Which is better hid or led?

[Siddhartha2]

Haha you know our led grown herb is better because our shit gets you soo high that we switch the topics from led vs hid too BMW being the shit haha
i too miss my e36

Fuck this thread its pointless to argue with these people. In due time they too will switch too LEDs and in due time they will be smoking some of the dankest led grown herb and join our conversation on BMWs

BMW are why I work so hard to perfect my growing. My bike shop skills will never allow me to drive A 335ix, my growing will.
Sidd

 

[Chirulazo]

Regardless of space, room, or type of plant...HiD is the best...go look at any other indoor gardening forum...for tomatoes, or cucumbers, or flowers...everyone says the same...there are people that use t5s and CFLs and LED, but HiD is the best and the brightest..do they get hot?--yes they do...so to have the best lights you have to setup a way to manage the heat in the area in which you are working, and if you aren't able, or don't have the money then you can't use HiD, but is some other light as good?--No, but they will work...just not as well.

Hey man, i think you should take a look in what the new tech is doing. LED's have outperformed HID from quite some time ago. The thing is, most LED's are only chinese cheap panels. Those won't do the job. But if you go for a GOOD panel, using GOOD led's, no chance for HID to beat it. BUT! as many said, for larger scale grows, i belive HID is still the best option, since it has more penetrating power, and the cost makes it more accesible. For a large scale growth, if you decide to go for LED's, you would have to use High quality led's, such as CREE, Osram, Lumileds, Seoul, etc. To cover the whole space of a large scale growth with high quality leds, it would take an incredible amount of money.... so, for large scale, HID still is a better option. For more little home set ups, no way HID could beat a high quality led's set up. If you are talking chinese led panels, then YES! HID is still better, but when talking about good leds, HID was beaten long time ago. Though i must say, last generation chinese panels, could indeed catch up with an HID performance, but will not outperform it in my opinion.

To prove what i'm saying, i leave a pic, of a plant i have on her day 55 of flowering phase. This was done with 56W of high quality leds (60 - 65W total power consumption), CREE XP-E to be precise. There is no way in the world, a 70W HPS could deliver this performance.

AND! i must say, i have used, 400W HPS, Chinese LED "last generation" panel Apollo 6 from cidly, China, and currently using High quality leds CREE XP-E.... so, my opinion, comes from first hand experience.

Cheers.

 

[Chirulazo]

do the math ere. 1,300 light to get 356 grams. Not a pound.
Now put a 1000 hps in that same tent. I guaranteed better results for what 1000 cheaper. That link did not prove anything either

Hey, if you look carefully.. that growth was not intended to bring out max yield, it was to see Dutch Passion's new strain "Think Different" performace, one plant alone... so, for the test, there where 3 plants germinated. Only the biggest one was left for the whole process. If he had left the 3, have no doubt, results would have been better. As i said, that experiment, was only to see the strain performance. 356 grams from only one plant in 75 days using 600W of power is just incredible. Nevertheless, a 1000W HID would also deliver that results i'm guessing, only with a higher light bill at the end of the month, which would also increase the cost of the growth. AND! it would be good to mention, he isn't using the best led's available either.

And there is one fact everyone is forgetting here. Everyone talking about how pricey LED's are, and everyone is forgetting the longer lifespan. You save a lot of money every year you don't have to change bulbs. Also, the extra yield you can get with LED's, makes the panel pay for itself sooner than you could imagine.

If you can afford it, have no doubt, it will pay itself much sooner than you expect.

When you go LED, you never go back, new things always need some time and experimentation to replace old technologies... but many people around the world, are going beyond the bad reputation first generation cheap chinese led panels gave to this technology.... don't stay there, no one is going to argue that chinese led's can´t outperform HID yet... in that case, i think we are all certain that HID still is a better option... but when you talk about high quality leds, to keep saying HID outperforms those, it's just being to conservative and not wanting to accept reality, that HID was already outperformed in efficiency by LED technology. At a higher price, but with a lot of benefits other than just the higher yield, you have the longer lifespan, the easy to mount easy to use, the low heat, the better distribution of the light, etc. many things to consider. BUT! HID lights, still are excelent lights, it is just that present developments, had brought up a more efficient technology already available. To switch to this more efficient tech, is just a matter of will and money... and a lot of reasearch so you don't end up with a cheap crappy panel and then you go screaming out there how LED is a crappy technology that hasn't caught up with HID standard technologies. That happens to almost everyone who falls for false marketing promises. But if you do your research and pick a high quality panel, have no doubt results, WILL be better than with an HID light

Cheers to everyone.

