United States of Corporate America

st0wandgrow

st0wandgrow

Well-Known Member
srh88 said:
alright.. so put it this way. you obviously dont have a good job. thats just completely obvious. do you have any idea how much taxes would of had to go up to make those things happen? people arent going to give health care, teach.. for free. and our taxes right now wouldnt handle all that. so i should pay more because some little asshole wants to get a worthless degree in arts while im working my ass off?
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You're not looking at this correctly. Take healthcare as an example. If the average American family is currently paying $700 a month in premiums, and another $200 a month (on average) in co-pays and deductibles, then even if your taxes go up $400 per month it's still a net savings. Not to mention the fact that premiums, deductibles, and co-pays are after tax dollars, and any increase in taxes is taken from gross income.

For the record, I did not support his idea of free post secondary education. I think that's a step too far.
 
Dirty White Boy

Dirty White Boy

Member
Padawanbater2 said:
The content of the emails is far more interesting to me than the fact that a foreign government might want to influence our elections. We know foreign governments might want to influence our elections, if we want to protect against that, we should probably improve our cybersecurity. To me, evidence of a rigged democratic primary is enough to declare an illegitimate election, so if you actually cared about democracy, you would care about that.
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What did you find so jaw dropping about the emails?
 
srh88

srh88

Well-Known Member
st0wandgrow said:
You're not looking at this correctly. Take healthcare as an example. If the average American family is currently paying $700 a month in premiums, and another $200 a month (on average) in co-pays and deductibles, then even if your taxes go up $400 per month it's still a net savings. Not to mention the fact that premiums, deductibles, and co-pays are after tax dollars, and any increase in taxes is taken from gross income.

For the record, I did not support his idea of free post secondary education. I think that's a step too far.
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ok.. so for me. my taxes go up 400 a month. i havent seen a doctor since last january. and it was a dentist, so i just paid cash for that. also i have private insurance. how am i saving money?
 
st0wandgrow

st0wandgrow

Well-Known Member
srh88 said:
ok.. so for me. my taxes go up 400 a month. i havent seen a doctor since last january. and it was a dentist, so i just paid cash for that. also i have private insurance. how am i saving money?
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What do you pay per month for your private insurance? Take that sum off of the ledger, and keep in mind that's NET dollars you are spending on it.
 
srh88

srh88

Well-Known Member
st0wandgrow said:
What do you pay per month for your private insurance? Take that sum off of the ledger, and keep in mind that's NET dollars you are spending on it.
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i pay a lot more than 400. but i am ok with that.. if i want to i can cancel it and my taxes will still be the same. i can shop around if i want. the worst insurance i have is my business insurance.. its not cheap. i got a few cars on it. my house. and a few other things. and im covered up to 3 million in damages. health care and shit like that is cheap.
 
st0wandgrow

st0wandgrow

Well-Known Member
srh88 said:
i pay a lot more than 400. but i am ok with that.. if i want to i can cancel it and my taxes will still be the same. i can shop around if i want. the worst insurance i have is my business insurance.. its not cheap. i got a few cars on it. my house. and a few other things. and im covered up to 3 million in damages. health care and shit like that is cheap.
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His proposal was a 2.2% payroll tax for individuals up to $200k, and families up to $250k. So, if you gross 100k per year, you'd pay an additional $180 per month (pre tax dollars). Roughly $125 net per month for full coverage.

No way a family grossing 100k per year is paying less than $125 per month for full coverage (not even factoring in co-pays and deductibles which wouldn't exist in a single payer system).

It's a huge savings for everyone, and is accomplished by eliminating health insurance companies and negotiating more reasonable pricing for health care services.
 
srh88

srh88

Well-Known Member
st0wandgrow said:
His proposal was a 2.2% payroll tax for individuals up to $200k, and families up to $250k. So, if you gross 100k per year, you'd pay an additional $180 per month (pre tax dollars). Roughly $125 net per month for full coverage.

No way a family grossing 100k per year is paying less than $125 per month for full coverage (not even factoring in co-pays and deductibles which wouldn't exist in a single payer system).

It's a huge savings for everyone, and is accomplished by eliminating health insurance companies and negotiating more reasonable pricing for health care services.
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it would be a good saving but then again.. insurance companies can still beat that price. they are just too money hungry. which makes sense.. its america. either way id still rather keep my private insurance.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
srh88 said:
it would be a good saving but then again.. insurance companies can still beat that price. they are just too money hungry. which makes sense.. its america. either way id still rather keep my private insurance.
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I think you are missing an important point regarding cost of healthcare. The US subsidizes health care already to the point that it already can be called a public health care system with an insurance company as a middle man for those with the money to pay CEO salaries, shareholder dividends and overhead, which is a joke. Because insurance companies have a conflict of interest when it comes to keeping overhead and treatment costs down.

Comparing US health care costs to other similar nations we have the most expensive health care with the worse outcomes in terms of life expectancy, underweight births, and many other measures of health care value. Putting Congress in charge of paying low income medical treatment makes it even worse. I don't understand the reluctance of the US average joe towards universal healthcare when better, lower cost and affordable results are proven to be available when a country socializes it's health care delivery system.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
The content of the emails is far more interesting to me than the fact that a foreign government might want to influence our elections. We know foreign governments might want to influence our elections, if we want to protect against that, we should probably improve our cybersecurity. To me, evidence of a rigged democratic primary is enough to declare an illegitimate election, so if you actually cared about democracy, you would care about that.
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Dirty White Boy said:
What did you find so jaw dropping about the emails?
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@Padawanbater2 , are you not able to answer DWB's question?
 
tangerinegreen555

tangerinegreen555

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
I think you are missing an important point regarding cost of healthcare. The US subsidizes health care already to the point that it already can be called a public health care system with an insurance company as a middle man for those with the money to pay CEO salaries, shareholder dividends and overhead, which is a joke. Because insurance companies have a conflict of interest when it comes to keeping overhead and treatment costs down.

