What is the Definition of a Soul?

Mr.KushMan · Mar 4, 2010

Philly_Buddah said:
The existence of ghosts, spirits, reincarnations, etc has all already been proven a long time ago. You may have not heard about it but even if you havent experienced these things, do enough research on it and youll find it.

Look for anything hard enough and you will be able to justify it. There was a person that did testing with mentally handicapped children and adults, they were told to do a series of tests with many possible correct answers. He spent his life proving not that these kids are geniuses but that you can create an equation to make any set, math, a rule.

Philly_Buddah said:
There has been people, even recently, who have recalled past lives and the other person was proven to have existed. Many of these were investigated thoroughly and there was no other way for the person to know these things.

So they couldn't have known these thing, how did they investigate?.....

Philly_Buddah said:
As I said there has been ghosts caught on video and audio devices along with being detected other ways. There have been ghosts seen that look exactly like a person, clothes and everything, and that person was found to have existed before, they saw a picture of them after and it looked identical. This has happened thousands of times. I have experienced and researched enough to go on with examples for hours, but I know people have to experience it themselves and do their own unbiased research to reach the truth.

Thats some pretty sad evidence, "We maybe saw something and it looked like.....HER!!!!"

Philly_Buddah said:
Either accept it or not, but the fact is there is more. The super-skeptics are a product of todays society, manufactured, brainwashed, and blinded. Theyre in the same category as religious hardcore creationists. Neither of them are balanced or open minded.

Sure I am willing to accept there is more, and I do agree that a great number of people are engineered by society to think they know how the universe relates to itself, that goes both ways now though.

At the same time I am sure there are tens of thousands of scientists that would be more than ecstatic to find a ghostly phenomenon but sadly it just isn't in the cards. If there were proof of an afterlife we would know.

Einstein said that he couldn't see the meaning in a spirit devoid of a body.

I think the problem is that people have a very concrete view of reality, where the truth is that its not that concrete, is more of a smear. You can never really know where its going to land, but you can make guesses and calculate your heart out.

Once again I will reiterate; I accept the possibility that the external world exists while maintaining that I can never be sure.

Peace

CrackerJax · Mar 4, 2010

He's got Bible proof. Which means he believes it and that makes it proof. :lol:

PadawanBater · Mar 4, 2010

Philly_Buddah said:
The existence of ghosts, spirits, reincarnations, etc has all already been proven a long time ago. You may have not heard about it but even if you havent experienced these things, do enough research on it and youll find it.

There has been people, even recently, who have recalled past lives and the other person was proven to have existed. Many of these were investigated thoroughly and there was no other way for the person to know these things.

As I said there has been ghosts caught on video and audio devices along with being detected other ways. There have been ghosts seen that look exactly like a person, clothes and everything, and that person was found to have existed before, they saw a picture of them after and it looked identical. This has happened thousands of times. I have experienced and researched enough to go on with examples for hours, but I know people have to experience it themselves and do their own unbiased research to reach the truth.

Either accept it or not, but the fact is there is more. The super-skeptics are a product of todays society, manufactured, brainwashed, and blinded. Theyre in the same category as religious hardcore creationists. Neither of them are balanced or open minded.

Why would a ghost wear clothes and why would the clothes it's wearing appear transparent? Did the clothes die too or something..?

What is the purpose of a ghost?

How does one become a ghost?

Why is it every single time without fail when an atheist or a skeptic asks for proof of something someone claims to be real - the automatic position is "you just haven't experienced it"? - that's what mine and Sarah's entire conversation was about, whether or not the reality we are both experiencing is subjective or objective - the REALITY is it's OBJECTIVE - our interpretation of events is what is SUBJECTIVE. Therefore someone claiming they know what the experience was better than someone else who experienced the exact same thing is absurd. That is why we need data, observations, PROOF of the event. You're feelings or interpretations don't amount to that because that's all it is. I cannot examine it or experience it just like you did, so you cannot use that as any kind of poof or evidence to support your position.

We need OBJECTIVE proof.

Mr.KushMan · Mar 4, 2010

PadawanBater said:
Why would a ghost wear clothes and why would the clothes it's wearing appear transparent? Did the clothes die too or something..?

