8 months, $10,000 and a whole lotta hard work=this...

HGK420 said:

i took Autocad classes in high school and I've messed with it periodically since then. hopefully it'll come back.

i wanna use it to design the pole barn i wanna put up in the spring. any suggestions for hiding its use to the county? do i have to have all the internal walls when i go for a permit? I'm in a pretty rural area with a little tiny one room city hall building lol. i can't imagine its gonna be hard to get a permit but i also just found out there is size restrictions based on lot size so i guess i have no idea. i assume you just said yours was a shed? they ask why it was insulated so much?

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Go ask the city for their provisions for home builders - they should have specific guidelines for what you can build and how to meet code. They are typically very rigid on this unless you're prepared to involve an architect/structural engineer to prove the feasibility of any deviation from said provisions. Also you will find them to be very tough on any new structure that is deemed fit for habitation as opposed to something for storage etc. Affecting this is not what you tell them it is for but what you design: partitions, for example, tend to demonstrate a livable space, not a storage space or shed etc.

You may choose to build with a permit / pass final inspections and then continue to finish to your own spec afterwards, but of course this comes with inherent risk that only you can weigh up. If you go this way there is still every reason to finish the build according to code as best as possible; this is particularly important for things like electrical - so no redneck wiring or some shit!

Building code and permits are there to maintain safety standards, reduce risk to you and neighbors, and ensures occupied structures will last the test of time, but I agree sometimes the rules feel unnecessarily restricting especially when you are trying to do everything by the book.

And yes the square footage restriction is usually a percentage of lot size; ie. the more space you have the bigger your additional structure can be.

one of my medical patients is a current licensed electrician and my dad used to be one 20 years ago and I'm pretty good at pulling wire soo between the 3 of us we got the electrical covered. no worries there.

that was my strategy i think, draw it up open floor plan and build it to that point. get the inspection. tip my hat, and get back to work. we are pretty rural and i have been pouring in and out of my newly purchased home with 2x4's and doors... lol the doors... I've installed 5 EXTERIOR weather sealed doors on grow rooms with 7 other interior doors for various closets and furnace rooms... etc.. and so far no ones said a word..

also had a septic guy tear up my system and clean it all out by hand. hand dug. hand sprayed lol. dudes crew was after it. he wasn't licensed and didn't pull permits so i saved like $6000 at a time when i absolutely had to and we got lucky that day to. like i said pretty rural and I'm cool with all my neighbors so i don't think that would be an issue... just worry about that random county employee out for a jog.

also, it wouldn't be outside of the realm of reality if i labeled it as a storage garage and just left it open floor plan and maybe a bathroom?


also, thanks for the suggestion on the provisions. I'm checkin to see if they are online now.

ruwtz said:

Go ask the city for their provisions for home builders - they should have specific guidelines for what you can build and how to meet code. They are typically very rigid on this unless you're prepared to involve an architect/structural engineer to prove the feasibility of any deviation from said provisions. Also you will find them to be very tough on any new structure that is deemed fit for habitation as opposed to something for storage etc. Affecting this is not what you tell them it is for but what you design: partitions, for example, tend to demonstrate a livable space, not a storage space or shed etc.

You may choose to build with a permit / pass final inspections and then continue to finish to your own spec afterwards, but of course this comes with inherent risk that only you can weigh up. If you go this way there is still every reason to finish the build according to code as best as possible; this is particularly important for things like electrical - so no redneck wiring or some shit!

Building code and permits are there to maintain safety standards, reduce risk to you and neighbors, and ensures occupied structures will last the test of time, but I agree sometimes the rules feel unnecessarily restricting especially when you are trying to do everything by the book.

And yes the square footage restriction is usually a percentage of lot size; ie. the more space you have the bigger your additional structure can be.

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also, if a building inspector isn't a retiree, but a young buck, he couldn't hack it as a carpenter, and now has to fail as many other people as he can to help caress his ego.

been dealing with the motherfuckers for over 25 years. some of the oldest ones are great, and a joy to work with. these 19 year old mama's boys are lucky to leave with less than a claw hammer hanging out of the back of their skull (hard to ignore the inherent attitude). but however, it is their job, and being a dick is in the description.

glad you passed, i'd have failed you on a couple of discrepancies electrically, but it is sound and will work. great job!

