The far red thread

[Rocket Soul]

No it's 12,5 on 11,5 off and I'm already impressed by the difference. With 11,5:12,5 it would be probably another 3-5 days faster.

@Randomblame
What would be your recomendations on far red supplementation and cycle length for a 12 week strain, Amnesia Haze, using 2700k 80cri samsung led at high intensity, 800+ ppfd?
Goals: shortening the flower cycle and maintaining yield, or at least not losing more than we gain by shortening the cycle. For example, 5 yield loss is acceptable if the flower cycle is 10% faster.
Also, cannot do more light than 12/12 due total amps available

 

[Randomblame]

In a rush now, i need some time to carefully review.

Bottomline on the lightson far red, though, is you have to have proper red/deepred: far red ratio not to get signif stretch with far red on during lightson. If primary and/or supplemental lights contain enuff red/deepred, should not have much additional stretch, if any. Correct?

Yepp, correct!
I have not seen any additional stretch when using it past the 3rd week/end of normal stretch.

 

[Randomblame]

@Randomblame
What would be your recomendations on far red supplementation and cycle length for a 12 week strain, Amnesia Haze, using 2700k 80cri samsung led at high intensity, 800+ ppfd?
Goals: shortening the flower cycle and maintaining yield, or at least not losing more than we gain by shortening the cycle. For example, 5 yield loss is acceptable if the flower cycle is 10% faster.
Also, cannot do more light than 12/12 due total amps available

In the sience paper they used up to 90μMol/s/m² and measured an increased PS. The effect however was measurable even at lower intensities. I gave this time ~20μmol/s/m² in addition and will give them next time around 40μMol/s/m²(exchange the driver for one with 1050mA).
If I should make a recommendation I would say go for ~40-50μMol/s per squaremeter and use a driver which allows you to add more diodes in case you want to try it with even more far-red or with a mix of deep and far-red later.
To get ~40-50μMol/s you could use 6-10 top bin XP-Es in series or Osram Oslons and run them with 700 or 1050mA. A Meanwell LCM-40 is a driver with selectable drive current(350-1050mA perfect for secret diodes) and is usable from 2-100v and offers endless possibilities. It even offers 0-10v and PWM dimming which makes it compatible with the most reef controllers.
The driver has up to 42w with is enough to power more diodes if you want.

The shortening effect should be well feelable at 12/12 and the by a few percent optimized PS should largely compensate for losses in the end. As it looks like I get the same 50g/sft as usual but this time only from 240w LED, 40w UVA / B and 5w far-red (285w total) above a 2x 4'. That's only 42-45.000lx or 600-650μMol/s/m². I'll let how know how much it is when dry..

Here is a shot from day 48..



The strange yellowing is a genetic defect of the SLH, btw..

 

[Rocket Soul]

In the sience paper they used up to 90μMol/s/m² and measured an increased PS. The effect however was measurable even at lower intensities. I gave this time ~20μmol/s/m² in addition and will give them next time around 40μMol/s/m²(exchange the driver for one with 1050mA).
If I should make a recommendation I would say go for ~40-50μMol/s per squaremeter and use a driver which allows you to add more diodes in case you want to try it with even more far-red or with a mix of deep and far-red later.
To get ~40-50μMol/s you could use 6-10 top bin XP-Es in series or Osram Oslons and run them with 700 or 1050mA. A Meanwell LCM-40 is a driver with selectable drive current(350-1050mA perfect for secret diodes) and is usable from 2-100v and offers endless possibilities. It even offers 0-10v and PWM dimming which makes it compatible with the most reef controllers.
The driver has up to 42w with is enough to power more diodes if you want.

The shortening effect should be well feelable at 12/12 and the by a few percent optimized PS should largely compensate for losses in the end. As it looks like I get the same 50g/sft as usual but this time only from 240w LED, 40w UVA / B and 5w far-red (285w total) above a 2x 4'. That's only 42-45.000lx or 600-650μMol/s/m². I'll let how know how much it is when dry..

Here is a shot from day 48..

View attachment 4201393

The strange yellowing is a genetic defect of the SLH, btw..

Thank you, a pleasure to pick youre brain. Not sure i can get so many diodes on the fixture, lack of real estate to mount them. I like the driver recomendation, i could get everything at led-tech.de.

 

[Randomblame]

Thank you, a pleasure to pick youre brain. Not sure i can get so many diodes on the fixture, lack of real estate to mount them. I like the driver recomendation, i could get everything at led-tech.de.

3w diodes on star PCB's do not actually need much cooling. You could stick them on any free surfaces on the frame / housing. A far red diode at 700mA has only ~1.5w and produces only about 0.9w heat and the more you distribute them the better.

 

[SSGrower]

I agree with most of it. But white light espechially CRI90 and up has plenty of red and deepred and even CRI80 seems to have enough of these wavelength. So I don't think one is forced to use deep AND far-red diodes to optimize PS.

I know rapidleds emerson booster but I don't like the additional LDDs. You still need a CV driver to run the LDDs and this costs at least 3% efficiency. 97%LDD x 91% HLG-driver = 88,3% efficient conversion and the smaller MWs are only 89% efficient so its even less when you use only one or two bars. A simple CC layout is much easier to realize, cheaper, easier dimmable, more efficient, ...
It would not hurt when one adds more deep red especially the new Osram Square deep-reds are hella efficient(up to 3,91 f.... μMol//J) but low driven CRI90+ COB's would do the same AND contain a certain amount of far-red already and it costs only half that much compared to secret diodes.

