The ULTIMATE Flowering Spectrum

PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
^ Yes, but not hps is created equal. As long as the spectrum is ~ 3000- 5000, the vg results are at hand, assuming all other essential components are within reasonable tolerance. I set out to prove this in my current LED thread, but felt an obligation to BrandX, new breeder to add 650-660. However, I have clones, so they will get the 3000K treatment. Got them under 5000K now for rooting. Do you think they will root as well under a 3000K WW?

PLEASE EXCUSE THE JACK FONZ

UB, PLEASE ANSWER IN MY THREAD
 
Fonzarelli

Fonzarelli

Active Member
Uncle Ben said:
My avatar was grown from start to finish with HPS only. Plant doesn't care and will produce well if all other factors are in balance. I too get caught up in the spectrum hype.

UB
Click to expand...
Of course a plant will grow well under HPS only. I've used HPS for many years and my only gripe is that the initial "shock" of switching from MH to HPS in 12/12 is a bit much. I'm not trying to show that HPS alone is worthless, I'm GOING to show that the additional much "wanted" deeper wavelengths, and blue, are going to speed up the flowering process allowing more bud and trichs to be produced in the limited flowering window for this specific strain and also produce a better quality/tasting bud like MH is known for.

Photosynthesis spectra are not "hype." LOL It's known that specific wavelengths target the photosynthesis process more efficiently thus producing MORE for the energy at hand. Also the correct spectrum balance plays a large part. No, it's not an exact science, but I've already seen amazing things happen using these important and much needed wavelengths.

What I'm looking for is the QUANTITY/DENSITY that HPS brings, but with the quality and health/vigor that MH and LED bring to the table. If you are looking for HPS only grows, there are many out there getting the job done. BUT, after exposing my plants to these "other" wavelengths, I will never go back........you really have to try it for yourself to understand. Have you ever given CMH a try? This is similar, but even better.

You also need to understand that not all strains are created equal. Some strains produce extremely well under HPS alone while other come in a distant distant last. It's these strains that can really use a spectrum boost to produce to their fullest potential. I grow plants to their fullest potential doing it this way. But the results will speak for themselves.

The only part I am questioning here at this point is "if there is enough blue light" to balance out the wide spectrum red light in order make 100% use of ALL LIGHT ENERGY being used. There is a point when you have more red light than the plant can handle and there needs to be more blue light so that the plant can make use of it all. It IS entirely possible that 1000w HPS may be more red light than the plants can absorb when combining the 1000w HPS with the 300w of red/blue LED.

Well just have to wait and see!:blsmoke: b patient
 
Fonzarelli

Fonzarelli

Active Member
PetFlora said:
^ Yes, but not hps is created equal. As long as the spectrum is ~ 3000- 5000, the vg results are at hand, assuming all other essential components are within reasonable tolerance. I set out to prove this in my current LED thread, but felt an obligation to BrandX, new breeder to add 650-660. However, I have clones, so they will get the 3000K treatment. Got them under 5000K now for rooting. Do you think they will root as well under a 3000K WW?

PLEASE EXCUSE THE JACK FONZ

UB, PLEASE ANSWER IN MY THREAD
Click to expand...
Do you know the difference between growing under the Sun vs. HPS? Do you know how the plants look, the quality of bud, the nice leaf structure that the Sun induces. This is what my plants look like after bathing under specific wavelengths of light when combined with MH and now I am trying it with HPS to see if it works even better.

It's not about what Kelvin your lights are running at, it's about the right wavelengths being used at the right balance. Kelvin only has to do with what humans see, not plants. When you start adding deep blue and deep red/far red to a spectrum it will not effect the Kelvin rating as much as cyan/green/yellow will but WILL effect how the plant responds/grows to an EXTREME degree.

When you are talking about your basic MH or HPS lights that use the SAME exact wavelengths and chemicals to make the lamps, then Kelvin plays a role only because there is a specific spectrum being used with specific wavelengths.

You would be surprised just how similar HPS light spectra are. When people do threads on how much better the HORTILUX HPS is vs X HPS I start to wonder who they are working for. I've taken the SA readings from many different HPS lights and they are all pretty much the exact same. Enough of the same that the minor difference are NOT going to make a difference in your plants larger than 10%.
 
Fonzarelli

Fonzarelli

Active Member
I think this will clear up UB's mind;

When I take my light meter and point it at the Sun, I get a reading of around 75,000. When I point my light meter at my HPS I get the same intensity reading. Therefore, we know that light intensity is not what makes the Sun grow plants better. It's the UNSEEN wavelengths that makes the Sun the better light. It's the UNSEEN light wavelengths that I am adding to the HPS to make it grow plants with the same quality as the Sun grows them. The reason the Sun grows buds bigger/better is due to the quantity of properly balanced deep red/far red that's in the Sun's spectrum along with the deeper blue light etc.

