Uncle Ben's Topping Technique to Get 2 or 4 Main Colas

Uncle Ben,

Amazing thread. I stumbled upon it years ago and I'm amazed to see it active still. I have read through a couple hundred pages and have found tons of answers but there are a couple things I am still not clear on. I apologize if it's been covered but I missed the points.

-If a grower is looking to cut veg time by increasing plant numbers, lets say 16 plants per 600w light, do you think the grower would see better yields using the topping for 2 colas, 4 colas or perhaps just letting it go natural and trying to limit the plant to one main cola? It seems most people here are using lower plant numbers.

I was imagining possibly a set up with 2 colas per plant , meaning 32 colas per 600w. obviously each plant will be smaller, but by cutting down veg time I think I can get 1 more grow out per year and I have limited space, so I can't veg for longer in another room.

-Also, I have read the FAQ and frequent questions about clones with alternating nodes. I see that you have stated that if you give these clones a long light cycle they will revert back to opposing nodes. Any idea of how long that would take? Do they always revert to opposing nodes? And if you do top a plant with alternating nodes, I understand that you will not necessarily get the uniform 4 colas, but what will the effect be? A generally bushy plant? More colas but an unpredictable number of them?

-In a garden with 16 plants per 600w , in the case that the clone has alternating nodes or perhaps it would take too long to revert to opposing, would you think I would be best: a) letting the plant grow naturally with no topping, b) still topping above the 1st or 2nd node and hoping for the best, 2 - 4 colas c) topping higher up the plant below the newest node, essentially just making the plant into a big bush with no true cola.

-I also see that you and others here are against removing leaves that obviously collect the light to drive plant growth. But when you say that you don't like to remove foliage, are you saying that you would not prune any growth shoots from the lower third of the plant?

I have been thinking of using either your method or pistilwhipt's topping method but I am not sure what would be best considering my high plant numbers and the fact I am using clones. pistilwhipt reccomend something similar to you but slightly different. He says to let it grow to 7 nodes, prune bottom 3 nodes, top below upper node or second from the top, which leaves you with 2-3 pairs (yet a longer stem below those pairs). Another difference being that he also reccomends that before the 2nd week of flower, trip all lower growth shoots that are too close to the main stem or will not receive enough light to produce dense nug. I know you disagree with the idea of redistributing 'energy' etc, but perhaps it has benefits of at least promoting airflow and therefore reducing mold risk.

I appreciate the clarification. Sorry for the longwinded post. It's obvious that this thread has helped tons of gardeners and I plan on giving it a try myself. I typically haven't topped at all and go for higher plant numbers and 1 single cola - more of a SOG approach.

Thanks again for a great discussion and for introducing your topping method and taking the time to help out growers looking to increase yields. I will report back with pics to show the effects on smaller plants with high numbers.




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Hey guys, i can't see the pictures of this thread. Shows an image icon with an X on its right. Is it just me or is anyone else having the same problem?

Howdy, gonna make this cryptic as I've answered these questions before.

csenoner said:

If a grower is looking to cut veg time by increasing plant numbers,

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Numbers has no bearing on the veg time YOU choose.

lets say 16 plants per 600w light, do you think the grower would see better yields using the topping for 2 colas, 4 colas or perhaps just letting it go natural and trying to limit the plant to one main cola? It seems most people here are using lower plant numbers.

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Don't know. You'll just have to try it and see.

- Also, I have read the FAQ and frequent questions about clones with alternating nodes. I see that you have stated that if you give these clones a long light cycle they will revert back to opposing nodes. Any idea of how long that would take? Do they always revert to opposing nodes?

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It's been too long since I played those games, like over 10 years. Don't remember. If you want to try reveg, go to a photoperiod of 20/4, hit them with a high N food to push foliage and watch. What I do remember is the plants reverted back and followed the typical stage of growth of a juvenile plant starting with 3 leaf leafsets so I can assume they also have opposing nodes.

And if you do top a plant with alternating nodes, I understand that you will not necessarily get the uniform 4 colas, but what will the effect be? A generally bushy plant?

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Yes. You need to understand this plant's structure and then the answer will be transparent.

-In a garden with 16 plants per 600w , in the case that the clone has alternating nodes or perhaps it would take too long to revert to opposing, would you think I would be best: a) letting the plant grow naturally with no topping, b) still topping above the 1st or 2nd node and hoping for the best, 2 - 4 colas c) topping higher up the plant below the newest node, essentially just making the plant into a big bush with no true cola.

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Based on the responses of no topping versus topping, what do you want to end up with? I can't make that call, it's your choice.

-I also see that you and others here are against removing leaves that obviously collect the light to drive plant growth. But when you say that you don't like to remove foliage, are you saying that you would not prune any growth shoots from the lower third of the plant?

Click to expand...

Correct.