Comparing US health care costs to other similar nations we have the most expensive health care with the worse outcomes in terms of life expectancy, underweight births, and many other measures of health care value. Putting Congress in charge of paying low income medical treatment makes it even worse. I don't understand the reluctance of the US average joe towards universal healthcare when better, lower cost and affordable results are proven to be available when a country socializes it's health care delivery system.
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I've had insurance my entire life from my employer, they were also my dad's employer.
I hardly ever used that insurance when I was young. The local Dr. charged $10 cash for an office visit in the '70's through the '80's. A script for Amoxicilln was another $10. We didn't even turn that shit in.
We had the last baby in '89. $2000 bill at a very good hospital, $4. copay.
Then, somewhere along the way, a whole bunch of people got real fucking greedy.

Now, $200 for and office visit, $20 co-pay.
The insurance letter shows Dr. charged $200, but accepts $70 from insurance company via 'special agreement' ;-).
The same Amoxicillin is now $200. I pay $12. I can understand Dr. charging more because Mercedes cost more.
But those simple old antibiotics don't cost $200 to produce. In other countries, they're still $10.
Some things shouldn't be for profit. Drug companies and health insurance companies are seriously price gouging.

Think Trump even cares? Fuck no. Health insurance rates aren't going down without regulations, neither are drug prices.

You could wipe out the opiod epidemic with legal cannabis edibles. You notice what lobbies oppose that?

We're fucked for years, I'm afraid. And there are ways to fix a lot of this shit.
 
Dirty White Boy

Dirty White Boy

Member
Padawanbater2 said:
The fact that they showed direct media, DNC and Clinton campaign collusion to rig the democratic primary
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You'd have to have your head buried pretty fucking deep to not already know that though.

I'm curious to all the trump supporters what exactly are you all fucking wanting as far as change and making America great again? What is it that really motivated you. I've gotten that the government is corrupt etc. but what is it you think trump is going to revolutionize and how. With his appointments and back peddling of his promises made during campaigning he has already turned his back on what his supporters wanted and cheered for at rallies......."build the wall" being a big one or repealing Obamacare, or draining the swamp. I can't help but laugh at a lot of his supporters, and there arguments and insults.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
tangerinegreen555 said:
I've had insurance my entire life from my employer, they were also my dad's employer.
I hardly ever used that insurance when I was young. The local Dr. charged $10 cash for an office visit in the '70's through the '80's. A script for Amoxicilln was another $10. We didn't even turn that shit in.
We had the last baby in '89. $2000 bill at a very good hospital, $4. copay.
Then, somewhere along the way, a whole bunch of people got real fucking greedy.

Now, $200 for and office visit, $20 co-pay.
The insurance letter shows Dr. charged $200, but accepts $70 from insurance company via 'special agreement' ;-).
The same Amoxicillin is now $200. I pay $12. I can understand Dr. charging more because Mercedes cost more.
But those simple old antibiotics don't cost $200 to produce. In other countries, they're still $10.
Some things shouldn't be for profit. Drug companies and health insurance companies are seriously price gouging.

Think Trump even cares? Fuck no. Health insurance rates aren't going down without regulations, neither are drug prices.

You could wipe out the opiod epidemic with legal cannabis edibles. You notice what lobbies oppose that?

We're fucked for years, I'm afraid. And there are ways to fix a lot of this shit.
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Its not done yet. First, they have to break a filibustered Senate to ram through a bill that turns Medicare into private insurance. Also, there is no reason why the same filibuster tactic can't be used to prevent repealing the ACA without showing the public what it will be replaced with. Meanwhile, let the "dishonest media" but factually correct press reveal to the public what the Republicans are doing to their health care costs.

In any case, yes, US medical bills have gone up and outpaced inflation for some time now. What interest do insurance companies have in keeping them down? They are money managers and take a percentage off the top to pay for their "services". This, while Canada and other countries have kept costs down while providing better medical results.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
The actions by the Clinton campaign and the DNC is a big part of the reason she lost the election
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We are talking about Bernie's loss by millions of voters. More than 12% margin that Clinton won by. That's what is up for dispute.

The effect on Clinton's campaign is a different story. Are you ready to give up on your strange idea that a couple of inept operatives talking with a few people in the media caused millions of people to vote for Clinton?

Have you read the stolen wikileaks e-mails? I did and they are banal. If you actually look at what was said instead of listen to the voices in your head, maybe you would just give up on this. But maybe I missed some when I took a look for myself. Show me the messages that make you so certain.
 
Padawanbater2

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
We are talking about Bernie's loss by millions of voters. More than 12% margin that Clinton won by. That's what is up for dispute.

The effect on Clinton's campaign is a different story. Are you ready to give up on your strange idea that a couple of inept operatives talking with a few people in the media caused millions of people to vote for Clinton?

Have you read the stolen wikileaks e-mails? I did and they are banal. If you actually look at what was said instead of listen to the voices in your head, maybe you would just give up on this. But maybe I missed some when I took a look for myself. Show me the messages that make you so certain.
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The Clinton campaign and the DNCs actions during the democratic primary are a major reason Clinton lost the general election to Trump

I'm not particularly interested in talking about the evidence of that because I don't believe you're interested in actually seeing it. I've provided it before, go look in the DNC email leaks thread if you want to see it. If it's all so banal, she wouldn't have lost the election. She abandoned the middle-class and got caught with her hand in the cookie jar, the combination of which, and probably a few other things, is why she lost to Trump.
 
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