Here is the Sun's spectrum on a Fall early afternoon day.

Here is the spectrum I am using right now,

Here is the spectrum for HPS alone,

hps SA.jpg

See the difference?

The closer you get your INDOOR SPECTRUM to resemble the SUN'S OUTDOOR SPECTRUM, the closer you get to getting the SAME QUALITY/QUANTITY of buds indoor as outdoor.

If I was to take my spectrum and use it over a hydro table with CO2 the results would be unbelievable. Hey, I may have to do just that!
 
P

PurpleBuz

Well-Known Member
Fonzarelli said:
I think this will clear up UB's mind;

When I take my light meter and point it at the Sun, I get a reading of around 75,000. When I point my light meter at my HPS I get the same intensity reading. Therefore, we know that light intensity is not what makes the Sun grow plants better. It's the UNSEEN wavelengths that makes the Sun the better light. It's the UNSEEN light wavelengths that I am adding to the HPS to make it grow plants with the same quality as the Sun grows them. The reason the Sun grows buds bigger/better is due to the quantity of properly balanced deep red/far red that's in the Sun's spectrum along with the deeper blue light etc.
Click to expand...
yes all true.

you also have the effect of an automated light mover providing all around lighting.
 
Fonzarelli

Fonzarelli

Active Member
PurpleBuz said:
yes all true.

you also have the effect of an automated light mover providing all around lighting.
Click to expand...
So let's just focus on the main colas for now since they are getting the majority of light and see how they compare to outdoor grown herb or herb grown under HPS alone.
 
Fonzarelli

Fonzarelli

Active Member
This is my best attempt at overlapping the spectrum with PAR. LOL If someone can do it better, please do!
overlapped spectrum.jpg

You can see by this that plants really have to adapt to a sole HPS spectrum. Adding the other wavelengths are ONLY going to make the plants happier.
 
Fonzarelli

Fonzarelli

Active Member
So far so good. These plants are at 30 days and have been under 1000w MH combined with 4 x h150 reds up to this point until I made the switch to the 1000w HPS and added the 2 extra h350 purple. Not bad for 30 days huh?



 

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Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
PetFlora said:
^ Yes, but not hps is created equal. As long as the spectrum is ~ 3000- 5000, the vg results are at hand, assuming all other essential components are within reasonable tolerance. I set out to prove this in my current LED thread, but felt an obligation to BrandX, new breeder to add 650-660. However, I have clones, so they will get the 3000K treatment. Got them under 5000K now for rooting. Do you think they will root as well under a 3000K WW?

PLEASE EXCUSE THE JACK FONZ

UB, PLEASE ANSWER IN MY THREAD
Click to expand...
What's the question?
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
Fonzarelli said:
So let's just focus on the main colas for now since they are getting the majority of light and see how they compare to outdoor grown herb or herb grown under HPS alone.
Click to expand...
Done a lot of both. There are many stresses that outdoor plants are subjected to, and many times they turn out a lot better than indoors which don't have stress, except grower induced. My outdoor plants get beat up by the wind for example and other wild weather extremes like wild swings in temps. Reason for that as explained in scientific detail - http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda Chalker-Scott/Horticultural Myths_files/Myths/Thigmomorphogenesis.pdf I see little to no difference between bud production outdoor vs indoor, in spite of the junk science parroted around here that buds need light, which they don't. Both indoor and outdoor grown plants produce popcorn buds due to apical dominance and other plant process issues centered around chronological age - who gets most of the goodies (carbos, hormones, proteins, etc.) and who doesn't. If I had a dime for every theory and new this-and-that that the next new crop of noobs comes up with......

And let me tell you something about the graphs you're pulling from vendor sites. They may or not be accurate. About 15 years ago when I was really falling for this light spectrum stuff I called up the German firm Osram Sylvania as I was the only grower thinking about trying the new 600W because of its high efficiency. They had their regular SuperSun and some Enhanced HPS with claims of more blue resulting in better more faster growing plants and all the other hype that goes with it. When I got the spectral analysis graphs, guess what? They were the same. As a noob, I've studed this stuff until there was no tomorrow including the effects of photomorphogenesis. Even tried blue panels blah blah blah.

MH has plenty of red and a HPS has plenty of blue to take a plant from start to finish in a healthy and productive manner. Don't be a sucker bet by some hydro vendor or light manufacturer.

UB
 
Bumping Spheda

Bumping Spheda

Well-Known Member
Not sure, I pulled it from Google images ("light emitting plasma spectral" is what I typed in). I'm rather positive, however, that it corresponds to the Gavita Pro 300.

Some of the Philips CDM bulbs have REALLY nice looking spectral qualities, too, and should penetrate just as well as their HPS/MH counterparts.
 
