12/12 From Seed Experiment - 21 Strains

Hot Diggity Sog · Apr 17, 2015

Sativied said:
No, we just used the same pvc piece to create that dam. My tube setup was more inspired by @Earl 's spaceshuttle, but I decided to flood instead. Someone asked later at riu what I used to create that dam and turn out to be an item Heath used in the same way.

Yeah that's what I was thinking too. However, it's also why I decided to consider flooding initially. The plants don't have to adapt going from DWC to flooded tubes while they didn't like the shallow layer pre-flooding. NFT can work create but in a cylinder/tube (opposed to something flat) the layer is not only shallow but also narrow. Increasing to flow will raise it but only to an extend, it will also flow through faster. Perhaps worst case scenario is that you may have to top water for a few days.

The water is only about 1/2" deep right now. I see your point. Stronger pump might not really raise the level much but will certainly increase the rate which is not good. Top watering is OK until they reach the water. Do you think 1/2" will cut it? Did you find that once roots started to build mass that they served as a dam themselves and increased the water depth and reduced the flow rate?

Sativied · Apr 17, 2015

Hot Diggity Sog said:
Did you find that once roots started to build mass that they served as a dam themselves and increased the water depth and reduced the flow rate?

It does raise the level, which in my case means it overflows a little faster and doesn't add to it in an amount that I account for it by leaving space below the bottom of the cup. Maybe I should though. My root mass seems about the same size as my flow, 1.5-2" at highest point, with and without sprayers.

Once it's that far it's less of an issue either way. I'd be more worried about the amount of space the roots have to overcome initially. I do think half an inch can be enough but hard to say in a tube.

Hot Diggity Sog · Apr 17, 2015

Sativied said:
It does raise the level, which in my case means it overflows a little faster and doesn't add to it in an amount that I account for it by leaving space below the bottom of the cup. Maybe I should though. My root mass seems about the same size as my flow, 1.5-2" at highest point, with and without sprayers.

Once it's that far it's less of an issue either way. I'd be more worried about the amount of space the roots have to overcome initially. I do think half an inch can be enough but hard to say in a tube.

Gotcha. I have nice plastic trays that will allow roots to pass from the rockwool cubes in the baskets so if I end up having to keep them in a little domed DWC setup until the tap root is several inches long I can do that. And if I also need to top water for a while I'm ok with that too. I'll be sure to log all of the data relating to this.

If you're up for it, I'd love to get your feedback on my 2nd design. Mind if I post a few pictures that will require your imagination and tell me what you think?

Sativied · Apr 17, 2015

Hot Diggity Sog said:
If you're up for it, I'd love to get your feedback on my 2nd design. Mind if I post a few pictures that will require your imagination and tell me what you think?

I consider it a privilege to think along and provide feedback.

Hot Diggity Sog · Apr 17, 2015

Kind of you to say. I'm grateful.

This is square PVC approximately 2.75" O.D.

Imagine a bunch of these hung vertically around the octagon. The tubes I bought came in 10 foot lengths so I cut them to approximately 40 inches in length. Vertically spaced at 6 inches, I can get 6 plants per tube. Horizontal spacing is TBD but I was figuring 4 or 5 inches apart...but that's really irrelevant at this point.

The 45 degree elbows would be permanently fastened. a 2 inch net pot fits nicely into this but so does a 1.5" rockwool cube all by itself.

I was originally thinking a few tubes with perlite. A few tubes with perlite/coco mix but then it occurred to me to try hydroton. I've never even seen hydroton before but I went ahead and ordered a gigantic bag of it. Stuff it pretty cool. THis approach I could do a drain to waste but with the hydroton (and maybe even the perlite if washed well enough...not sure) I'd like to try recirculating. This idea is appealing because each tube can be easily moved around. I'll showcase how I intend to hang them later next week.

Conceptually, what do you think?

Hot Diggity Sog · Apr 17, 2015

I did not specify...I would be watering from the top of the tube and not at each plant site which is another appealing factor.

