Water/nutes ppm question...

Geebs said:

Hi everyone,
I've gone out and purchased a nutradip nutrient reader (ppm tester) and not sure if I have it figured out...

I've calibrated with the recommended fluid
NaCl - 1000ppm

I've got a good reading from my tap water, it is coming in at around 150-160 ppm at room temperature...

Now here comes my confusion... My 3 white widow auto flowers are about 2 weeks old from seedling, and have recently been introduced to a 1000watt Hps, and I can see that they are really wanting to grow now...
https://www.rollitup.org/t/white-widow-autoflower-here-we-go.888785/

So if my tap water starts at 150-160 ppm.. How many ppms should I add of nutrients to my tap water? Like I've read lots of different opinions, but bottom line is that it's going to be a very mild nute mix... I'm just not sure if when people say that the mixture should be 200-300 ppm, if that includes my original tap water reading...

Btw I'm using 3 part GH in sunshine mix #4 which is an inert medium

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Disregarding the advice to ignore EC/PPM, use your meter and your nutes like you should. FF nutes or not - this pic is a good guide to follow in gradually raising your EC for maximum results. If you want them to idle along then use the 33% mix someone advised and get a decent chop. Or use this to learn, experiment and produce a lot of bud, not just decent amounts. I personally use GH Flora but you get the idea from this pic I hope. Opinions are like assholes -everybody has one.

For example note the change recommended in Week 6.Not raising it but lowering and the mix used. I began using this principle several years ago after being advised by another poster here to check out one of these schedules. Transition from veg to flower is a lot easier on the plants.

Thanks for the guide hotrod, I'll be sure to try out various things to try and accommodate my plants needs...

Speaking of transitioning from veg nutes to flower nutes, my 3 autoflowering white widows are now into week 4 from sprouting and lots of bud sites are showing... Next feeding I will go lighter on the N and push for more K and P... I have given them their first full stength veg nutes a few feedings ago with lots of good growth... I am currently using GH 3 part... And by following their guidelines for full veg feeding, the ppm reading was 1050-1100 including my water which is 150 ppm... So by week 4-5, as per GH guidelines, I'm feeding my plants on average, roughly 900-950 ppm of nutes...

Anything I can do to try and tighten/fatten up the buds? Or is this pretty typical autoflowering growth?

Geebs said:

So if my tap water starts at 150-160 ppm.. How many ppms should I add of nutrients to my tap water? Like I've read lots of different opinions, but bottom line is that it's going to be a very mild nute mix... I'm just not sure if when people say that the mixture should be 200-300 ppm, if that includes my original tap water reading...

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If you can't find someone using the same nutrients you do, you have to experiment and find the right strength. Typically you start at half the label's strength and work up from there. How do you know when you found "too much?" Watch for burnt leaf tips. But, that's not always the problem. Excessive nutes can accumulate and acidify the soil, causing lockout which will look like *under* feeding.

I like to monitor my runoff ppms. If they rise to 2000ppm I know I'm either overfeeding and/or not producing enough runoff. 2200ppm I'm on the verge of lockout. (2500 seems to be where it happens). I like to see 1600-1800 by flower.

It just eliminates the guess work, shooting in the dark, etc. It's useful info to have if/when you have a plant problem. It helps narrow the possibilities.

I started growing with GH Flora (3-part). I fed 800-1200ppm (which is produced by about 2/3 of the label's recommended dose). I switched to the (much) less expensive Grow More Sea Grow and fed the same amount of PPMs (which turned out to be what the product label recommended). I thought it was all about PPMs, so that should be it. I didn't see burnt leaf tips. But, by flower I had *massive* problems due to salt built up.

I don't know why some nutrients burn and others simply accumulate and acidify. I suspect the difference in my case was that GM-SG contains organic components.

Anyway, that's when I found that watching runoff PPMs is a good way to help dial in nutrient strengths. Once you find a sane strength you don't have to do it. I do it occasionally just to check that things are working ok.

Geebs said:

Anything I can do to try and tighten/fatten up the buds? Or is this pretty typical autoflowering growth?

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First plant I harvested was an autoflower under T5HO. Adding side lighting helped me the most. What lighting do you use? How many watts covering how much sq ft?

Be careful reducing N too much, especially too soon. I think too much is made of veg vs bloom nutes (to sell more boutique "lineups"). I shoot for an NPK *ratio* of 1.5-1-1.5 (maybe 2-1-1.5) in veg and 1-1.5-1.5 in flower (maybe 1-2-1.5 at the end, perhaps 1-3-1.5 once or twice at the end).

The problem is when using boutique multi-bottle "lineups" you don't know what the NPK is resulting from the mix. I created a spreadsheet to make it easier to figure that out (and, recreate it using other, simpler products). You can plug your products into that spreadsheet and see what the resulting NPK ratio is for any feeding. I have worked out some of the boutique "lineups" and they're all in the same range (mentioned above).

I like to know that info. It helps "read the plant" when you know what you're giving it, and how you changed what you're giving. For example, I sometimes add AK Fish emulsion in veg just to improve the soil microbial environment. The spreadsheet lets me know how that affects the NPK ratio. A sanity check.

Dr. Who said:

I have never really understood the following of ppm's......You don't need to, even in any hydro application!