Fonzarelli

Fonzarelli

Active Member
Uncle Ben said:
And let me tell you something about the graphs you're pulling from vendor sites. They may or not be accurate.
UB
Click to expand...
???????I'm not pulling graphs from vendor sites. I'm using my own spectrometer. And I know that vendor sites are NOT accurate because I've run my own SA and compared them. The graphs that they tend to put on packaging is glorified quite a bit.

There is VERY LITTLE red in MH lamps. I've run the SA on a large selection of MH from hortilux blue all the way to CMH and the largest 'RED' peak in a MH is around 590nm which is NOT even a red wavelength. For example, here's the SA that I TOOK from a Sunpulse MH 3000K,
sunpulse 3000k SA.jpg
I think you are having a bit of denial?

I just got through saying that all HPS have almost the exact same spectrum. Word for word.

Uncle Ben said:
About 15 years ago when I was really falling for this light spectrum stuff
Click to expand...
A LOT has changed since 15 years. LEDs that have appropriate growth spectra now exist not to mention a plethora of new technology.
 
Fonzarelli

Fonzarelli

Active Member
I just found something interesting from Phillips. As most of you already know they aren't making the Retro White CMH that you are used to, but have changed and are now making a new type that is 315w that runs on a special electric ballast. All of which are very expensive in comparison to the previous CMH for $50 and ran on the standard mag ballasts.

What I found interesting was how very similar the new CMH 3k is compared to the spectrum I made using the 1000w HPS and all the LEDs.

Here is the spectrum for the new Phillips CMH 3k 315w,
New CMH 315w.jpg
It's VERY similar to the spectrum I built with the 7 lights. It may be a good replacement for all of the above.
new cmh 2.jpg
Although these are not cheap. Coming in around $75 for the lamps and I don't wanna know what the cost is for the ballasts, not to mention you would need 4 of them to match the power watt for watt. It's unfortunate they don't make a 1000w version of this light, it would be real nice.
 
Fonzarelli

Fonzarelli

Active Member
As for manufacturer graph accuracy, here is the manufacturer's claims with their graph and the graph I took underneath it. They are almost exactly the same. What I notice is that the manufacturer fills in the tiny gaps between the wavelength peaks and that's the ONLY difference.


My graph of the same light,
 
P

PurpleBuz

Well-Known Member
Uncle Ben said:
Done a lot of both. There are many stresses that outdoor plants are subjected to, and many times they turn out a lot better than indoors which don't have stress, except grower induced. My outdoor plants get beat up by the wind for example and other wild weather extremes like wild swings in temps. Reason for that as explained in scientific detail - http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda%20Chalker-Scott/Horticultural%20Myths_files/Myths/Thigmomorphogenesis.pdf I see little to no difference between bud production outdoor vs indoor, in spite of the junk science parroted around here that buds need light, which they don't. Both indoor and outdoor grown plants produce popcorn buds due to apical dominance and other plant process issues centered around chronological age - who gets most of the goodies (carbos, hormones, proteins, etc.) and who doesn't. If I had a dime for every theory and new this-and-that that the next new crop of noobs comes up with......

And let me tell you something about the graphs you're pulling from vendor sites. They may or not be accurate. About 15 years ago when I was really falling for this light spectrum stuff I called up the German firm Osram Sylvania as I was the only grower thinking about trying the new 600W because of its high efficiency. They had their regular SuperSun and some Enhanced HPS with claims of more blue resulting in better more faster growing plants and all the other hype that goes with it. When I got the spectral analysis graphs, guess what? They were the same. As a noob, I've studed this stuff until there was no tomorrow including the effects of photomorphogenesis. Even tried blue panels blah blah blah.

MH has plenty of red and a HPS has plenty of blue to take a plant from start to finish in a healthy and productive manner. Don't be a sucker bet by some hydro vendor or light manufacturer.

UB
Click to expand...
I agree with you up to the point where you said HPS has plenty of blue. HPS has plenty of its narrow yellow\orange spectrum that allows it to make up for its inadequacies. Cannabis is a very adaptable plant and really just likes loads and loads of light. But to say hps has a lot of the blues really.
 
cannawizard

cannawizard

Well-Known Member
Fonzarelli said:
???????I'm not pulling graphs from vendor sites. I'm using my own spectrometer. And I know that vendor sites are NOT accurate because I've run my own SA and compared them. The graphs that they tend to put on packaging is glorified quite a bit.

There is VERY LITTLE red in MH lamps. I've run the SA on a large selection of MH from hortilux blue all the way to CMH and the largest 'RED' peak in a MH is around 590nm which is NOT even a red wavelength. For example, here's the SA that I TOOK from a Sunpulse MH 3000K,
View attachment 2592344
I think you are having a bit of denial?

I just got through saying that all HPS have almost the exact same spectrum. Word for word.


A LOT has changed since 15 years. LEDs that have appropriate growth spectra now exist not to mention a plethora of new technology.
Click to expand...
--Which spectrophotometer are you using to take readings with? And what software are you using to analyze the data? For inquiring minds~ :)
 
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