HGK420 said:

one of my medical patients is a current licensed electrician and my dad used to be one 20 years ago and I'm pretty good at pulling wire soo between the 3 of us we got the electrical covered. no worries there.

that was my strategy i think, draw it up open floor plan and build it to that point. get the inspection. tip my hat, and get back to work. we are pretty rural and i have been pouring in and out of my newly purchased home with 2x4's and doors... lol the doors... I've installed 5 EXTERIOR weather sealed doors on grow rooms with 7 other interior doors for various closets and furnace rooms... etc.. and so far no ones said a word..

also had a septic guy tear up my system and clean it all out by hand. hand dug. hand sprayed lol. dudes crew was after it. he wasn't licensed and didn't pull permits so i saved like $6000 at a time when i absolutely had to and we got lucky that day to. like i said pretty rural and I'm cool with all my neighbors so i don't think that would be an issue... just worry about that random county employee out for a jog.

also, it wouldn't be outside of the realm of reality if i labeled it as a storage garage and just left it open floor plan and maybe a bathroom?


also, thanks for the suggestion on the provisions. I'm checkin to see if they are online now.

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state and county matter for questions like these. i've been building since the nineties, and i can say in most rural parts, you can do what ever the fuck you want to, just pray you don't have a fire (because then inspections will come up in the investigation).

you are always free to build a garage or workshop with added power for big tools with no walls. once inspected and passed, you can partition your heart out and be fine.

but depending on how rural you are, you may need no county man at all. for instance, where i live, the county building inspector is not licensed, knows nothing of construction/manufacturing processes, and is simply a deputized townie. just give him a beer, talk about deer or fish, and wave as he leaves with a signed doc in your hand.

i am a carpenter, electrician, and engineer.

cat of curiosity said:

also, if a building inspector isn't a retiree, but a young buck, he couldn't hack it as a carpenter, and now has to fail as many other people as he can to help caress his ego.

been dealing with the motherfuckers for over 25 years. some of the oldest ones are great, and a joy to work with. these 19 year old mama's boys are lucky to leave with less than a claw hammer hanging out of the back of their skull (hard to ignore the inherent attitude). but however, it is their job, and being a dick is in the description.

glad you passed, i'd have failed you on a couple of discrepancies electrically, but it is sound and will work. great job!

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Totally true. My inspector was a trade vet, he knew I was building and learning at the same time and was very helpful every time he came around. I was humble enough to follow up his changes and we had rep throughout the whole process. I have a legit addition to my property because of his involvement.

Now i'm dying to know the discrepancies you've spotted, just for kicks, i'm not fussed about it at this stage but you gotta tell me!

Some very different ways of building from how we build in the midwest.... Is conduit not required by code out there? I would have figured since you were looking at safety you would have used it. Straight romex through studs is a big no no out here as its a huge fire hazard due to sheathing heat up or lightning hits or power surge or pull.Came out nice just curious as a carpenter of how things are allowed in other areas.

FilthyFletch said:

Some very different ways of building from how we build in the midwest.... Is conduit not required by code out there? I would have figured since you were looking at safety you would have used it. Straight romex through studs is a big no no out here as its a huge fire hazard due to sheathing heat up or lightning hits or power surge or pull.Came out nice just curious as a carpenter of how things are allowed in other areas.

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for the load, residential, no conduit required. bore holes and wall chase work as air proofing (curious if per-lines were required), would vary for a storage building, but 12/2 is kinda overkill. i'd have done it too, rated 20a per, but 15a would have been easier/cheaper, and you could still have run 12/2 instead of 14/2.

@ruwtz your bore holes are not acceptable. you can use 1'' in a 2x6, or 1 1/2'' for anything larger, but you cannot use a lager bore diameter than 3/4'' in 2x4 studs, even if it isn't load bearing, and can run a maximum of two 12/2 through a single bore (12/3 and 14/3 would require their own separate bore). and if using anything smaller (ie 2x3) you must use steel sleeves in the holes (still, don't need solid or spiral/corrugated conduit)
if you were to ever mount anything on the wall, you are in danger of striking and shorting the wire. bore diameter is really only important on load bearing walls; if you remove a section of the uprights, you decrease the structural integrity of the building.

i'm stoned, if this doesn't make sense, just pm me, i'll reiterate tomorrow. not entirely coherent atm...

no big deal, looks great. i'm only nitpicking, and the other electrical stuff is just trade related. i saw something else, but i'm too stoned to remember atm, it's past my bedtime.