 

[wyteberrywidow]

Hey, if you look carefully.. that growth was not intended to bring out max yield, it was to see Dutch Passion's new strain "Think Different" performace, one plant alone... so, for the test, there where 3 plants germinated. Only the biggest one was left for the whole process. If he had left the 3, have no doubt, results would have been better. As i said, that experiment, was only to see the strain performance. 356 grams from only one plant in 75 days using 600W of power is just incredible. Nevertheless, a 1000W HID would also deliver that results i'm guessing, only with a higher light bill at the end of the month, which would also increase the cost of the growth. AND! it would be good to mention, he isn't using the best led's available either.

And there is one fact everyone is forgetting here. Everyone talking about how pricey LED's are, and everyone is forgetting the longer lifespan. You save a lot of money every year you don't have to change bulbs. Also, the extra yield you can get with LED's, makes the panel pay for itself sooner than you could imagine.

If you can afford it, have no doubt, it will pay itself much sooner than you expect.

When you go LED, you never go back, new things always need some time and experimentation to replace old technologies... but many people around the world, are going beyond the bad reputation first generation cheap chinese led panels gave to this technology.... don't stay there, no one is going to argue that chinese led's can´t outperform HID yet... in that case, i think we are all certain that HID still is a better option... but when you talk about high quality leds, to keep saying HID outperforms those, it's just being to conservative and not wanting to accept reality, that HID was already outperformed in efficiency by LED technology. At a higher price, but with a lot of benefits other than just the higher yield, you have the longer lifespan, the easy to mount easy to use, the low heat, the better distribution of the light, etc. many things to consider. BUT! HID lights, still are excelent lights, it is just that present developments, had brought up a more efficient technology already available. To switch to this more efficient tech, is just a matter of will and money... and a lot of reasearch so you don't end up with a cheap crappy panel and then you go screaming out there how LED is a crappy technology that hasn't caught up with HID standard technologies. That happens to almost everyone who falls for false marketing promises. But if you do your research and pick a high quality panel, have no doubt results, WILL be better than with an HID light

Cheers to everyone.

You can easily get a pound from a 600 watt light and one plant so using 600 watts of led would be the same on the power bill. So I really don't see your point.. It will be the same to operate as 600 watts would be 600 watts and I ve done see Hobbes get 1.5 gram per watt with a 600 watt I have yet to see that done with a 600 watt led.

 

[Red1966]

Hey, if you look carefully.. that growth was not intended to bring out max yield, it was to see Dutch Passion's new strain "Think Different" performace, one plant alone... so, for the test, there where 3 plants germinated. Only the biggest one was left for the whole process. If he had left the 3, have no doubt, results would have been better. As i said, that experiment, was only to see the strain performance. 356 grams from only one plant in 75 days using 600W of power is just incredible. Nevertheless, a 1000W HID would also deliver that results i'm guessing, only with a higher light bill at the end of the month, which would also increase the cost of the growth. AND! it would be good to mention, he isn't using the best led's available either. And there is one fact everyone is forgetting here. Everyone talking about how pricey LED's are, and everyone is forgetting the longer lifespan. You save a lot of money every year you don't have to change bulbs. Also, the extra yield you can get with LED's, makes the panel pay for itself sooner than you could imagine. If you can afford it, have no doubt, it will pay itself much sooner than you expect. When you go LED, you never go back, new things always need some time and experimentation to replace old technologies... but many people around the world, are going beyond the bad reputation first generation cheap chinese led panels gave to this technology.... don't stay there, no one is going to argue that chinese led's can´t outperform HID yet... in that case, i think we are all certain that HID still is a better option... but when you talk about high quality leds, to keep saying HID outperforms those, it's just being to conservative and not wanting to accept reality, that HID was already outperformed in efficiency by LED technology. At a higher price, but with a lot of benefits other than just the higher yield, you have the longer lifespan, the easy to mount easy to use, the low heat, the better distribution of the light, etc. many things to consider. BUT! HID lights, still are excelent lights, it is just that present developments, had brought up a more efficient technology already available. To switch to this more efficient tech, is just a matter of will and money... and a lot of reasearch so you don't end up with a cheap crappy panel and then you go screaming out there how LED is a crappy technology that hasn't caught up with HID standard technologies. That happens to almost everyone who falls for false marketing promises. But if you do your research and pick a high quality panel, have no doubt results, WILL be better than with an HID light Cheers to everyone.

