skunkd0c
Well-Known Member
Your generalizations of Palestinians does not help you get your message across imo
your message becomes tainted with bigotry and ethnocentrism
Israel. Oh yeah this makes sense
- Thread starter ChesusRice
- Start date
your message becomes tainted with bigotry and ethnocentrism
ChesusRice
Well-Known Member
.
Yeah right.
The Israeli Arabs have the same freedom the blacks in South Africa had during apartheid. No wonder Israel was South Africas ally during that time
Holylander
Well-Known Member
A bigot? The 1st thing I pointed out is that 20% of my country's citizens, the people I live with, work with, associate with, and serve with, entrusting my very life to in armed forces are Palestinian Israelis! The very same Palestinians, you are referencing. No different *except for the choices they have made*. In contrast, the choices Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza have made, having been given that choice now numerous times, has been as I described. If they go to elections right now, they will chose again Hamas tragically according to polling. That's not my doing, that's their choice because the truth is they prefer to try to destroy Israel from what I guess is sheer hatred. It's not me who is ethno centrist, I live and work with wonderful and highly successful Palestinian Arabs every single day, as does every other Israeli.. because those people are fellow Israelis, they are just Muslims Palestinians, so what? It's not my fault Palestinians in West Bank or Gaza choose to reject peace, or freedoms, or equality for women, and religious minorities, or that they support armed terrorism. It's not bigotry to point out that contrast between those choices, and the results, it's just factual. If you really look objectively, the ethno centrists are in Gaza. Hamas is a genocidal racist terrorist organization. Not democratic Israelis. Regards, appreciate your comment.
ChesusRice
Well-Known Member
Its the Palestinian version of the Warsaw ghetto
AlecTheGardener
Well-Known Member
There are notable and significant differences between labor policies of Israel and apartheid South Africa.
It isn't a prefect description of Israel, apartheid state, it is the closest term that describes it though.
Holylander
Well-Known Member
This is simply fiction and not true. Arabs in Israel are full equal citizens in every single way. And Gaza is a totally independent entity, and the West Bank Palestinians have full self autonomy, in internationally recognized agreements that the Palestinians have negotiated and signed themselves, delineating areas as Israel, and areas as the Palestinian Authority, where they govern themselves with joint security cooperation agreed to. It's an absurd comparison used by people who seek to do nothing but vilify Israel and simply not true.
skunkd0c
Well-Known Member
ethnocentrism
noun
the belief that one's own ethnic group, nation, or culture is superior
it sounded like to me, perhaps next time, skip that part above
i do not know enough about your situation to comment on who is meaner than who or to take sides
i just wanted to point out that your generalizing is not helpful to your cause
you as an Israeli could give the impression that you believe you're inherently better as an individual than any given Palestinian
if folk think this of you it will inhibit you getting your message across without sounding bigoted
peace
Holylander
Well-Known Member
You post these wild accusations, do you have any facts? Show me one way, not a 1000, one way that Israeli Arabs are not FULL, EQUAL CITIZENS, with full rights, the exact same as mine in every single way? What are you talking about? Do you know anything about Israel??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel
AlecTheGardener
Well-Known Member
Giving people a very difficult choice decades ago, then holding a everyone who is a descendant of that group nearly hostage will tend to cause some general unrest.
People who feel they have been mistreated will react. If resources and education are limited, rocks and clubs will be used instead of words and diplomacy. This is true of any people.
Backing someone into a corner and then being confused as to why they bite and yell at you does not make sense!
Before the kick off to this most recent excursion Israel has had into Gaza, Hamas had made more progress with trying to establish a unity government with Fatah then any other in the past.
I propose that your prime minister is trying to manipulate your citizens into re-electing his party, by preventing this unity government conflict is far more likely because Hamas is more hotheaded. Fatah could potentially keep a lid on Hamas promoting peace. More war means his party is more attractive because citizens become much more conservative during times of war and armed conflict.
The initial sparking event, Israel knew those boys were dead and allowed the public to continue to rage about it, allowing and fostering hatred.
Governments are not to be trusted, Hamas, Israel, US, Russia and all the others are corruptible.
Remember, the last step is supposed to be 'every body sucks' right?
AlecTheGardener
Well-Known Member
I am not talking about the Arab Israelis, I am taking about the Palestinians.
You seem to be specifically referring to the Arab Israelis, is so that you can say Arab citizens have the same rights? They do.
I am referring to Palestinians who do not have that citizenship.
From Wikipedia
Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, areas occupied by Israel in the 1967 Six-Day War and deemed to be occupied territory under international law, are under the civil control of thePalestinian Authority, and are not Israeli citizens. In some areas of the West Bank, they are under Israeli security control.
In 2007, the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination reported that Palestinians and Israeli settlers in the occupied territories are subject to different criminal laws, leading to longer detention and harsher punishments for Palestinians than for Israelis for the same offenses.[76]Amnesty International has reported that in the West Bank, Israeli settlers and soldiers who engage in abuses against Palestinians, including unlawful killings, enjoy "impunity" from punishment and are rarely prosecuted. However Palestinians detained by Israeli security forces may be imprisoned for prolonged periods of time, and reports of their torture and other ill-treatment are not credibly investigated.[77][78][79]
Chris McGreal, The Guardian's former chief Israel correspondent, compared Israel's Population Registry Law of 1965, which requires all residents of Israel to register their nationality, to South Africa's Apartheid-era Population Registration Act, which categorized South Africans according to racial definitions in order to determine who could live in what land. According to McGreal, the Israeli identification cards determine where people are permitted to live, affects access to some government welfare programs, and has impact on how people are likely to be treated by civil servants and policemen.[84]
In 2006, Chris McGreal of The Guardianstated that as a result of the government's control over most of the land in Israel, the vast majority of land in Israel is not available to non-Jews.[84] In 2007 in response to a 2004 petition filed by Adalah, the Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel, Attorney General Menachem Mazuz ruled that the policy was discriminatory, it has been ruled that the JNF must sell land to non-Jews, and will be compensated with other land for any such land to ensure that the overall amount of Jewish-owned land in Israel remains unchanged.[86]
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Here, you can read it all as listed, it even gives a counter argument.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_Apartheid_Analogy
If the word offends you we can find another one, but the similarities are quite striking between apartheid South Africa and Israel as it is currently.