FilthyFletch said:

Some very different ways of building from how we build in the midwest.... Is conduit not required by code out there? I would have figured since you were looking at safety you would have used it. Straight romex through studs is a big no no out here as its a huge fire hazard due to sheathing heat up or lightning hits or power surge or pull.Came out nice just curious as a carpenter of how things are allowed in other areas.

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If you have sheathing heat then you have bigger problems on the circuit than whether Romex should be in conduit or not, wouldn't you say? Lightning is another matter but thats why we have EGC rods, right?

I remember looking this up and found that the 'Romex in conduit issue' is a whole can of worms amongst electricians. I think NEC says you should, most don't appear to do it (at least not here), and some will even say the risk of fire from heat buildup is worsened by conduit, but then again we're indicating other problems then surely.

AFAIK, all conductors including Romex should be in conduit for open walls or surface mounting, and Romex cannot be used at all for wet locations. Happy to be corrected by pros here though.

I'm no electrician so its not my fight. But I know my cables are overrated for their circuit amperage and are properly recessed and stapled in the wall cavity, nailing plates over notches etc.

cat of curiosity said:

for the load, residential, no conduit required. bore holes and wall chase work as air proofing (curious if per-lines were required), would vary for a storage building, but 12/2 is kinda overkill. i'd have done it too, rated 20a per, but 15a would have been easier/cheaper, and you could still have run 12/2 instead of 14/2.

@ruwtz your bore holes are not acceptable. you can use 1'' in a 2x6, or 1 1/2'' for anything larger, but you cannot use a lager bore diameter than 3/4'' in 2x4 studs, even if it isn't load bearing, and if using anything smaller (ie 2x3) you must use steel sleeves in the holes (still, don't need solid or spiral/corrugated conduit)
if you were to ever mount anything on the wall, you are in danger of striking and shorting the wire.

no big deal, looks great. i'm only nitpicking, and the other electrical stuff is just trade related. i saw something else, but i'm too stoned to remember atm, it's past my bedtime.

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Ah gotcha! I think I used a 1" arbor in the 2x6 rafters and just carried on in the walls, doing my best to drive it in the middle of the stud. Cheers to you for spotting.

ruwtz said:

Ah gotcha! I think I used a 1" arbor in the 2x6 rafters and just carried on in the walls, doing my best to drive it in the middle of the stud. Cheers to you for spotting.

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romex comes with vinyl conduit or in aluminum spiral conduit. the latter is commercial, and generally not found at lowes. you did your homework, your panel termination looks good, and after that, i'd expect your switches and receps are gtg.

i look forward to the adventure!

cat of curiosity said:

romex comes with vinyl conduit or in aluminum spiral conduit. the latter is commercial, and generally not found at lowes. you did your homework, your panel termination looks good, and after that, i'd expect your switches and receps are gtg.

i look forward to the adventure!

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Homework and some, but it still never stopped me from biting through a live 240v 10/2 cable with my crimpers one day. Fried the crimpers and blew me right off the ladder. That breaker wasn't supposed to be on, turns out it was. Total DIY/amateur/dickhead mistake and put the willies right up me. By rights I should have ended up 6ft under and in the local paper stupid guy column, but I was lucky. Lesson learned: check it, check it again, and CHECK SOME MORE.

That story is tough to admit here on the net around professionals but if me very nearly costing my own life through stupidity helps someone else then its worth it.

ruwtz said:

Homework and some, but it still never stopped me from biting through a live 240v 10/2 cable with my crimpers one day. Fried the crimpers and blew me right off the ladder. That breaker wasn't supposed to be on, turns out it was. Total DIY/amateur/dickhead mistake and put the willies right up me. By rights I should have been that stupid guy column in the local paper, but I was lucky. Lesson learned: check it, check it again, and CHECK SOME MORE.

That story is tough to admit here on the net around professionals but if me very nearly costing my own life through stupidity helps someone else then its worth it.

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careful,You have no room for error with electricity!!! A buddy of mine who was training for a power plant job in 03' taking his pgm-4 test completly melted the top half of a snap-on crimper and also, "flew off the ladder" with major sparks and all. The glowing hot crimper landed on the sole of his shoe and set it on fire! You might want to thank the ladder or gravity lol

ruwtz said:

Homework and some, but it still never stopped me from biting through a live 240v 10/2 cable with my crimpers one day. Fried the crimpers and blew me right off the ladder. That breaker wasn't supposed to be on, turns out it was. Total DIY/amateur/dickhead mistake and put the willies right up me. By rights I should have ended up 6ft under and in the local paper stupid guy column, but I was lucky. Lesson learned: check it, check it again, and CHECK SOME MORE.