I know off three people who bought high dollar, high quality LEDs who DID go back to HID. The loss of production was unacceptable to them. 600w of LED produce just as much heat as 600w of HID. At least the heat of HIDs can be vented with out loosing any co2 injection. Most, if not all, of your post is just opinion. Your statement "but with a lot of benefits other than just the higher yield" is just false. I haven't seen ANY LED grow that had a higher yield.

 

[Chirulazo]

I know off three people who bought high dollar, high quality LEDs who DID go back to HID. The loss of production was unacceptable to them. 600w of LED produce just as much heat as 600w of HID. At least the heat of HIDs can be vented with out loosing any co2 injection. Most, if not all, of your post is just opinion. Your statement "but with a lot of benefits other than just the higher yield" is just false. I haven't seen ANY LED grow that had a higher yield.

Then you have too look closer and deeper into what new tech is bringing up!

Look at this link www.ledgrow.eu

He took 97 grams out of only 56 Watt of led power consumption. 60 - 65 Watt total power consumption. Tell me, how could you get a 70W HPS to deliver almost 100 grams of dry weed... please, let me know, cause it would be the cheapest way to get a lot of herb.

Look at this, This is my plant, grown under under that same panel, 56W led consumption, 60 - 65w total power consumption.
I harvested it today. 300 grams wet weight. I'm thinking between 60 and 80 grams dry weed. Tell me again. How could you achieve this using a 70W HPS. I am really curious to know. Since i haven't seen anybody bring even 50 grams out of a 70W HPS... in fact... 35 grams tops! 40... no more than that. But maybe, there are some techniques i don't know of, that can make a 70W HPS give a 1,5 g/W yield.

Oh, and let me say, i'm an average user, my set up has many things yetto be improved, so this results, show only a starting point... this is just preliminary testing. I know they can bring even more than this.... specially having a hard cold winter with really low temps. Only that factor, tells me, theres more room to keep increasing results.

 

[Chirulazo]

You can easily get a pound from a 600 watt light and one plant so using 600 watts of led would be the same on the power bill. So I really don't see your point.. It will be the same to operate as 600 watts would be 600 watts and I ve done see Hobbes get 1.5 gram per watt with a 600 watt I have yet to see that done with a 600 watt led.

My point is that he isn't using the best led's available, yet he managed to pull a great plant. And he could even had brought up a better yield if that was the goal, which wasn't in this case. And, also, this panel is not the best you could find, this results comes from a mid end panel using lower efficiency leds, not the best. Never mind by the way, won't start arguing abaout this stuff, it is a waste of time... i'm showing my results, and if you dig into it., you can see many average and even begginer growers pulling 1g/W and more, using the right led combination. That 1,5 g/W with HPS you tell me, that's for master pro growers. Everybody knows, the average yield when using HID is between 0,5 and 0,8 G/W.... more than that, is left to experienced growers or very lucky ones.

And if you wanna see a 1,5 g/W yield with leds, chexk this link also www.ledgrow.eu

He has a few over the 1,3 g/W... using low power consumption. We all know also, 600W HPS bulb, is the most efficient... it is easier to get a high rate of G/W with that bulb or a 1000W HPS... but when talking 250W or less, efficiency drops, and it makes it really difficult even to touch the 1G/W..... so... same question for you... how could you manage to make a hipothetical 56W HPS bulb to deliver almost 100 grams of weed, as it is shown in the link i post here?

 

[Red1966]

Then you have too look closer and deeper into what new tech is bringing up! Look at this link www.ledgrow.eu He took 97 grams out of only 56 Watt of led power consumption. 60 - 65 Watt total power consumption. Tell me, how could you get a 70W HPS to deliver almost 100 grams of dry weed... please, let me know, cause it would be the cheapest way to get a lot of herb. Look at this, This is my plant, grown under under that same panel, 56W led consumption, 60 - 65w total power consumption. I harvested it today. 300 grams wet weight. I'm thinking between 60 and 80 grams dry weed. Tell me again. How could you achieve this using a 70W HPS. I am really curious to know. Since i haven't seen anybody bring even 50 grams out of a 70W HPS... in fact... 35 grams tops! 40... no more than that. But maybe, there are some techniques i don't know of, that can make a 70W HPS give a 1,5 g/W yield. Oh, and let me say, i'm an average user, my set up has many things yetto be improved, so this results, show only a starting point... this is just preliminary testing. I know they can bring even more than this.... specially having a hard cold winter with really low temps. Only that factor, tells me, theres more room to keep increasing results.

