muslims, he advocates honest intellectual discussion without the automatic labelling of 'racist' which immediately shuts down the conversation. He says when ordinary peaceful people fear for their lives in nations that follow sharia law, it's a problem that needs to be addressed, and he's right. Bad ideas need to be criticized, and criticizing bad ideas does not make you a racist, a bigot, a warmonger or the like.
 
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