what's legalization done for underground growers?

althor

Well-Known Member
I predict for all the basement and spare bedroom growers that major price wars will come especially when they lay their taxing scheme on the already outrageous taxes in the states where it is legalized. I am beginning to think that within the next 2 yrs, they will federally legalize it with 50% tax rate on top of the state/local taxes and it's going to fold up all the dispensaries and everything will go back underground and be a cash-only business but the amount of home growers will explode across the nation and major price wars will go on for a while. I predict that WHEN this happens, for many underground growers, in the immediate months following a federal legalization with huge taxes laid on, that for maybe a year there will be a small window of time for good underground growers to make some seriously good money because I think all the dispensaries will fold up from not being able to make a profit. I do not think this time period will last long because MANY new growers will come onto the scene. Then I predict prices will drop like a rock after a nationwide underground stabilization takes place on the market. For those already experienced that grow, I think it will bring a MASSIVE gold rush for underground growers when the dispensaries start folding up, though it probably will only last for up to a year.

Imagine being able to get 350 or so for an ounce on the street then 9 months later not even being able to get 100 for an ounce. Anyway, if this article comes to fruition that talks about a 50% federal tax rate, then there will be a major but short lived opportunity and window to make a major wad while the market price skyrockets before the stabilization kicks in. >

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2015/05/11/fed-propose-50-marijuana-tax-as-a-tax-cut/
Personally I think it is/was absolutely ridiculous that idiots were willing to pay 350 for an oz.
Sorry to the idiots that paid this ridiculous amount, but seriously, no fucking way I am spending that kind of money on buds.
I have been smoking over 30 years and if I am not growing, I smoke regs.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
I'm not in a legal state, but there's no way legalization would impact me at all. Dispensary's could never match the quality and price point I could establish, if they ever could meet my current price point and be profitable. I've seen dispensary's drop prices on their lowest grade to the mid to low $100 (zips) range on rare occasions, but I can go down the block and get their highest grade off the street for $125 (zips) all day...in the Bay. I was hanging for a second and the guys that were selling all their gear out there burst out in a pissing contest about how cheap they get their herb per oz. They get them for as low $60 a zip. Demand will never be met and quality will always command a higher ticket.

When VCR's first came out they were very expensive and somewhat heavier. As more and more companies began to make them, they became quite a bit cheaper.

Legalization will affect prices, a large variable will be the amount of taxation and the level the free market will be restricted via regulation. If the taxation remains high enough, the black market will survive ( albeit probably at lower sales prices).
Demand will be met easily though, the regulation scheme will allow government protectionism to favor their cronies, who will be permitted to produce on a huge level, acres and acres of HIGH GRADE WEED, while the home grower will not be allowed to.

Quality will still command a higher price, but not to the price scale that exists today.
Eventually thru regulation, a fancy word for favoritism granted to cronies, small growers for the most part will be put out of business.

The days of big money in growing weed will shift my friend. It's already happening.

Taxed and regulated is a scam....wait and see.
 

bluntmassa1

Well-Known Member
Just wait to federal legalization people will open companies in 3rd world nations produce the finest weed and pay employees $8 per long day of work they want us out they will get us out. The rich control everything.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Just wait to federal legalization people will open companies in 3rd world nations produce the finest weed and pay employees $8 per long day of work they want us out they will get us out. The rich control everything.



The partnership with government (protectionism and cronyism) is what causes the problems. "Taxed and regulated" is a scam and will favor the protected cronies and keep the police employed chasing the peaceful outlaws / weed moon shiners.

Weed should be totally unregulated (everything should) and then all prices, housing, food, etc would drop and people could sit around weeding their turnips, living in freely in their homes and smoke weed all day, if that is what they chose. That scenario scares the shit out the parasite ruling class though....so laws will be made to ensure a steady stream of criminals.

