Who says LED and CMH can't get along?

Grow Lights Australia · Jan 23, 2020

hybridway2 said:
Damn! That does cover 3 bands of red. Pretty impressive. Same with the opposite end of the spectrum on your other UV Boards.
Will you have the ability to offer the 2 different color boards mixed 50/50, in one board. Not the COB Salad effect but all blended into each board used?
That would be something I'd considered purchasing.
Thnx!

No. There's really no point. The UV board has – what we believe – an optimal amount of blue, Near-UV and a very small amount of UVA. Terpene and cannabinoid tests have shown our boards can increase levels over standard LED (450-700nm) boards, and equal or beat the standard boards with supplemental lighting. Here's the same link as above – you guys have probably already seen it in the LED forum: https://www.rollitup.org/t/thc-cbd-terpene-test-results-uva-vs-uvb-vs-none.1001617/

Grow Lights Australia · Jan 23, 2020

Here is the comparison between the two boards. The difference is one board (UV) has 60x Sunlike near-UV LEDs and 90x Nichia Optisolis, and the other board (High Red) has 150x Optisolis. There is not a lot of difference in the spectra apart from the addition of <400-430nm – which we believe is the sweet spot for terpenes and cannabinoids.

Kassiopeija · Jan 23, 2020

Grow Lights Australia said:
That is the way LED lights are progressing. But it becomes an issue of cost and complexity. Many growers just want to set and forget, which is why we built an all-in-one board with full 400-800nm spectrum on one channel. It works, and it is simple to use compared to other LED lights with supplemental UV and far red: https://www.rollitup.org/t/thc-cbd-terpene-test-results-uva-vs-uvb-vs-none.1001617/

indeed. guess the special stuff is for the DIY guys. but as time goes by things can be better financed, developed, and maybe one manufacturer will set out to do a state-of-the-art/reference board (for a high prize) when their standard products are already selling so well so they can afford to invest into a topnotch product to label their own name as being currently the best. Ambition.

coreywebster · Jan 23, 2020

Grow Lights Australia said:
Yes and no. Compared to HIDs, LEDs convert more electrical energy to photosynthetically active radiation (PAR) and less energy to infrared radiation. This means you need fewer watts of LED (typically two thirds) to produce the same amount of PAR as CMH or HPS – which is where the common misconception that LEDs run "cooler" than HIDs comes from.

But there are other considerations.

All radiation is energy. Energy can be stored or transferred. Heat is a measure of energy transfer. So all light is eventually converted to heat.

However, plants absorb light – along with water and carbon dioxide – to make carbohydrates as part of an endothermic reaction (photosynthesis) that the plant uses and stores for energy to build biomass. This means light energy that is photosynthesised is not immediately converted to heat – not until much later, when the biomass breaks down as part of an exothermic reaction that releases it.

Infrared energy on the other hand is not photosynthesised. And it is absorbed by water much faster than visible light (PAR). This means it transfers its energy much faster – because all living things are mostly made of water.

The realty is 600W of LED produces the same amount of heat as 600W of HPS but transfers its heat in different ways and at different rates.

The problem comes from the term heat and the majority misunderstand that term to mean temp rise but heat can also be work, as in chemical energy , plant matter, the difference between 1gpw and 1.2gpw.

hybridway2 · Jan 23, 2020

Grow Lights Australia said:
Here is the comparison between the two boards. The difference is one board (UV) has 60x Sunlike near-UV LEDs and 90x Nichia Optisolis, and the other board (High Red) has 150x Optisolis. There is not a lot of difference in the spectra apart from the addition of <400-430nm – which we believe is the sweet spot for terpenes and cannabinoids.

View attachment 4462793

View attachment 4462795

Nothing a drop of 730 near the board wouldnt solve in order to have them both in one using the Near UV board only, getting that sweet spot you referred to as well as the added 730. But yeah, they are essentially the same amount of red in a nice wide band.
Very Nice!

Grow Lights Australia · Jan 23, 2020

Here is a 3000K High Light UV board (blue line) plotted against a 3000K Samsung CRI80 board (orange line). This shows you the difference between a CRI80 and CRI95 LED source with a significant shift to red. The red:far red ratio also improves and while the area under the curve of each lights is similar you can see there is almost double the amount of 720nm. We believe that's why CRI90+ LEDs finish plants faster than traditional CRI80 due to the better Pr to Pfr ratio.

hybridway2 · Jan 23, 2020

Grow Lights Australia said:
Here is a 3000K High Light UV board (blue line) plotted against a 3000K Samsung CRI80 board (orange line). This shows you the difference between a CRI80 and CRI95 LED source with a significant shift to red. The red:far red ratio also improves and while the area under the curve of each lights is similar you can see there is almost double the amount of 720nm. We believe that's why CRI90+ LEDs finish plants faster than traditional CRI80 due to the better Pr to Pfr ratio.