What is the purpose of a ghost?

How does one become a ghost?

Why is it every single time without fail when an atheist or a skeptic asks for proof of something someone claims to be real - the automatic position is "you just haven't experienced it"? - that's what mine and Sarah's entire conversation was about, whether or not the reality we are both experiencing is subjective or objective - the REALITY is it's OBJECTIVE - our interpretation of events is what is SUBJECTIVE. Therefore someone claiming they know what the experience was better than someone else who experienced the exact same thing is absurd. That is why we need data, observations, PROOF of the event. You're feelings or interpretations don't amount to that because that's all it is. I cannot examine it or experience it just like you did, so you cannot use that as any kind of poof or evidence to support your position.

We need OBJECTIVE proof.

Yes but this is all assuming that there is experience beyond your own. Which I think is the real definition of soul.

Peace

PadawanBater · Mar 4, 2010

Does it strike anyone as odd that almost every answer given so far is inconsistent down to almost every detail?

CrackerJax · Mar 4, 2010

He was flailing two pages back.....

I'm guessing he didn't think it through from the beginning. Once truly examined....it all falls apart....some folks can't take that very well.

shnkrmn · Mar 4, 2010

Here's some objective proof:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Antiques-collectables/Museum-pieces-artifacts/auction-275074040.htm#qna

TWO CAPTURED GHOSTS

Current bid: $1,500.00
Reserve met
Closes: Mon 8 Mar, 9:46 pm
Listing #: 275074040

Min next bid: $ Place Bid Auto-bid

#otherImages { height: 86px; visibility: hidden; }

Photo 1 of

View full size photos

Captured ghosts from our house

Captured by an exorsist from a spiritualist church

one spirit we believe is a man by the name of Les Graham, managed to track down a photo. He died in the house in the 1920's.
Exorsist believes this spirit likes to make himself known and spook people. but he is not a very strong spirit.

The other spirit came from when me and my partner stupidly did an Oujia Board. We believe it is a little girl who likes to move things and turn things on and off. Exorsist says she is VERY strong and if left will get stronger.

We have had no activity since they were bottled on July 15th 2009 . So i believe they are in the bottles.

They are bottled with holy water as aparantly the water dulls the spirits energy, sort of puts them to sleep.

To revive the spirit, i have been told that you pour into a little dish and let it evaporate into your house.

I just want to get rid of them as they scare me. But someone might like these to play with.

So if you like ghosts, heres two real ones! Please read the questions and answers for this auctio

CrackerJax · Mar 4, 2010

Apparently..... :lol:

mindphuk · Mar 4, 2010

Philly_Buddah said:
The existence of ghosts, spirits, reincarnations, etc has all already been proven a long time ago. You may have not heard about it but even if you havent experienced these things, do enough research on it and youll find it.

There has been people, even recently, who have recalled past lives and the other person was proven to have existed. Many of these were investigated thoroughly and there was no other way for the person to know these things.

As I said there has been ghosts caught on video and audio devices along with being detected other ways. There have been ghosts seen that look exactly like a person, clothes and everything, and that person was found to have existed before, they saw a picture of them after and it looked identical. This has happened thousands of times. I have experienced and researched enough to go on with examples for hours, but I know people have to experience it themselves and do their own unbiased research to reach the truth.

Either accept it or not, but the fact is there is more. The super-skeptics are a product of todays society, manufactured, brainwashed, and blinded. Theyre in the same category as religious hardcore creationists. Neither of them are balanced or open minded.

Interesting that people take the position of skeptical inquiry with scientific empiricism and attempts to portray them as deluded as creationists in order to support their own pet bullshit belief.
Sorry bud but the standards for empirical evidence is the same for all religion and pseudoscience including your ghosts. Claiming that we don't know because we haven't researched it like you when talking to people that you don't know is profoundly stupid. You have no idea my experience and knowledge and I would put it up against yours any day.
Sorry but anyone that has verifiable evidence for life after death has a Nobel Prize waiting for him.