Do they even make a 70w HPS? So he says, but he's selling the lights. Why should we believe him any more than all the other obviously exaggerated claims. Post your results when you actually have them, not what you're "thinking". How long did you grow the plant?

 

[aldo681]

So u are telling me that you yield more off a 432 watt t5 then a 1000 watt hps man something is territ wrong with that.

How is my opinion wrong?
No I have not used LEDs after calling 3 different led companies and hearing the same thing" if you want to replace your 2x600 in a 8x8 area you are going to need to spend thousands of dollars to even compare" now that sounds like the people who are selling the LEDs don't think that's smart.. The 3 companies are blackstar,htg supply and hydro huts pro grow series. All 3 companies said the same thing as if I called 3 different numbers to speak tithe same person.

So if I'm wrong can you show me where a led light produced a pound and a half? Can you show me a sea of green grow with led?

IMO... All LEDs suck! Now that's just been nice. I am still waiting for someone from hydroponics hut to return my emails. (Ben, you dodgy bastard!)
i reckon the people who claim that LEDs are better than HID are probably the ones working for these dodgy led companies. If you want a decent harvest stick with HIDs. The technology is ancient but still produces quality dank buds. Most hydro stores here in Australia said to me to stay away from LEDs. But I had to see for myself... Biggest mistake ever!!!

 

[Endur0xX]

check out my journal in my signature, look at my last update, kind of hard to compare, but I know for sure, it's going to be the biggest yield for this room to this day (4x5), I used to have 2x400watt (MH-HPS) + LEDs and it didnt look no where near what it looks like now. (My previous journal with HIDs-LEDs https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/474935-my-1st-organic-grow-pics-6.html and I veg for 55days as suppose to 12/12 from seed now...) I am more experienced now and I am using the space much more efficiently but I had about 1100 Watts in the room last winter and now I am running around 800Watts.

Good luck

 

[Chirulazo]

IMO... All LEDs suck! Now that's just been nice. I am still waiting for someone from hydroponics hut to return my emails. (Ben, you dodgy bastard!)
i reckon the people who claim that LEDs are better than HID are probably the ones working for these dodgy led companies. If you want a decent harvest stick with HIDs. The technology is ancient but still produces quality dank buds. Most hydro stores here in Australia said to me to stay away from LEDs. But I had to see for myself... Biggest mistake ever!!!

Hey man, yopu CAN´T judge led technology based on crappy panels. All of those, are cheap chinese panels. Almost all have Epistar or Bridgelux leds... those won't do the magic. To see real improvment, you HAVE to go for high quality leds, such as CREE, Osram, Lumileds, Seoul, etc. The only panels that are using these high quality leds, are: DIY Hans panels using CREE XP-E(the link i posted) Plantphotonic panels using CREE XP-E and Lumileds, EVO leds from spain, using in the past CREE XP-E now switching to Osram SSL80, Apache panels, using Osram 3W Leds (they dony specify model), Procyon, uding CREE XP-E.... and there maybe a few more out there.... but those are the very few. Almost ALL panels, re made with cheap lower efficiency leds... even the most expensive ones... those are only scams, and that's why, people like you and many others, consider this tech to be a crap! because it is the few, that have dig into led tech enough to know that the key to success in led, its not in the panel brand, it's in the leds, the diodes brand and model, where you'll see the difference. I have a friend, who made his own DIY panel, using lumileds, with 60W he pulled a 1,2 g/w yield. That was seen with my own eyes.
Why is almost noone using high quality leds? because those are 3 times the price, and most of the led companies, are only seeking profit, not performance. So they just go for the cheapest and pull heavy marketing, and many fall for it, and then they get frustrated and come here and say the tech is crap. That is the way LEDs have wom their bad reputation.