Morphing present day prohibition to taxed and regulated will still allow them to create many "criminals" ....and they will.
 

heelzballer

Well-Known Member
Interesting points of view here...I think the vast majority of policy regarding legalization will center around high CBD low to non-existent THC for medical treatment, and thus higher THC flowers will stay underground..Also, as dabs get more and more popular with younger gens alot of flower will wind up in the extraction markets...Niche potent flowers strain varieties to the real true smokers will be just fine...
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Interesting points of view here...I think the vast majority of policy regarding legalization will center around high CBD low to non-existent THC for medical treatment, and thus higher THC flowers will stay underground..Also, as dabs get more and more popular with younger gens alot of flower will wind up in the extraction markets...Niche potent flowers strain varieties to the real true smokers will be just fine...

That didn't seem to happen when alcohol went from a prohibited status to a taxed and regulated permission based status though.
The big boys got most of it, and will again, wait and see.

The only way to prevent this is for a truly free market to exist, no government intervention. Then a price equilibrium can occur.

The regulations coming are going to skew that. People are being lead to believe that in order to do something, it must come from "permission" from government. A dangerous precedent, "permission based freedom" will continue to gain momentum, although it is already deeply ingrained among the plantation livestock.

Fuck taxed and regulated, it's a scam.
 

dirtyshawa

Well-Known Member
When VCR's first came out they were very expensive and somewhat heavier. As more and more companies began to make them, they became quite a bit cheaper.

Legalization will affect prices, a large variable will be the amount of taxation and the level the free market will be restricted via regulation. If the taxation remains high enough, the black market will survive ( albeit probably at lower sales prices).
Demand will be met easily though, the regulation scheme will allow government protectionism to favor their cronies, who will be permitted to produce on a huge level, acres and acres of HIGH GRADE WEED, while the home grower will not be allowed to.

Quality will still command a higher price, but not to the price scale that exists today.
Eventually thru regulation, a fancy word for favoritism granted to cronies, small growers for the most part will be put out of business.

The days of big money in growing weed will shift my friend. It's already happening.

Taxed and regulated is a scam....wait and see.

Yeah, I agree with the economics of your point, but from my experience cannabis falls outside of the normal laws of economics. I doubt demand could ever be met. I have a unique perspective when it comes to distribution. I was fortunate to be around a lot of heavy weight holders in and outside of my family. The east coast has an insatiable appetite and cannabis being an annual plant is only going to exacerbate the issue when demand sky rockets, due to legalization. Think about the billions upon billions of cannabis consumption dollars that are estimated by economists now, which roughly equals hundreds of thousands of pounds produced on a yearly basis, which is probably a rough estimate. Look at how many people flocked to Colorado (and other legal states) for the chance to consume cannabis for the first time in their lives. Cannabis would be regulated as a commodity and the prices would fluctuate based off demand and be highly taxed on the state and federal level, but demand would never be met. There will never be a point where countries or people say hey, we have enough gasoline, apples, corn, rice, etc.

Furthermore, I look at it from this perspective, as someone who wholesold everything I've sold going back to '93; at $3600 lb (friends), $2800-$3200 lb (family), and at a rate of $225 per oz up until an entire lb on the lowest end of the scale. At a rough estimated expenses cost to have a perpetual grow for one year with a 1000w digital ballast (preferably 2x600 lamps on a digital splitter) in a 4x8 tent it's not hard to be extremely profitable:

$100 (utilities) a month x(12) + $80 (nutrients) quarterly x4 + $200 (lamps) semi-annually x2 + $120 (miscellaneous expenses) $1200 + $320 + $400 + $120
= $2100
In this type of setup with a 4x4 tent and a 250w cfl lamp for clones and the vegetation phase to supplement the 1000w perpetual flowering room, I can produce 2-3 lbs bi-monthly. That's 12-18 lbs per year x $2800 (on the low scale) = $33,600-$50,400

Look at how much wiggle room you have to be profitable. Legalization would have no effect on an underground grower who understands economics and has an established clientele. Also, more often than not consistency will provide you with a customer base that's basically waiting in the wings for your harvests, so you'll sell out immediately or soon there after.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Sun light is still free. Millions of lbs of high grade cannabis could be (and will be) grown in fields or greenhouses. When people don't have to hide plants anymore in the great outdoors, the cost of producing cannabis should be considerable less.