Philly_Buddah · Mar 7, 2010

One of the main points is this. You say you want proof that ghosts and spirits exist. And just how am I supposed to prove this to you through an online message board? And do you seriously expect me to consider, let alone take on your beliefs on this through a message board being that Ive actually had many of these experiences before and thoroughly investigated them? Ive heard every argument against me in this thread before and considered all of them thoroughly, the experience, the truth is more than words and your biased logic.

The fact is that you simply cant imagine exactly what something is going to be like until you see it and have proof for yourself. Its like trying to explain something to somebody in words who has never been through that thing before, be it youre trying to explain what your first sexual experience feels like to a 9 year old virgin or an intense psychedelic drug experience to somebody whos never even been as much as drunk before. Or just any future event or situation they could possibly go through, you can even have the thought as Ive had about future events but the actual experience is indescribable.

Now, I feel I rightly assume that none of you have been through any of these experiences because if you did Im almost positive you wouldnt be acting like you do and as skeptical as you do.

So what can I show you online through a message board so that you believe in ghosts, spirits, etc? Im reaching out to the people I know to get the ghost and audio video, which if I do get Ill put up. But then again you werent there and you cant be sure if its altered or a hoax. Ive already shared some of my personal experiences, which just proves it amounts to nothing unless the person goes through it themselves. I can spend hours looking for links and articles I saw years ago that spelled it out pretty well (which Im looking for at the moment).

Then theres the question of do I honestly care about what people on an online forum think or if they believe me? Not really, but when I have free time these topics are interesting being that I have numerous first hand experiences, know people personally who have gone through many as well, and Ive done years of research on these topics.

One thing that I will say is that you have to understand the power over you and your beliefs. Your beliefs right now can completely change within a few months or years. I should know, it happened to me. You can sit there and deny all that Im saying, for whatever reason I dont care. But know that what Im saying is not some BS or Im just making it up or doing this for fun. Theres much deeper things going on. Even Ive personally had experiences Im not comfortable sharing with anyone, Ill leave it at that. Ill put up that video and audio as soon as I get it, itll be at least a week through if I put it up. In the meantime Ill look for the links and other "proof" that might change your mind.

PadawanBater · Mar 7, 2010

Philly_Buddah said:
One of the main points is this. You say you want proof that ghosts and spirits exist. And just how am I supposed to prove this to you through an online message board? And do you seriously expect me to consider, let alone take on your beliefs on this through a message board being that Ive actually had many of these experiences before and thoroughly investigated them? Ive heard every argument against me in this thread before and considered all of them thoroughly, the experience, the truth is more than words and your biased logic.

To illustrate the issue I have with this, I'll give you an example... Can you name one thing that does exist that you could not prove on a message board? Why are ghosts or souls any different? That is the point. - if it's real, it should be clear to everyone, not just those who think they experience the phenomena. If you can't prove it, it might as well not have happened.

The fact is that you simply cant imagine exactly what something is going to be like until you see it and have proof for yourself. Its like trying to explain something to somebody in words who has never been through that thing before, be it youre trying to explain what your first sexual experience feels like to a 9 year old virgin or an intense psychedelic drug experience to somebody whos never even been as much as drunk before. Or just any future event or situation they could possibly go through, you can even have the thought as Ive had about future events but the actual experience is indescribable.

This is not proof of anything though, it's just unknown experiences you attribute for whatever reasons to ghosts... What you have is anecdotal evidence and vague memories of the event. I know how unreliable vague memories are, people believe they've experienced all kinds of illogical stuff because of it.

Now, I feel I rightly assume that none of you have been through any of these experiences because if you did Im almost positive you wouldnt be acting like you do and as skeptical as you do.

When I was a kid I thought I experienced the same kinds of things all the time. There is a logical, rational explanation for everything if you just give it enough thought, I guarantee it. Your mind is already programmed to attribute things that are unknown to you, things you can't figure out on the spot for whatever reason, to things like ghosts or spirits or whatever because it's already embedded into our culture. When you hear a noise at night your mind is already thinking "GHOST!". When you see something unknown flying through the air your mind is already thinking "ALIEN!". Same kind of thing. But like I said, if you give these things enough thought, ghosts and spirits, souls and ufo's (alien powered) are just illogical. That is why we require more evidence than just "I saw this thing this one time.." or "I know a guy who..."...