View attachment 4462869

My 90 CRI Nichias in 3k don't cut it for IR. I'm speaking from a SBS , plant response conclusion. Idk man, id like to see a lil round bump at the 730 spot that hits the .1 or just above.
I'd also like to see a 420 bump & 380. UVB on a separate channel/dimmable.
But overall i like them better then regular whites. Plus you spread the diodes.

hillbill · Jan 23, 2020

UV diodes have had a knock of being unreliable and burning out. Are newer ones any better? If so, why? What is the projected service for UV diodes? Thinking of throwing and old 250w CMH in there just for UV. Got welder flash several times from the Mastercolor CMH. Haven’t had em out of storage for 6 years. Got 6 new or almost new bulbs for that and a 400w.

PJ Diaz · Jan 23, 2020

I'm sure CMH plus LED is great and all, but why aren't we talking about HPS plus LED? HPS is a more efficient lamp, no? HPS puts out more of the red and far red which LED typically lacks, no? I'm working to switch over from 600w hps to around 450w LED (give or take 10%). I've been thinking about far red and stuff, and may decide to add 150w of hps to cover the all the bases.

Grow Lights Australia · Jan 24, 2020

PJ Diaz said:
I'm sure CMH plus LED is great and all, but why aren't we talking about HPS plus LED? HPS is a more efficient lamp, no? HPS puts out more of the red and far red which LED typically lacks, no? I'm working to switch over from 600w hps to around 450w LED (give or take 10%). I've been thinking about far red and stuff, and may decide to add 150w of hps to cover the all the bases.

The best HPS lamps are slightly more efficient than the best CMH, but the spectrum is inferior. Here is a spectrum graph for 8 of the best double-ended 1000W HPS lamps. They all spike in the green (570nm) with a secondary spike in the yellow/red (600nm), and of course with that huge IR spike as well. There is almost no blue and very little far red around 720-730nm.

What might be more interesting to look at are the newer CHPS lamps by Hortilux. At least in terms of spectrum, because I think I read their overall efficiency is around 25% so total PAR output would be pretty poor (their luminous efficiency is shit). However, as a red and far red compliment it's not bad and even has a bit of blue, along with the usual green-yellow HPS spike.

Still way too much efficiency lost in the infrared spectrum – but at least it would be a nice winter warmer if you needed it. I think they would probably grow nice buds if you mixed in some CRI70 or 80 LED to fill in the gaps, but you would probably waste a lot of energy doing it, and the heat footprint would be harder to deal with if you lived in a warm area, especially in summer without climate control.

hillbill · Jan 25, 2020

That spectrum looks almost scary!

Grow Lights Australia · Feb 4, 2020

I missed last week's photos so here is an update at Week 5.

Kassiopeija · Feb 7, 2020

Grow Lights Australia said:
The best HPS lamps are slightly more efficient than the best CMH, but the spectrum is inferior. Here is a spectrum graph for 8 of the best double-ended 1000W HPS lamps. They all spike in the green (570nm) with a secondary spike in the yellow/red (600nm), and of course with that huge IR spike as well. There is almost no blue and very little far red around 720-730nm.
View attachment 4464020

What might be more interesting to look at are the newer CHPS lamps by Hortilux. At least in terms of spectrum, because I think I read their overall efficiency is around 25% so total PAR output would be pretty poor (their luminous efficiency is shit). However, as a red and far red compliment it's not bad and even has a bit of blue, along with the usual green-yellow HPS spike.

Still way too much efficiency lost in the infrared spectrum – but at least it would be a nice winter warmer if you needed it. I think they would probably grow nice buds if you mixed in some CRI70 or 80 LED to fill in the gaps, but you would probably waste a lot of energy doing it, and the heat footprint would be harder to deal with if you lived in a warm area, especially in summer without climate control.

holy crap, that last CHPS spectrum pic reminds me of a lamp I just plan to use in combination with 4*75w Cree's 3590 in 3500k in order to complement the spectrum (also some 390-400nm & 730nm are there).
It's a SunMaster dual spectrum grow° photonic lamp in 250w, do you think that's also a ceramic HPS? Here's a screenie from the package... However, it says +10% more light than HPS, 11% more efficiency, and more stable output if dimmed or overdriven (BTW since you seem to know so much about lights in general can you say how a 10%-15% overdrive on HPS or MH lamps will have for an effect on the spectrum? I've made a thread but got no answers, all I want to know if the spectrum shifts more "upwards" or "downwards" in terms of color....)
However, the package also states the lamps has less IR output than conventional HPS so I'm not sure now....