Do they even make a 70w HPS? So he says, but he's selling the lights. Why should we believe him any more than all the other obviously exaggerated claims. Post your results when you actually have them, not what you're "thinking". How long did you grow the plant?

o yes, they do 70W HPS... and you could doubt his results... you can also doubt mine... but i'm seeing my buds getting dry in front of me. I said i was an average user,not a complete novice one. I've had plants before. I know more or less how it looks 50 grams when they are wet. And i'm telling you, there's clearly more than 50 grams here, i can be sure of that!. Besides.. that "fluffy" buds thing... in the past... these buds are as dense as a rock.

you can take my word, or you can doubt it, it is your choice... reality, is that i really pulled this out of this plant using a 56W led panel.

And how long did it take for me to have this plant? well.. i have a veg room, so i just picked 7 clones, put them in a 25Lt container and in 56 - 57 days of flowering, i'm harvesting this. If you wish, so you can convince yourself i'm not bullshiting here, i can show you pics of the buds, so you can see results that can maybe make you belive in this technology. You say you have never seen any good caming out of leds...maybe it would be nice if for one time, you see something worth it.

 

[hyroot]

These guys already have their closed minds made up. Why try and prove anything. If they want to spend more on electric bills, replacement bulbs and ballsts, deal with high heat and lower quality buds. Thats their perogative and their loss. This thread should be done. Its a joke. If you show them proof, they will just make some excuse saying its not real. Like hans. He showed pics of every led project. Red said it was fake... So.does not matter what you say. These guys are haters and argue for the sake of arguing.


Btw I used to have an 89 bmw 325i. Great car for that time of my life.


Chi chi. Bridgelux, epiled, epistar are top quality too. Osram.and cree are chinese too.

 

[Chirulazo]

the neverending debate HID vs LED.... i think, that in the past, HID had their real arguments, and really, LEDs at that point, hadn't reach the development yet to stand as a serious competitor.... nevertheless, some would still sell them as 4 times the performance of an HID. In that case, LED's had nowhere to win, and of course, the industry is suffering for this aproach they gave to the technology, promising things that weren't true.

Nowdays, things have changed. Led tech has caught up, and is still rising every day. HID, has already met it's full potential.. very little i guess we could see from these lights getting better. LED's, have already outperformed HID, despite all the people who just won't accept it, that is reality. LED's continue to improve their performance every year, and soon they will be at more accesible prices, and also, there is plenty room left for this tech to keep improving it's results. For me, days of HID lighting, is in the past. Maybe they could still do it for llarger scale grows... but, little personal consumption home set ups, will see their results uplifted by a big margin if using the right led combination. That´s like only 1% of what the market is offering, the other 99%, won't do the magic. It's up to that one who wants to change to LED, to do the research and meet that 1% good panels ofered. If he goes for the other 99% mid to low eficiency panels offered, he will probably get frsutrated and then pass on through the bad experience, and then people won't even take the time to dig more into LEDs, just will continue repeating, LEDs are crap.

I must say, i am extemely happy with what my 56W panel is delivering and i know for sure, this result, could never have been achieved using same wattage of HID.

 

[Chirulazo]

I know off three people who bought high dollar, high quality LEDs who DID go back to HID. The loss of production was unacceptable to them. 600w of LED produce just as much heat as 600w of HID. At least the heat of HIDs can be vented with out loosing any co2 injection. Most, if not all, of your post is just opinion. Your statement "but with a lot of benefits other than just the higher yield" is just false. I haven't seen ANY LED grow that had a higher yield.

And please... tellme, which brand or waht panels did your 3 friends got and then turned back to HID?... cause you tell me they bought high quality expensive leds.... but, there are many, in fact, almost everyone, selling cheap chinese panels saying they are the shit of the shit... so, if you tell me they went for any of this super developed panels that are not more than cheap chinese panels being rebranded, then your argument is just with lack of information.


If you tell me they bought panels using CREE, Lumileds, Osram or some of those REAL high quality leds and yet turned back... then i would think, something is really going on there.... but if you tell me "high quality" based only on markenting blabla and expensive prices.. that is nothing to me... those are all chinese components, lower efficiency, lower everything. Not the high quality i was talking about.