I need to measure stuff, test stuff, review the data... All it ever comes down to is "it's a personal experience, you won't understand it until you've experienced it", when I already explained, I have experienced it, exactly the same kinds of things you're talking about, except I reasoned my way out of it and decided there's no way it could have been a ghost - if it was, why haven't I seen it since? Like I mentioned before, I could come up with dozens of different reasons why ghosts specifically just are not logical, invisible clothes and limbo in "middle Earth" and such...

So what can I show you online through a message board so that you believe in ghosts, spirits, etc? Im reaching out to the people I know to get the ghost and audio video, which if I do get Ill put up. But then again you werent there and you cant be sure if its altered or a hoax. Ive already shared some of my personal experiences, which just proves it amounts to nothing unless the person goes through it themselves. I can spend hours looking for links and articles I saw years ago that spelled it out pretty well (which Im looking for at the moment).

Exactly right. Until I can actually measure something it's pointless.

Then theres the question of do I honestly care about what people on an online forum think or if they believe me? Not really, but when I have free time these topics are interesting being that I have numerous first hand experiences, know people personally who have gone through many as well, and Ive done years of research on these topics.

I'm interested in hearing about what you would consider to be the most compelling story you have, and why you think it was ghosts or whatever? Seriously.

One thing that I will say is that you have to understand the power over you and your beliefs. Your beliefs right now can completely change within a few months or years. I should know, it happened to me. You can sit there and deny all that Im saying, for whatever reason I dont care. But know that what Im saying is not some BS or Im just making it up or doing this for fun. Theres much deeper things going on. Even Ive personally had experiences Im not comfortable sharing with anyone, Ill leave it at that. Ill put up that video and audio as soon as I get it, itll be at least a week through if I put it up. In the meantime Ill look for the links and other "proof" that might change your mind.

Looking forward to it.

doc111 · Mar 7, 2010

PadawanBater said:
To illustrate the issue I have with this, I'll give you an example... Can you name one thing that does exist that you could not prove on a message board? Why are ghosts or souls any different? That is the point. - if it's real, it should be clear to everyone, not just those who think they experience the phenomena. If you can't prove it, it might as well not have happened.

This is not proof of anything though, it's just unknown experiences you attribute for whatever reasons to ghosts... What you have is anecdotal evidence and vague memories of the event. I know how unreliable vague memories are, people believe they've experienced all kinds of illogical stuff because of it.

When I was a kid I thought I experienced the same kinds of things all the time. There is a logical, rational explanation for everything if you just give it enough thought, I guarantee it. Your mind is already programmed to attribute things that are unknown to you, things you can't figure out on the spot for whatever reason, to things like ghosts or spirits or whatever because it's already embedded into our culture. When you hear a noise at night your mind is already thinking "GHOST!". When you see something unknown flying through the air your mind is already thinking "ALIEN!". Same kind of thing. But like I said, if you give these things enough thought, ghosts and spirits, souls and ufo's (alien powered) are just illogical. That is why we require more evidence than just "I saw this thing this one time.." or "I know a guy who..."...

I need to measure stuff, test stuff, review the data... All it ever comes down to is "it's a personal experience, you won't understand it until you've experienced it", when I already explained, I have experienced it, exactly the same kinds of things you're talking about, except I reasoned my way out of it and decided there's no way it could have been a ghost - if it was, why haven't I seen it since? Like I mentioned before, I could come up with dozens of different reasons why ghosts specifically just are not logical, invisible clothes and limbo in "middle Earth" and such...

Exactly right. Until I can actually measure something it's pointless.

I'm interested in hearing about what you would consider to be the most compelling story you have, and why you think it was ghosts or whatever? Seriously.

Looking forward to it.

A few decades ago blackholes were only a theory. Some astronomers and astrophysicts laughed at the idea of such a bizarre thing. It's not really a theory anymore.........science readily accepts that they exist but no one has ever seen one. In fact you can never see one because of their very nature but most scientists will tell you that they are real. Just something to think about. ;-)

PadawanBater · Mar 7, 2010

doc111 said:
A few decades ago blackholes were only a theory. Some astronomers and astrophysicts laughed at the idea of such a bizarre thing. It's not really a theory anymore.........science readily accepts that they exist but no one has ever seen one. In fact you can never see one because of their very nature but most scientists will tell you that they are real. Just something to think about.