That story is tough to admit here on the net around professionals but if me very nearly costing my own life through stupidity helps someone else then its worth it.

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yep, you got lucky, never work on live circuits. check, double check, and have a standby to prevent accidents.

i remove the main when working. it goes in a locked tool compartment on the truck. shit happens, even a neighborhood kid, curious, flipping switches in the off hours.

cat of curiosity said:

yep, you got lucky, never work on live circuits. check, double check, and have a standby to prevent accidents.

i remove the main when working. it goes in a locked tool compartment on the truck. shit happens, even a neighborhood kid, curious, flipping switches in the off hours.

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It's not paranoia. Fuckin sparky is out to get me and I'm not about to give it a chance.

I feel like i juwt did your insulation and wiring. Oh wait. Yea i just did the same thing, 14'×32' art studio.

I went with a prefabbed singlewide with crafted wood exterior, windows, and a red metal roof. Had to do the insulation, electrical, interor walls, etc, just not the skeleton and exterior.


Looks gooooooooooood!

Can wait to check out the grow.

ruwtz said:

Homework and some, but it still never stopped me from biting through a live 240v 10/2 cable with my crimpers one day. Fried the crimpers and blew me right off the ladder. That breaker wasn't supposed to be on, turns out it was. Total DIY/amateur/dickhead mistake and put the willies right up me. By rights I should have ended up 6ft under and in the local paper stupid guy column, but I was lucky. Lesson learned: check it, check it again, and CHECK SOME MORE.

That story is tough to admit here on the net around professionals but if me very nearly costing my own life through stupidity helps someone else then its worth it.

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this is why i still shell out the cash/meds for my electricians. i got electrocuted on a construction site once and ended up in the hospital with heart issues. like has been mentioned.. sparky gives no fucks... sparky gives no second chances.. sparky will fuck you up..

when i first moved to this new house i was pulling out a buncha old lighting and i woulda bet all my moneyz that the breaker was off.. well good thing crimper have insulated handles and i had big boots on cause it was fireworks in my hand with a POP. its sooooo ez to make a mistake.

this DIY furnace was supposed to be done pro style by a trusted HVAC guy but his best friend and supplier was recently killed in an electrical accident, apparently he was very experienced... electricity cares not if you make a mistake..

i really dig sketchup. its super intuitive and if i spend some time with it, i imagine it can be very detailed.

HGK420 said:

i really dig sketchup. its super intuitive and if i spend some time with it, i imagine it can be very detailed.

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Well done for getting into it. Be sure to make the most of grouping edges and faces as you go along, and if you get your head around working with layers the proper way then you are a better man than me. Essentially - and unlike other layer-based things like Photoshop - you build everything on a single layer but use the entity dialogue to determine specific layers for different components and groups, allowing you to switch on/off their visibility. Combine this with camera angles and styles to quickly cycle through different ways of viewing your creation. Layers are useful when building complex things like I did with my whole house, and absolutely essential if you then want to produce blueprints using the Layout software, which is free during the 30 day trial period only by the way.

Add textures like wood grain and concrete to your surfaces to bring everything to life.

Also free during the trial only is the cut/subtract set of tools which allow you to do things like subtracting one group from another to create a new object - I found this indispensable when assembling my wood frame and felt like actual building/sawing as I went. I miss these tools now they are gone/not free.

Oh and make the most of the massive library of components available during the free trial - the SU community folks have literally built everything imaginable to scale already! I geeked all the way out and found my exact model central air condenser, Stimpson hurricane ties for rafters, even a VW Jetta to park out front!

ya i havent grouped anything. i see how there can be lots of issues with that. I'm gonna redo it from the 2x4 up this time and mess with the layers. might even do the whole house for the heck of it. i can see how this would be a very powerful tool for convincing the old lady to get into some pretty big construction projects "Look how nice it will be hun!"

i didn't even see the cut/subtract stuff il look into it now. I've now done all the doorways and whatnot and it woulda been nice to have some sort of cut/subtract tool.

ruwtz said:

View attachment 3734994

Shingle courses on the roof. Honestly anyone can do this.

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Next time use dimensional it's even easier