ChesusRice
Well-Known Member
ChesusRice
Well-Known Member
Fuck Israel
I cannot think of any other ally that has spied on us, back stabbed us more than Israel
I cannot think of any other ally that has spied on us, back stabbed us more than Israel
AlecTheGardener
Well-Known Member
UK, France, Germany, and so on.
I suspect all of the usual players have their intelligence officers in place.
Just because the Mossad does it the best doesn't make it a bigger offense.
Allies and enemies spy on each other alike, this is the game of nation hood.
UncleBuck
Well-Known Member
just one of those dead giveaways.
AlecTheGardener
Well-Known Member
@Holylander
Military Service
The Israeli Government uses military service as a requirement for various public benefits. Given that the vast majority of Palestinian-Arabs are not allowed to serve in the Israeli military, this requirement camouflages as a racist policy. This limits the ability of many Palestinian-Arabs to receive “housing loans preference in public employment, and financial aid for university study.”10 However, Yeshiva students who are granted exemptions from military service when requested, nonetheless receive some of these benefits due to the “traditional place of Torah study in Jewish heritage.”11
Military Service
The Israeli Government uses military service as a requirement for various public benefits. Given that the vast majority of Palestinian-Arabs are not allowed to serve in the Israeli military, this requirement camouflages as a racist policy. This limits the ability of many Palestinian-Arabs to receive “housing loans preference in public employment, and financial aid for university study.”10 However, Yeshiva students who are granted exemptions from military service when requested, nonetheless receive some of these benefits due to the “traditional place of Torah study in Jewish heritage.”11
Holylander
Well-Known Member
Excuse me sir, but those Arabs Israelis you are referring to are PALESTINIANS. They identify as Palestinians and Israelis, proudly I might add. Further, Palestinians who live under Palestinian authority are not citizens of Israel, nor have they ever been, nor will they be?? They were ruled previously by Jordan and Egypt, many of them are in fact Jordanian or Egyptian citizens, but most are more currently citizens of the Palestinian Authority <- their elected government under full autonomy. Whatever issues of rights they have, need to be addressed to the elected govt of the Palestinian Authority who issues their laws. Further, it is wonderful to point out issues of Israeli police abuse in security arrangements, but leave out the much more abusive and corrupt, and one might even say tyrannical Palestinian policing and judicial system, which compared to Israel's is frightening on every level, this is the system Palestinians subject themselves to through their elected govt. Israel's abuses are minor in comparison. If you are such a fan of equalities and examining governments to critique them, I notice that you criticize and examine Israel's, yet leave out that same critique of the Palestinians' own govts, the Palestinian Authority and internationally recognized terrorist organization Hamas. If you are objective, you cannot focus and nitpick on Israel while ignoring wholesale the Palestinian reality, and how Palestinians they govern Palestinians.
As for the opinions of some guy in the Guardian, he is entitled to them. They are merely his opinions. I will add that the UN committees, which in blocks are controlled by anti Israel countries, they are welcome to express their anti Israel opinions as well, as a democratic society like every other, Israel is not perfect but we are ruled by laws and make all efforts to meet those ideals. Laws I will add ruled upon by Arab Israelis as well, who serve at every level of Israeli govt including the Supreme Court as equal citizens. The issue of land in Israel is a complex subject more suited for a book, the JNF you reference is not the Govt, that ruling that the JNF must make land available to all is a good one. But Arabs in Israel have always been able to, and will always be able to own land.
I tried to answer the issues you raise, in brevity because this is a forum, but the notion that there is apartheid in Israel is absurd. It's the ultimate disrespect to actual victims of Apartheid, like the South Africans were. One can stand on their head and yell Israel Apartheid if they wish, but it's not the case, it's not recognized around the world as the case, and it simply isn't true.
Holylander
Well-Known Member
This is also not factual, Arabs in Israel serve if they wish, they are not barred in any way and like many non Arabs if they do not wish to serve in the military can also serve instead in national service which is volunteer programs in hospitals and myriad other things, many Israelis, Arab or not opt for that and it includes all these benefits you speak of. Further, I immigrated to Israel after military 18 age, and did not serve in the military or national service of any kind and I am not missing any of these vague 'public benefits', which really amount to a few minor discounts here and there. The religious in Israel now must serve too. Your sources could be better.
Holylander
Well-Known Member
At least you admit openly that you are just a blatant hater, based on nothing really.. Just hatred. Good for you! I admire your honesty.
AlecTheGardener
Well-Known Member
Then you also know that Mr. Netanyahu's party has a charter, this charter specifically states their party stands for the following:
c. “The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.”
d. “The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.
Hamas' charter preamble
″Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam invalidates it, just as it invalidated others before it″
There is no negotiated settlement possible. Jihad is the only answer.[19]
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These two groups sound very similar, they both don't appear to want a two state solution.