Actually, I've used this lamp only once in a small 80*80 veg tent after 150w MH, but all plants stretched like mad, then I installed some additional sidelighting but still stretching like mad. Then changed to the 300w Cree COBS and it was fine.

BTW commenting on that CHPS spectrum - the gap from 575 to 600nm seems much worse than in HPS - but that's PAR and esp. in a region where secondairy metabolites will absorb the light...

I also wonder how further far that spectrum dives into the IR sector? Because it seems that lamps converts most of its energy into IR, well, at least, we don't know but it seems to spike again at around 800nm when in fact around ~675nm photosynthesis efficiency will dive swiftly down and then stop entirely @ 750nm. It's more a heat lamp, isn't it?

hybridway2 said:
UVB on a separate channel/dimmable.

is it even possible for diodes to put out UVB reliably?

hillbill said:
UV diodes have had a knock of being unreliable and burning out. Are newer ones any better? If so, why? What is the projected service for UV diodes? Thinking of throwing and old 250w CMH in there just for UV. Got welder flash several times from the Mastercolor CMH. Haven’t had em out of storage for 6 years. Got 6 new or almost new bulbs for that and a 400w.

I'd also like to know how long these UV diodes last.
But isn't it that the glass from MH's do absorb most of the UV radiation?

Kassiopeija · Feb 7, 2020

hybridway2 · Feb 7, 2020

Grow Lights Australia said:
The best HPS lamps are slightly more efficient than the best CMH, but the spectrum is inferior. Here is a spectrum graph for 8 of the best double-ended 1000W HPS lamps. They all spike in the green (570nm) with a secondary spike in the yellow/red (600nm), and of course with that huge IR spike as well. There is almost no blue and very little far red around 720-730nm.
View attachment 4464020

What might be more interesting to look at are the newer CHPS lamps by Hortilux. At least in terms of spectrum, because I think I read their overall efficiency is around 25% so total PAR output would be pretty poor (their luminous efficiency is shit). However, as a red and far red compliment it's not bad and even has a bit of blue, along with the usual green-yellow HPS spike.

Still way too much efficiency lost in the infrared spectrum – but at least it would be a nice winter warmer if you needed it. I think they would probably grow nice buds if you mixed in some CRI70 or 80 LED to fill in the gaps, but you would probably waste a lot of energy doing it, and the heat footprint would be harder to deal with if you lived in a warm area, especially in summer without climate control.

I grew one grow with this. .
Not as red to the eye as one may think looking at the spectrum.
Is a heat lamp though.

hybridway2 · Feb 7, 2020

Kassiopeija said:
holy crap, that last CHPS spectrum pic reminds me of a lamp I just plan to use in combination with 4*75w Cree's 3590 in 3500k in order to complement the spectrum (also some 390-400nm & 730nm are there).
It's a SunMaster dual spectrum grow° photonic lamp in 250w, do you think that's also a ceramic HPS? Here's a screenie from the package... However, it says +10% more light than HPS, 11% more efficiency, and more stable output if dimmed or overdriven (BTW since you seem to know so much about lights in general can you say how a 10%-15% overdrive on HPS or MH lamps will have for an effect on the spectrum? I've made a thread but got no answers, all I want to know if the spectrum shifts more "upwards" or "downwards" in terms of color....)
However, the package also states the lamps has less IR output than conventional HPS so I'm not sure now....

Actually, I've used this lamp only once in a small 80*80 veg tent after 150w MH, but all plants stretched like mad, then I installed some additional sidelighting but still stretching like mad. Then changed to the 300w Cree COBS and it was fine.

BTW commenting on that CHPS spectrum - the gap from 575 to 600nm seems much worse than in HPS - but that's PAR and esp. in a region where secondairy metabolites will absorb the light...

I also wonder how further far that spectrum dives into the IR sector? Because it seems that lamps converts most of its energy into IR, well, at least, we don't know but it seems to spike again at around 800nm when in fact around ~675nm photosynthesis efficiency will dive swiftly down and then stop entirely @ 750nm. It's more a heat lamp, isn't it?

is it even possible for diodes to put out UVB reliably?

I'd also like to know how long these UV diodes last.
But isn't it that the glass from MH's do absorb most of the UV radiation?

Gonna have to be.
Amare just did it & they have a good warrenty.
Wonder if seeing how the UVL is a lightweight version @ 660w with UVA + B if they'll knock it down to 3 yrs. Because of the UVB.