Sativied · Apr 17, 2015

I think perlite could be tricky because it's so light and expands a lot. Maybe not a problem once it becomes a single root+medium mass, but normally in a wider bucket the medium can both raise and settle easily.

I use hydroton in my netcups but also at the bottom of hempy bottles/buckets so they don't clog the drain hole and there's some more space for the res part at the bottom, drains/flushes easily. Main down side I see is that although it's possible to reuse hydroton, it does take more work to clean the setup for next round and more work to remove it from the root mass. One of the main things I like about my hydro setup is that I can harvest the plants and have the system cleaned and ready for next run within an hour.

I think the vertical post with 45degrees elbow combination could work very nicely. Recirculation with a medium, even hydroton, can be tricky, but also provide a buffer in case of a technical failure. A sprayer above each plant site (and no medium) could work too.

That would obviously add more work and probably maintenance, but check out the video below. I was looking for another video but this is even better, scroll to roughly 8:40 and watch a minute or so for this rather clever but simple solution that may still apply when filling the tower with hydroton.

Actually, google or search youtube for hydroponic tower for more inspiration.

Hot Diggity Sog · Apr 17, 2015

Sativied said:
I think perlite could be tricky because it's so light and expands a lot. Maybe not a problem once it becomes a single root+medium mass, but normally in a wider bucket the medium can both raise and settle easily.

I use hydroton in my netcups but also at the bottom of hempy bottles/buckets so they don't clog the drain hole and there's some more space for the res part at the bottom, drains/flushes easily. Main down side I see is that although it's possible to reuse hydroton, it does take more work to clean the setup for next round and more work to remove it from the root mass. One of the main things I like about my hydro setup is that I can harvest the plants and have the system cleaned and ready for next run within an hour.

I think the vertical post with 45degrees elbow combination could work very nicely. Recirculation with a medium, even hydroton, can be tricky, but also provide a buffer in case of a technical failure. A sprayer above each plant site (and no medium) could work too.

That would obviously add more work and probably maintenance, but check out the video below. I was looking for another video but this is even better, scroll to roughly 8:40 and watch a minute or so for this rather clever but simple solution that may still apply when filling the tower with hydroton.

Actually, google or search youtube for hydroponic tower for more inspiration.

No medium at all would be awesome.

Hot Diggity Sog · Apr 17, 2015

1st tube is done. After turning the clutch way down on my drill I was able to drill these holes a lot easier and cleaner. Not having a lot of surface area I was not sure how well the elbows would solvent weld but they seem quite durable. I think I'm going to do my 1st test with hydroton. I will do top watering on an automated schedule. Will rely on your input and trial and error but I'm probably going to start with something like 15 seconds on, 30 minutes off. Remember my 1st prototype in automation? Well, that's going to come into play. Since I can now turn electrical devices on and off with code, doing odd watering intervals becomes trivially easy.

These tubes are going to be really fast to make. I drilled the holes and cemented the elbows in about 3 minutes.
I've been struggling trying to find end caps but I finally found something that should work. I don't want the end caps to be cemented thinking it will be much easier to clean between runs with both ends exposed. The idea of not having medium to dispose of is very appealing. I still have coco and perlite remnants in the woods from last time.

Put the net pots in just for the picture but it's doubtful I'll use them. 1.5" rockwool cubes slide in wonderfully.

Hot Diggity Sog · Apr 17, 2015

Popped the 1st small batch of seeds for what will become Chapter #3. I've decided I'm not going to shell out any money for seeds and I'm going to use what I've got. Between different strains I've bought but never used and all of the 1 off freebies I've got over 50 Fem seeds plus some other interesting regular seeds such as some bodhi stuff.

First up:
(9) AK48
(9) Pineapple Express

All 18 are fem seeds.
Put them in water 24 hours ago and getting some action already. Rockwool bound in the morning.