Things that don't exist and things that we can't visually detect are two completely different things. We can detect black holes, there are measurements and observations.

There is NOTHING for ghosts or souls. Not a stitch.

mindphuk · Mar 7, 2010

doc111 said:
A few decades ago blackholes were only a theory. Some astronomers and astrophysicts laughed at the idea of such a bizarre thing. It's not really a theory anymore.........science readily accepts that they exist but no one has ever seen one. In fact you can never see one because of their very nature but most scientists will tell you that they are real. Just something to think about.

yet I can detail the empirical evidence that supports the existence of black holes here in this thread.

doc111 · Mar 7, 2010

PadawanBater said:
Things that don't exist and things that we can't visually detect are two completely different things. We can detect black holes, there are measurements and observations.

There is NOTHING for ghosts or souls. Not a stitch.

Who's to say what exists and what doesn't? We can't prove souls exist and a few decades ago we couldn't prove blackholes existed. Science is still in its infancy. :blsmoke:

morgentaler · Mar 7, 2010

doc111 said:
Who's to say what exists and what doesn't? We can't prove souls exist and a few decades ago we couldn't prove blackholes existed. Science is still in its infancy.

The difference is there was scientific evidence for black holes.
The concept of black holes was derived from evidence of objects that were warping space where nothing could be seen.
So the data was examined extensively.

Souls are a mythical construct back from the time when people were still arguing over what they were going to call the Gods they were making up.
The concept is not based on evidence, nor is there any evidence to support it. So whatever you want to say about souls, it has no basis in fact or evidence but is purely supposition whose only backing is in religious mythology.

morgentaler · Mar 7, 2010

PadawanBater said:
Things that don't exist and things that we can't visually detect are two completely different things. We can detect black holes, there are measurements and observations.

There is NOTHING for ghosts or souls. Not a stitch.

Don't forget the part where it was claimed that the soul is 21 grams!

If it has mass, it's detectable, measurable, and testable.

Don't you love people with no grasp of the natural world?

doc111 · Mar 7, 2010

morgentaler said:
The difference is there was scientific evidence for black holes.
The concept of black holes was derived from evidence of objects that were warping space where nothing could be seen.
So the data was examined extensively.

Souls are a mythical construct back from the time when people were still arguing over what they were going to call the Gods they were making up.
The concept is not based on evidence, nor is there any evidence to support it. So whatever you want to say about souls, it has no basis in fact or evidence but is purely supposition whose only backing is in religious mythology.

Has science tackled "souls" yet? I have no idea if I have a soul or not but I'm typically arrogant as most humans tend to be so I feel like there is "more" than what we can See, smell, touch, measure or quantify. I aren't smart like you mr morgentaler but I gots me sum edumucation too. :weed:

morgentaler · Mar 7, 2010

doc111 said:
Has science tackled "souls" yet? I have no idea if I have a soul or not but I'm typically arrogant as most humans tend to be so I feel like there is "more" than what we can See, smell, touch, measure or quantify. I aren't smart like you mr morgentaler but I gots me sum edumucation too.

Feel like there's more than you can sense all you want.

But once you pull something out of imagination, stick a name on it, start to define it and give it special properties, and attach it to other mythological constructs without any evidence for it puts you right in the camp with the folks who think demons cause illness.

If you feel that you can provide evidence that would indicate the presence of said object without directly observing the object then do so.

That's how other theoretical constructs became fact.

Without the evidence it's just another lame Stephen King novel.

PadawanBater · Mar 7, 2010

doc111 said:
Has science tackled "souls" yet? I have no idea if I have a soul or not but I'm typically arrogant as most humans tend to be so I feel like there is "more" than what we can See, smell, touch, measure or quantify. I aren't smart like you mr morgentaler but I gots me sum edumucation too.

Why would you "feel" like there is more than what we can detect with our senses?

Why does this matter? If we can't detect it, doesn't that essentially mean it's not real?

What is your definition for non-existence?

That might seem like an odd question to answer, but I'm just wondering what your criteria for something being real is?

What is the Definition of a Soul?

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