Grow Lights Australia · Feb 8, 2020

Kassiopeija said:
holy crap, that last CHPS spectrum pic reminds me of a lamp I just plan to use in combination with 4*75w Cree's 3590 in 3500k in order to complement the spectrum (also some 390-400nm & 730nm are there).
It's a SunMaster dual spectrum grow° photonic lamp in 250w, do you think that's also a ceramic HPS? Here's a screenie from the package... However, it says +10% more light than HPS, 11% more efficiency, and more stable output if dimmed or overdriven (BTW since you seem to know so much about lights in general can you say how a 10%-15% overdrive on HPS or MH lamps will have for an effect on the spectrum? I've made a thread but got no answers, all I want to know if the spectrum shifts more "upwards" or "downwards" in terms of color....)
However, the package also states the lamps has less IR output than conventional HPS so I'm not sure now....

Actually, I've used this lamp only once in a small 80*80 veg tent after 150w MH, but all plants stretched like mad, then I installed some additional sidelighting but still stretching like mad. Then changed to the 300w Cree COBS and it was fine.

BTW commenting on that CHPS spectrum - the gap from 575 to 600nm seems much worse than in HPS - but that's PAR and esp. in a region where secondairy metabolites will absorb the light...

I also wonder how further far that spectrum dives into the IR sector? Because it seems that lamps converts most of its energy into IR, well, at least, we don't know but it seems to spike again at around 800nm when in fact around ~675nm photosynthesis efficiency will dive swiftly down and then stop entirely @ 750nm. It's more a heat lamp, isn't it?

is it even possible for diodes to put out UVB reliably?

I'd also like to know how long these UV diodes last.
But isn't it that the glass from MH's do absorb most of the UV radiation?

Yes, it does appear to be a bit of a heat lamp. That's why I suggested it as a compliment to LED. Especially CRI70 LEDs, as they usually peak around 580-600nm (which would fill the gap) and run quite efficiently.

The CHPS would add red, far red, infrared (warmth), cyan, near-UV, UVA and even a small amount of UVB. I certainly wouldn't use it as a main flowering lamp, but if you needed to add some warmth to a winter grow room, it wold be much better than adding a heating element, and probably better than adding a straight HPS or CMH lamp.

hybridway2 said:
I grew one grow with this. .
Not as red to the eye as one may think looking at the spectrum.
Is a heat lamp though.

How did it grow? I would imagine lots of stretch but OK flowers (if they didn't get too hot!)

hybridway2 · Feb 8, 2020

Nott bad in comparison to hps probably but 600w of CHPS got crushed by 200w (directly above) of led by its sister plant. She was a different pheno, same strain. I call it RandomDank. The 2 had been flowered before that once, with almost identical yields.
The CHPS spilled onto that plant & was directly above its own RD#2. So, Maybe the IR was just the right amount to bennifit the led plant. Neither stretched much, but its a squat strain.
The CHPS plant hit around 13 oz & the LED plant just over a #. Flowers were good. Had to point a small fan directly at the bulb. Like you said, can't be to close or w/o air over the plant. Its not a good singular light source, very inefficient. If i had to guess, prob not much better then the MH im using & not better then a regular hps bulb.
A 600w CHPS will supplement all white (basic) leds nicely, but probably be a bitch in a tent. If they sold these in 150w, i would prob. consider dropping a few on my primarily plain white side of the room for the FR+IR/IR. LOl!
Should be documented with pics in the "LED vs HPS" thread if i remember correctly.
Agreed, i to feel it makes a nice center-piece light to provide some radiant heat & Ir to those leaves. Covering about 8x8 with it rn using the Daylight Blue MH in its socket up high as a IR & UV additive to my Vegging leds. Great for winter.

hybridway2 · Feb 8, 2020

Nott bad in comparison to hps probably but 600w of CHPS got crushed by 200w (directly above) of led by its sister plant. She was a different pheno, same strain. I call it RandomDank. The 2 had been flowered before that once, with almost identical yields.
The CHPS spilled onto that plant & was directly above its own RD#2. So, Maybe the IR was just the right amount to bennifit the led plant. Neither stretched much, but its a squat strain.
The CHPS plant hit around 13 oz & the LED plant just over a #. Flowers were good. Had to point a small fan directly at the bulb. Like you said, can't be to close or w/o air over the plant. Its not a good singular light source, very inefficient. If i had to guess, prob not much better then the MH im using & not better then a regular hps bulb.
A 600w CHPS will supplement all white (basic) leds nicely, but probably be a bitch in a tent. If they sold these in 150w, i would prob. consider dropping a few on my primarily plain white side of the room for the FR+IR/IR. LOl!
Should be documented with pics in the "LED vs HPS" thread if i remember correctly.
Agreed, i to feel it makes a nice center-piece light to provide some radiant heat & Ir to those leaves. Covering about 8x8 with it rn using the Daylight Blue MH in its socket up high as a IR & UV additive to my Vegging leds. Great for winter.

hillbill · Feb 8, 2020

Is there a pic of the light it makes. Sorry haven’t looked.

Who says LED and CMH can't get along?

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