Sativied · Apr 17, 2015

Hot Diggity Sog said:
Put the net pots in just for the picture but it's doubtful I'll use them. 1.5" rockwool cubes slide in wonderfully.

Looks like the cubes is the way to go so you can slide them in far enough, and then you also get some support for leaning.

Sure like the look. Honestly I think that if my goal wasn't plant portability but max yield instead I'd join in one some vertical hydro tower fun. Columns do seem more manageable than rows.

Hot Diggity Sog said:
The idea of not having medium to dispose of is very appealing.

Seems like a feasible goal. Some ways of providing the water will be better than others but I'm having a hard time trying to think of reasons why it wouldn't work (like in that youtube vid). You could perhaps use a cheap shower head (dollar store?) in the top to spread it evenly. Instead of a sprayer per plant site you'd have a larger on in the top. Either way, I think it has great potential.

Hot Diggity Sog said:
15 seconds on, 30 minutes off.

I think that off period is a bit long initially. It'll be humid in the column but I'd start with something like 10 minute off till there are some more roots. I only say that because I let some seedings dry out while refreshing a dwc box, I have no experience running on timers. The thought to use an arduino for a timer has crossed my mind to too, those second-based timers with irregular intervals tend to be pricey.

Hot Diggity Sog · Apr 17, 2015

Sativied said:
Looks like the cubes is the way to go so you can slide them in far enough, and then you also get some support for leaning.

Sure like the look. Honestly I think that if my goal wasn't plant portability but max yield instead I'd join in one some vertical hydro tower fun. Columns do seem more manageable than rows.

Seems like a feasible goal. Some ways of providing the water will be better than others but I'm having a hard time trying to think of reasons why it wouldn't work (like in that youtube vid). You could perhaps use a cheap shower head (dollar store?) in the top to spread it evenly. Instead of a sprayer per plant site you'd have a larger on in the top. Either way, I think it has great potential.

I think that off period is a bit long initially. It'll be humid in the column but I'd start with something like 10 minute off till there are some more roots. I only say that because I let some seedings dry out while refreshing a dwc box, I have no experience running on timers. The thought to use an arduino for a timer has crossed my mind to too, those second-based timers with irregular intervals tend to be pricey.

The columns are exciting me more than the "Heath" at the moment. The fact I'll be able to take one down and fiddle with it. Change it's position...change it's height is very appealing.

You could perhaps use a cheap shower head (dollar store?) in the top to spread it evenly. Instead of a sprayer per plant site you'd have a larger on in the top.
I have a ton of drip equipment. 1/4", 1/2"...all the fixens. I was kind of thinking that a 1/2" tube over each PVC pipe might be fine. The flow might be a little agressive but the hydroton should offer a lot of flow resistance so the roots are not bombarded. That said, do you still suggest some kind of shower/sprayer instead of just a stream of water?

It'll be humid in the column but I'd start with something like 10 minute off till there are some more roots.
Cool, OK. I was hoping for some specific advice on that.

Sativied · Apr 17, 2015

Hot Diggity Sog said:
The fact I'll be able to take one down and fiddle with it. Change it's position...change it's height is very appealing.

Yes and possibly grow plants of different age on different sides of the octagon, which would be harder when they are all in the same row and root mass.

Hot Diggity Sog said:
That said, do you still suggest some kind of shower/sprayer instead of just a stream of water?

If you fill it with hydroton I don't think it needs help spreading and then a longer off period would probably be fine too, although then I would maybe turn it on 1 minute instead of 10seconds to somewhat flush it through. Or check carefully how much that takes to reach the bottom properly (instead of being soaked up by hydroton half way). I don't think bombarding the roots with water or the flow being too aggressive will be a problem, they can take quite a lot especially if they grow up in it.

Hot Diggity Sog · Apr 17, 2015

Sativied said:
Yes and possibly grow plants of different age on different sides of the octagon, which would be harder when they are all in the same row and root mass.