I have been thinking of using either your method or pistilwhipt's topping method but I am not sure what would be best considering my high plant numbers and the fact I am using clones. pistilwhipt reccomend something similar to you but slightly different. He says to let it grow to 7 nodes, prune bottom 3 nodes, top below upper node or second from the top, which leaves you with 2-3 pairs (yet a longer stem below those pairs). Another difference being that he also reccomends that before the 2nd week of flower, trip all lower growth shoots that are too close to the main stem or will not receive enough light to produce dense nug. I know you disagree with the idea of redistributing 'energy' etc, but perhaps it has benefits of at least promoting airflow and therefore reducing mold risk.
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Once you decide that you're thoroughly confused with all the complicated BS everyone says you should do "because it works for me", do what you want based on a solid botanical concepts.

Good luck,
UB

^^this^^

Also realize that its your garden and you can do whatever you want, with or without approval from those on this board.

I could train my plants to grow in shapes like the letters of my name if I wanted to. Is that a "solid botanical practice"?, no. But, it works for me...

Basically its a plant. It'll grow if you provide for its basic needs, or as UB says, know what makes it tick. After that, it up to you what you decide to do with your garden...

Don't let anyone tell you what to do, use info on this site as a general guide, not an exact blueprint.

Once you've got a basic understanding of how to grow, then try different techniques, mix em up and see what happens, come up with your own innovative ideas and see how it stacks up against conventional wisdoms... But remember, at the basic level its still a plant like many others...

Good luck to you!

All good advise, I still like the " Keep it simple stoner" approach. Less is more is what I have found to be the best.

Yep, I'm a simple man and that's the way I grow, using the KISS method.

Everyone does their own thing based on their comfort zone, lifestyle, goals, etc. but once you dial in your program you need to stick with it and tweek it. Too many noobs jump from one thing to another "cause it works" and they saw another guy doing "it" on some cannabis grow forum. "I started in soil but now I do dro!"

I think once you dial in a system is the perfect time to switch it up. Learn how all the different systems work and pull the best from each into your own unique system.

That's how I do it, I take advice from everybody and make my own thing.



Here's an example of something that I put together with bits and pieces from cfl forums, hydro forums, micro/cab forums, and vertical lighting... Obviously a custom made system made for my space and need requirement

That would be too complicated for me but it's not my garden. If it's working for you and you're having fun, then git er done!

Its all automated... I just sit back and watch really... Gotta love it. Hope you all have a wonderful day!

Thanks for the replies guys. Sorry if u ended up covering things you ahve already covered. I have been picking through the thread and might have missed a few things.

I am sure you have discussed this before so I am not going to push you to explain. But I was under the impression that based on amount of pure foliage, 1 small plant would not yield as much bud as say 16 small plants under the same veg time and same growing conditions. Perhaps I am wrong about that.

I thought that the single plant could yield as much as the 16 plants if it is vegged longer and allowed to build up enough foliage to match the 16 small pants.

If you guys are saying that yield is dependent on foliage and therefore its good to veg after topping and also its good not to strip away lower foliage, then wouldnt also mean more plants =more foliage=more bud (given equal veg time)?

Perhaps the idea is the single plant would receive so much light that if properly fed and cared for it would soon produce enough foliage rapidly that it would catch up to and could equal the yield of the 16 plants.

I know that I recently took some advice to grow 25 plants per 600w and I yielded less that I used to Srogging 4 plants. I guess the only way to really know is to do controlled A/B testing.
Based on the responses of no topping versus topping, what do you want to end up with? I can't make that call, it's your choice.


Really I am just looking for maximum yield. Another reason I am interested in this method is that big colas are easier to trip than lots of small buds and therefore by increasing the number of colas I am hoping to speed up the trim job. So creating more big buds and less hard to trip bud.



"""Once you decide that you're thoroughly confused with all the complicated BS everyone says you should do "because it works for me", do what you want based on a solid botanical concepts.

Good luck,
UB"""

I already have reached that point! The fact is everyne has their own methods work and many of them work. marijuana grows if healthy and given enough light. thats for sure. I took some advice from some 'experts' who advised me to go with 25 plants per 600w, and using a super complicated canna coco feeding schedule that caused tempermental ph swings, and somehow my ladies turned into hermies. When i grew 4 plants per light in soil with flora nova bloom I saw better results. every step along the way they told me my way was wrong and to trust them as they are pros. in the end, my yield suffered my bud was not great, i had hermies, and the most disappointing crop I've ever had. from that point I decided to have no one else to blame to do the research, test and take notes and measure results objectively and find out what works best for me.

all the 'pros' wanna tell you that you are wrong, but when u are producing high yields of premo shit how can they deny those results. people often trash what is different than what they know but many things have been proven to work.

I am interested to do some a/b tests and then measure yields and figure it out myself.

i think producing healthy plants with enoug light and with good genetics drives yields. all the rest is just tinkering. but im at the point where i would like to keep tinkering until i max out my yields.

csenoner said:

Thanks for the replies guys. Sorry if u ended up covering things you ahve already covered. I have been picking through the thread and might have missed a few things.