The price of weed will not dodge the laws of supply and demand, the unknown variable, for now, for small time and outlaw growers will be the amount of taxation. This will affect the market, just like prohibition does now, but how much is still a guess until the taxes are known.
 

Porky101

Well-Known Member
Sun light is still free. Millions of lbs of high grade cannabis could be (and will be) grown in fields or greenhouses. When people don't have to hide plants anymore in the great outdoors, the cost of producing cannabis should be considerable less.

The price of weed will not dodge the laws of supply and demand, the unknown variable, for now, for small time and outlaw growers will be the amount of taxation. This will affect the market, just like prohibition does now, but how much is still a guess until the taxes are known.
Sunlight is free. But it is only available in limited quantities. If you want the best quality, supplemental lighting is needed.

How much less are we talking, perhaps 1/10th of the price compared to an indoor grow (Greenhouse hydro vs indoor hydro).

The cost price per gram of indoor is 0.4USD per gram for me. Greenhouse is 0.04USD per gram. The indoor stuff moves way faster than the greenhouse / outdoor from the SAME grower and strains. I dont see that changing, even when people can grow this freely.
 

ky farmer

Well-Known Member
The underground has been booming but also gone to shit at the same time in CO.

Yeah you can find people selling $20 1/8ths or $100 ounces driving prices down, but at the same time the quality has gone to shit with a lot of people just trying to cash in on the boom. Hell I'd go back to paying $50 1/8th if I could get some of the product I got 5 or more years ago. Anymore people are just selling crap weed with a buzzword name, probably following some generic nute regiment, and not drying/curing/trimming it properly. Then when you do find someone who actually has quality product they're usually out of stock or have limits on how much you can buy. Like I found this guy with some potent ass purple trainwreck and he wouldn't sell anyone more than 1/8th a week.
The state of CO,,is hurting the price on pot in ky..there shiping there shit weed here that is supost to be burned where it will not pass the teast to be sold in despincers there in CO.FRIENDS are buying CO weed for 300.00 a pound in CO and making a killing here.
 

ky farmer

Well-Known Member
Sunlight is free. But it is only available in limited quantities. If you want the best quality, supplemental lighting is needed.

How much less are we talking, perhaps 1/10th of the price compared to an indoor grow (Greenhouse hydro vs indoor hydro).

The cost price per gram of indoor is 0.4USD per gram for me. Greenhouse is 0.04USD per gram. The indoor stuff moves way faster than the greenhouse / outdoor from the SAME grower and strains. I dont see that changing, even when people can grow this freely.
I have never in my life sean indoor weed even close to being as good as outdoor weed is.I wish any person would prouve me wrong by letting me try there best indoor weed out aginst mine and others out door weed.PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG ON INDOOR WEED for I have smoked weed grown by what lots say is the best indoor to only find it not as good as outdoor weed.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Sunlight is free. But it is only available in limited quantities. If you want the best quality, supplemental lighting is needed.

How much less are we talking, perhaps 1/10th of the price compared to an indoor grow (Greenhouse hydro vs indoor hydro).

The cost price per gram of indoor is 0.4USD per gram for me. Greenhouse is 0.04USD per gram. The indoor stuff moves way faster than the greenhouse / outdoor from the SAME grower and strains. I dont see that changing, even when people can grow this freely.
It all depends on what an individual considers "best quality" to be.

Is it bag appeal? Is it smell and/or taste? Is it the type or intensity of the high, etc. ?
Is it the ability to "win" in a bud display version of a dick measuring contest with a bunch of wet behind the ears people that think because they've been growing weed for 3 years they know everything?

I agree that a certain look is easier to achieve indoors than outdoors, but I've had some pretty nice looking indoor weed pale in comparison to some primo outdoor after I've consumed it.

It's a subjective argument, but you're probably right that nice looking and smelling indoor will fetch a higher price even in the future. I don't know that it always should, but people like shiny things.
 

Porky101

Well-Known Member
It all depends on what an individual considers "best quality" to be.