Doesn't the nutrient maker have a feeding chart? Do they not tell you how much to add per gallon in ml?
In hydro you fill your res. You top it off with a 33% concentrate solution when you need to.
When the total amount of refill's hits the total amount of nutrient you put in the res to start - you dump and refill with 100% solution and start the whole thing over.
At the flip to flower you dump and refill with bloom formula and follow the 33% rule again....No metering, No anal matching of ppm's in top offs.......So what if you add Silica or Ca/Mg.....Just mix at what the nute makers suggest and adjust needs from there...

150 - 160 starting water ppm's = good enough, forget about that and do what you need.. Remember this - Anal is for the religious far right.....Ok for most of the right period....

Golly

Doc

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From my experience, hydro or not, if you follow the feeding chart to a tee, you will kill your plants within days.

Hot Diggity Sog said:

From my experience, hydro or not, if you follow the feeding chart to a tee, you will kill your plants within days.

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That's been my experience too. I'm growing a plant with MiracleGro Tomato right now.[1] I'm surprised that it actually seems *weaker* than what you'd assume from the 1/2 tsp/gal labeled instructions. I'm doing full strength as the 2nd set of fan leaves emerge. (That's full label strength, not half the label's directions which I would have called "full strength").

[1] Before the MG critics chime in, I'm just doing it to see how it works, have my own personal experience. Sometimes people want to try growing without a big investment. I want to see if it has potential for that situation. I would encourage someone like that to move on to Jacks or Grow More Sea Grow (which is definitely too hot if the label is followed. 5/8 strength works.).

Thanks for the clearing up guys, as for my lights az2000, I am using a Hps 1000w in a 4x4x4 space... I have also left my 6" T5HO mounted on the side of the plants as well... Figured they can use the extra lighting...

All these plants have ever gotten is just the 3 part from general hydroponics... I guess my question is, should I be adding any extra nutes to help flowering? Or is my 3 part good till the end of my grow.... Theirs a lot of products that say they grow bigger and denser buds, wondering what you guys think of these products... Kinda sounds like steroids for cannabis if you ask me... This is all for personal use so I would rather have a quality smoke then having heavy, less potent buds...

Hot Diggity Sog said:

From my experience, hydro or not, if you follow the feeding chart to a tee, you will kill your plants within days.

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Really? And what brands were those? We should all know so we can avoid them!

In everything I have run.
Canna
Hesi
Botanicare
GH
Cyco
AN (yes I tested this stuff for a growers outlet when it first came out) I used my own judgement on amounts with this crap.
All worked just fine under the makers guides

House and Garden was to hot - But they LIST it as being "hot" or "pushing"..
Dyna was fine.

I mean a lot of feeding charts are "pushing" kinda hard - not all though. But that's what all the newbies want (or the makers think so). More, Better, Faster.......
A lot of folks around here use Jack's powders - Others laugh at them for it.....I don't.

Cannabis specific nutes are NOT.......Just balanced right......AND only 2 on that list above,,,are actually balanced for Cannabis well!

Know why I do water only soils I build myself now?

Dr. Who said:

Really? And what brands were those? We should all know so we can avoid them!

In everything I have run.
Canna
Hesi
Botanicare
GH
Cyco
AN (yes I tested this stuff for a growers outlet when it first came out) I used my own judgement on amounts with this crap.
All worked just fine under the makers guides

House and Garden was to hot - But they LIST it as being "hot" or "pushing"..
Dyna was fine.

I mean a lot of feeding charts are "pushing" kinda hard - not all though. But that's what all the newbies want (or the makers think so). More, Better, Faster.......
A lot of folks around here use Jack's powders - Others laugh at them for it.....I don't.

Cannabis specific nutes are NOT.......Just balanced right......AND only 2 on that list above,,,are actually balanced for Cannabis well!

Know why I do water only soils I build myself now?

Click to expand...

Blue Planet Nutrients and House and Garden are the only 2 examples I can give. 100% strength of Blue Planet during flowering would yield an EC of 5.0+. House and Garden would be EC of 4.0+. Maybe other brands are different but 3500PPM and 2800PPM would kill my stuff instantly. I'm currently getting burn if I surpass 0.95 EC.

Hot Diggity Sog said:

Blue Planet Nutrients and House and Garden are the only 2 examples I can give. 100% strength of Blue Planet during flowering would yield an EC of 5.0+. House and Garden would be EC of 4.0+. Maybe other brands are different but 3500PPM and 2800PPM would kill my stuff instantly. I'm currently getting burn if I surpass 0.95 EC.

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I have 6 in a medium I was forced to concoct with peat, organic compost, vermiculite and perlite. I pushed it to an EC of 2.3 before any showed any OD by very gradually raising the EC. I see people saying these high PPM readings and do not believe it.

fox farm follow chart and burn plants
blue planet real high ppm's need to use at 1/4 or less
skunk lab follow feed chart made for low ppm's

Terry385 said:

fox farm follow chart and burn plants
blue planet real high ppm's need to use at 1/4 or less
skunk lab follow feed chart made for low ppm's

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Personally, I don't like FF nutes. Organic or otherwise!

Age old organic is my go to when I need to build a "Heavy feeder" nute mix......Some Maxi or AO kelp....Thrive alive organic and some of my own tea with a bit of AO bloom....ONCE a week is all they need.....