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i guess i havent figured out this quoting thing ahhahal

csenoner said:

i guess i havent figured out this quoting thing ahhahal

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It sounds like you'd be better off with vegging a couple plants to medium size and then flowering them...

If that's what you're more comfortable with and what you have experience with then do it!

Good luck!

a senile fungus said:

It sounds like you'd be better off with vegging a couple plants to medium size and then flowering them...

If that's what you're more comfortable with and what you have experience with then do it!

Good luck!

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yeah might be a good idea. i am trying to run a set up that is as low maintenance as possible with drippers in coco using H3ad's modified lucas method. Looking for simplicity and stability and low maintenance. il post pics when im set up.

Uncle Ben said:

That would be too complicated for me but it's not my garden. If it's working for you and you're having fun, then git er done!

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Uncle Ben, Could you post how much alfalfa you use in your grow mixture. If I am wrong please disregard

DaveTheNewbie said:

Im a big fan of topping for 4 colas, but i double top, aka top then top those 2 branches at the next node.

Here are my results :

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Hey guys didn't want to read through 200+ pages...What's the deal with doing a "double top" like this ? Is it worthwhile ? Or is it better to stick with the original top job to produce 4 colas ?

thnx, SC

SpaaaceCowboy said:

Hey guys didn't want to read through 200+ pages...What's the deal with doing a "double top" like this ? Is it worthwhile ? Or is it better to stick with the original top job to produce 4 colas ?

thnx, SC

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From what I have seen it's personal preference. The whole point of topping for 4 is to have a better even canopy of you top those 4 tops you will have a bushy plant with less predictable growth on the secondary tops. I think 4 main colas with a few side colas are the way to go.

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csenoner said:

"""Once you decide that you're thoroughly confused with all the complicated BS everyone says you should do "because it works for me", do what you want based on a solid botanical concepts.

Good luck,
UB"""

I already have reached that point!....in the end, my yield suffered my bud was not great, i had hermies, and the most disappointing crop I've ever had. from that point I decided to have no one else to blame to do the research, test and take notes and measure results objectively and find out what works best for me.

Click to expand...

I rest my case. IMO cannabis forums are the worst places to learn normal, solid botanical gardening methods of any place you could go for help. For a newbie this place can be a disaster due to the myths, ill founded paradigms, the herd mentality. Popular is usually NOT right.

Indoors I do bushes that finish out over 36" tall. "SOB". I can get up to 10 oz per plant with far less maintenance that 20. It's a no brainer for me. Being simple, I start with simple stuff like good potting soil, tap water, non-cannabis specific foods, etc. There, that's "simplicity and stability and low maintenance".

Good luck,
UB

Alfalfa - in a 30 gallon mix, about 4 cups of alfalfa cubes aka horse cubes or nuggets. Let them soak until they dissolve then use the slurry to moisten your soil.

Alright Uncle Ben,

Have been lurking and working for a while now. Learned alot from guys like yourself and home brewer. I am in week 5 of flower and doing pretty well in my opinion for it being my first time. I Let the clones grow without topping, lst, or any other form of training to keep it simple. Using dyna gro and aiming for 1-3-2 the whole way through flower and focusin on keepin m foliage healthy. I've found that I have 2 different phenos. 1 is shorter, thicker, and producing some thick, tight and massive buds. After 6 weeks of veg, they wound up about 30 inches after stretch in he first 2 weeks of 12/12. I thought they would suck compared to the other pheno that is leggier, and this leggier pheno stretched to around 40 inches. The problem w these ones is the spacing between nodes once they hit stretch. They spaced a little too far for my liking and unless they start stacking calyxes through the remainder of flower, I don't see them becoming thick dense buds. Really, the jury will be out until harvest for final results. But temp, humidity, and feeding schedule have been constant.

The clones I took are doing way better than the clones givin to me originally. They are about 13 days into 18/6 and kicking butt. I want to top the taller leggy pheno. Sensi Star is what they are, and they are 80/20 indica.

I've read so much information from so many different posters, and I like the fundamental approach you and HB take so while I'm still figuring out what works for me, I'm following the basics you've laid out.

I have one simple question, and I know that I have to find what works for me. But my question is, in your experience, at what node do you like to top your clones have alternating nodes. I am asking you this because I respect your opinion. I know you like people to find out what works best for them. But in the meantime, I'd like to continue taking the advice of guys like yourself and HB. So in your experience, at what node have you found gives you the best results to top on a clone. I know this will not produce the 2 or 4 main colas. I just want to make the most efficient cut and keep the leggier pheno more compact.

I know this question probably annoys you, but please help a brother out and share that bit of wisdom. You can tell me to go fly a kite after, just as long as you tell me what's worked best for you in topping clones. I'm trying to follow your play book, keep it simple, and start w the fundamentals, so I hope you can at least respect that.

Thanks

I don't do clones, only seeds, sorry.

Any time you top the plant becomes more bushy - your call.