Is it bag appeal? Is it smell and/or taste? Is it the type or intensity of the high, etc. ?
Is it the ability to "win" in a bud display version of a dick measuring contest with a bunch of wet behind the ears people that think because they've been growing weed for 3 years they know everything?

I agree that a certain look is easier to achieve indoors than outdoors, but I've had some pretty nice looking indoor weed pale in comparison to some primo outdoor after I've consumed it.

It's a subjective argument, but you're probably right that nice looking and smelling indoor will fetch a higher price even in the future. I don't know that it always should, but people like shiny things.
Good point. Quality must be defined.

Who can make bigger buds, indoor or outdoor? Probably outdoor as they grow much bigger "trees".

When I talk about quality, I mean : Consistency, density and lack of chemical pesticides.

The rest is upto the genetics.

Growing outside, you will struggle to get consistency as the weather is, inconsistent.
Growing in a greenhouse without supp lighting will also mean inconsistency and possible lack of density.
Outdoors more susceptible to pests, mold, cross pollination and other potential hazards for your plants.


I see the two as completely different markets.

Indoor will always be "niche". Greenhouse with supp lighting and light deprivation systems are basically indoor setups. So that is the same as indoor in my view.

Outdoor and greenhouse with no supp lighting will be what is sold to the masses. Quantity over quality is capitalism's Achilles heel in my opinion. Sure price will drop as market forces get to work.
 

Porky101

Well-Known Member
I have never in my life sean indoor weed even close to being as good as outdoor weed is.I wish any person would prouve me wrong by letting me try there best indoor weed out aginst mine and others out door weed.PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG ON INDOOR WEED for I have smoked weed grown by what lots say is the best indoor to only find it not as good as outdoor weed.
If we ever meet one day, Im sure I will change your mind.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Good point. Quality must be defined.

Who can make bigger buds, indoor or outdoor? Probably outdoor as they grow much bigger "trees".

When I talk about quality, I mean : Consistency, density and lack of chemical pesticides.

The rest is upto the genetics.

Growing outside, you will struggle to get consistency as the weather is, inconsistent.
Growing in a greenhouse without supp lighting will also mean inconsistency and possible lack of density.
Outdoors more susceptible to pests, mold, cross pollination and other potential hazards for your plants.


I see the two as completely different markets.

Indoor will always be "niche". Greenhouse with supp lighting and light deprivation systems are basically indoor setups. So that is the same as indoor in my view.

Outdoor and greenhouse with no supp lighting will be what is sold to the masses. Quantity over quality is capitalism's Achilles heel in my opinion. Sure price will drop as market forces get to work.
We can't avoid market forces that's for sure.

I don't consider what people call "capitalism" today interchangeable with an actual free market.
In a real free market, supply and demand in conjunction with consumer feedback control pricing. Which means there's probably room for all grades of weed, which will be priced according to the aforementioned factors.

The first 5000 years or so, cannabis was grown outside. In that regard my near 50 years of weed association is miniscule, but I'm still gonna go burn a fatty now, a fine blend of outdoor, indoor and greenhouse weed from the old rolling tray. Cover all the bases. :bigjoint: Stay safe.
 

NGA

Well-Known Member
Here in Canada legalization just puts weed in the hands of all kids which is kinda unfortunate and of course first time users and people who can’t find the products any where else very pricey for those ppl ,craft industry is going strong not like 80-90 but strong I would say sales for LPs are going to diminish over time ,medical is what’s going to keep some of them alive
 

ky farmer

Well-Known Member
Here in Canada legalization just puts weed in the hands of all kids which is kinda unfortunate and of course first time users and people who can’t find the products any where else very pricey for those ppl ,craft industry is going strong not like 80-90 but strong I would say sales for LPs are going to diminish over time ,medical is what’s going to keep some of them alive
All weed is medical if its used for your meds.
 

Porky101

Well-Known Member
All weed is medical if its used for your meds.
Agreed.

Why do people use it?

To help them sleep or relax..that's a medical reason. Most use is medical. Some people try it for the first time out of curiosity, but people who use it all the time like myself, I use it to chill me out. I would consider that a medical reason
 
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