If you fill it with hydroton I don't think it needs help spreading and then a longer off period would probably be fine too, although then I would maybe turn it on 1 minute instead of 10seconds to somewhat flush it through. Or check carefully how much that takes to reach the bottom properly (instead of being soaked up by hydroton half way). I don't think bombarding the roots with water or the flow being too aggressive will be a problem, they can take quite a lot especially if they grow up in it.

For sure. Maybe a 12/13/14 day rotation for perpetual would be doable. Hot dog, I'm getting excited now! Thanks Sat!

Hot Diggity Sog · Apr 17, 2015

I was able to talk to a project manager at a local steel fabrication company and inquired about having them make me a circle out of 1 inch thick solid aluminum that was 60 inches in diameter. Long story short something like this will cost about $300. If this design ends up being viable, I've gotta come up with 2 proto's. One that is self-contained with odor control and one that is not - The room it would go in would be controlled.

Hot Diggity Sog · Apr 18, 2015

Octagon Update

I have 5 vegetables in the PVC tubes right now. Each of them has a smallish tap root that reached the water and the rest of the roots are confined in the net pot. They've been in here for 48 hours now and that one tap root is doing a great job keeping the main root mass moist. This is promising.

This was an idea I started a few days ago but have since abandoned. Each one of these pots is one of the 3" x 10" pots I used in the 1st experiment and they are anchored to the studs. Draining would occur outside of the octagon. This was appealing because each of these 3" pots would serve as the holder. Other 3" pots with the plants would simply slide into these. This would offer maximum portability but would be a lot of work to water them. It's unlikely I will continue with this one.

And now the ones I'm really excited about. The square PVC.

The 18 seeds that I'm germinating will be going into these. The lower 2x4 you see with the 3/4" PVC is to stabilize the tubes and help prevent them from twisting. It does a good job but I suspect I will need to come up with something a little better.

Sativied · Apr 18, 2015

The multiple towers look great, seems the hydroton fills up the elbows nicely too.

Hot Diggity Sog said:
It does a good job but I suspect I will need to come up with something a little better.

That small pvc clamp is available in thicker versions as well, perhaps one of those on each side of each tower is enough... or a small strip of velcro tape, or magnetic adhesive tape.

Hot Diggity Sog · Apr 18, 2015

Sativied said:
The multiple towers look great, seems the hydroton fills up the elbows nicely too.

That small pvc clamp is available in thicker versions as well, perhaps one of those on each side of each tower is enough... or a small strip of velcro tape, or magnetic adhesive tape.

Ahh, great idea. Velcro sounds like the ticket

Hot Diggity Sog · Apr 18, 2015

Chapter 2 Update
Day 78
Flowering Day 35

Girls are trucking right along. They are kind of on auto-pilot at this point. I poke my head in and take a peek but otherwise I'm just kind of letting them do their thing.
RH was really high today...high 60's. It has been slowly rising so I figured it was time to bring in the 2nd dumidifier. It's working like a champ. This one is in the grow room and RH dropped from high 60's down to low 40's so I'm pleased. Temps are no longer a concern as it has warmed considerably outside. I think these girls are going to end up doing just fine. Might not be harvesting til day 75 or day 80 of flowering but whatever. The only other thing worth noting is that I measured run-off with todays watering and it was HIGH. Like 2.1 EC. Been watering at 1.3/1.4 so I guess I'll flush tomorrow or the next day with maybe 20% strength of what I've been feeding. Typical watering for them has been 12 gallons of water with 4 gallons of run-off every 3 days with feed every watering.

Other than Sat, no one seems to be interested in Octagon stuff so I'll try and get some good bud porn coming

Hot Diggity Sog · Apr 18, 2015

8 out of the 9 AK48 seeds germinated and are now in rockwool.
Not a single one of the pineapple express' have popped. I put them into rockwool anyway as well.

Just put 8 Bodhi Blue Tara's into water as well as 6 C99-BX1's from Mosca. These are regular not feminized.

12/12 From Seed Experiment - 21 Strains

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