 

[wyteberrywidow]

These guys already have their closed minds made up. Why try and prove anything. If they want to spend more on electric bills, replacement bulbs and ballsts, deal with high heat and lower quality buds. Thats their perogative and their loss. This thread should be done. Its a joke. If you show them proof, they will just make some excuse saying its not real. Like hans. He showed pics of every led project. Red said it was fake... So.does not matter what you say. These guys are haters and argue for the sake of arguing.


Btw I used to have an 89 bmw 325i. Great car for that time of my life.


Chi chi. Bridgelux, epiled, epistar are top quality too. Osram.and cree are chinese too.

That is your opinion and u r entitled to it

 

[hyroot]

Its not opinion. Its an obsevation.

 

[Chirulazo]

That is your opinion and u r entitled to it

I second what hyroot told you... it's not an opinion, its an observation.... you are not talking opinions when you have facts over the table. And the FACT is, LEDs have already outperformed HID, either you wanna belive it or not, that is reality. Most if not ALL of your opinions (those are really opinions since they aren´t based on first hand experience) rise from performance of cheap chinese panels. No one is going to argue they won´t do it, me myself, have tried chinese last generation panels, and i can say, they can´t outperform HID... but also, first hand experience speaking, i can say that GOOD QUALITY LEDs, have already done the magic.

Peace

 

[Wordz]

I wanna see a picture of a dryed led bud?

 

[wyteberrywidow]

Its not opinion. Its an obsevation.

I second what hyroot told you... it's not an opinion, its an observation.... you are not talking opinions when you have facts over the table. And the FACT is, LEDs have already outperformed HID, either you wanna belive it or not, that is reality. Most if not ALL of your opinions (those are really opinions since they aren´t based on first hand experience) rise from performance of cheap chinese panels. No one is going to argue they won´t do it, me myself, have tried chinese last generation panels, and i can say, they can´t outperform HID... but also, first hand experience speaking, i can say that GOOD QUALITY LEDs, have already done the magic.

Peace

But yet there is no led grows I've seen that prove other wise.. I asked earlier in this thread can you show me a led grow where it produces a pound every 2 weeks like hid can?
Pound every 3 weeks?
How about a pound every month?
Can you show me one light producing a pound and half?

Ive seen this done with hid and there is more then one person doing it so please show me?

Until then I don't see LEDs being better especially with the price tag. So like I said its your opinion!

 

[Chirulazo]

These guys already have their closed minds made up. Why try and prove anything. If they want to spend more on electric bills, replacement bulbs and ballsts, deal with high heat and lower quality buds. Thats their perogative and their loss. This thread should be done. Its a joke. If you show them proof, they will just make some excuse saying its not real. Like hans. He showed pics of every led project. Red said it was fake... So.does not matter what you say. These guys are haters and argue for the sake of arguing.


Btw I used to have an 89 bmw 325i. Great car for that time of my life.


Chi chi. Bridgelux, epiled, epistar are top quality too. Osram.and cree are chinese too.

CREE weren't supposed to be U.S.?.... And Osram well they can be from orient... but then other than the place of origin... the main fact, is efficiency, lumens per watt. High quality leds, have a more lumen per watt rate. Epistar and Bridgelux, can indeed be good leds, but they have not yet met the levels of efficiency other brands like CREE, Lumileds or Osram are pulling. Also, their temp performance, is way better, something really important when we want to pull them to high power and still mantain the eficiency. I tried a Chinese last generation panel, was made with Epistar... i can tell you, no point of comparisson with these new CREE XP-E.

But yet there is no led grows I've seen that prove other wise.. I asked earlier in this thread can you show me a led grow where it produces a pound every 2 weeks like hid can?
Pound every 3 weeks?
How about a pound every month?
Can you show me one light producing a pound and half?

Ive seen this done with hid and there is more then one person doing it so please show me?

Until then I don't see LEDs being better especially with the price tag. So like I said its your opinion!

Those questions are just to open... how much power are we talking about. I can tell that if you put 1000W leds of course you'll get a pound... and much more... i will not tell you that with 56W panel youll get a pound every two weeks... but i can tell, that you can get over 1G per watt easily with a good led panel. Something yo cant say about HID. And if we are talking lower wattage set ups, makes it even harder to en HID light to catch up with leds performance in lower power set ups since HID low power bulbs (let´s say 250W and below) are less efficient than more powerfull ones. That´s why i said and belive, HID is still better for larger scale grows... but, 400W and below, have no doubt, you'll get a lot of benefits using leds, the APPROPRIATE leds.