My old Cree COB builds had a lot of added deep-red(2 lights á 150w 3500°k/CRI80 + 20w Osram Oslon hyperred) and the results were no better than with my old Vero29gen5 fixture. Probably it would have been better if I had glued 6 far-reds to it. The added far-red this run seems to have more effect although It's only an eighth of energy.
The CRI80/90 mix + UVB works much better for me but probably due to a much better efficiency not so much because of the sepectrum. But the additional blue and UV works against the stretch and they seems earlier focused on flowering. The SuperLemonHaze stopped stretch end of week 3 almost together with the Bubba's Gift in the same tent and look almost like skunk strain with a little bit of haze! Ht difference is maybe 2-4".

But to be honest, I've made a lot of changes recently compared to last year and they've all done their part to the current results. To which percentage is really hard to say. It's still a learning curve to create an optimized spectrum but the CRI80/90 mix + UV + far-red works at least better than CRI80 white mix with deep red.

I kinda wish monos on my amare were independent of each other and the cobs, also wish it were dimmable, you bring up a good point about a loss of efficiency with multiple drivers but it sounds like you think at least some of that is gained on the backend by a faster finish?

BTW Pretty impressed with the build quality, customer service and responsiveness of amare and victor gave me the thumbs up to hack into it so I can better control it with my arduino.

Edited to add unfortunately the amare web site is slow to be updated and dosent show the right info for the se300, victor said they are working on it but mine uses citi clu048s and 4 cree xpg/xpe, 660, 730, 6000K and 3500K

 

[churchhaze]

Yepp, correct!
I have not seen any additional stretch when using it past the 3rd week/end of normal stretch.

I've always suspected this to be the case, but never wanted to try myself. Thanks for the info.

 

[Randomblame]

I kinda wish monos on my amare were independent of each other and the cobs, also wish it were dimmable, you bring up a good point about a loss of efficiency with multiple drivers but it sounds like you think at least some of that is gained on the backend by a faster finish?

BTW Pretty impressed with the build quality, customer service and responsiveness of amare and victor gave me the thumbs up to hack into it so I can better control it with my arduino.

Edited to add unfortunately the amare web site is slow to be updated and dosent show the right info for the se300, victor said they are working on it but mine uses citi clu048s and 4 cree xpg/xpe, 660, 730, 6000K and 3500K

I mean the efficiency loss when you use a AC to DC CV driver to power another DC to DC CC driver to power the LED's. That's such a nonsense. It's much better to run the LEDs directly on dimmable CC drivers without additional DC to DC drivers. This costs at least 3% efficiency compared to direct driven LEDs and there is no way to get it back by a shorter flowering cycle.
Far red seems to increase the efficency of PS-II and this can compensate indeed a bit. The main benefit from it is, when I save a week every run I could do one run more per year and this really makes a difference.

I like the Amare fixtures if only they had no lenses and/or reflectors. You need so much distance with the lenses and the close diode spacings...
If you'd power the XPE's with a sepatate LCM-40, you could dimming them via your Arduino. You can choose PWM or 0-10v dimming( with extension card). The Citizen COBs could remain as they are ... But I don't know how much diodes are build in. One must measure or calculate the needed voltage. You could use the driver with 40v/1050mA or with up to 100v/350mA and in between there are steps with 525, 700mA too. Really flexible driver with 91% efficiency.

Datasheet is in my post above..

 

[SSGrower]

I mean the efficiency loss when you use a AC to DC CV driver to power another DC to DC CC driver to power the LED's. That's such a nonsense. It's much better to run the LEDs directly on dimmable CC drivers without additional DC to DC drivers. This costs at least 3% efficiency compared to direct driven LEDs and there is no way to get it back by a shorter flowering cycle.
Far red seems to increase the efficency of PS-II and this can compensate indeed a bit. The main benefit from it is, when I save a week every run I could do one run more per year and this really makes a difference.

I like the Amare fixtures if only they had no lenses and/or reflectors. You need so much distance with the lenses and the close diode spacings...
If you'd power the XPE's with a sepatate LCM-40, you could dimming them via your Arduino. You can choose PWM or 0-10v dimming( with extension card). The Citizen COBs could remain as they are ... But I don't know how much diodes are build in. One must measure or calculate the needed voltage. You could use the driver with 40v/1050mA or with up to 100v/350mA and in between there are steps with 525, 700mA too. Really flexible driver with 91% efficiency.

Datasheet is in my post above..

IIRC the arduino will only put out 9V and it is a stretch for it to do that, its powered by 5V so same effeciency issue you point out above, is the extension card you mention externally powered? I briefly looked at dimming options with the arduino, but really I dont know shit about programming and I use it in the most rudamentary ways.

Lenses are removable, but even without them its a hang 'em high light.

 

[Belko]

lcm-40 loses 2/3% efficiency at 350ma and 1050ma

 

[Randomblame]

IIRC the arduino will only put out 9V and it is a stretch for it to do that, its powered by 5V so same effeciency issue you point out above, is the extension card you mention externally powered? I briefly looked at dimming options with the arduino, but really I dont know shit about programming and I use it in the most rudamentary ways.

Lenses are removable, but even without them its a hang 'em high light.

Yeah, the LCM-40 is 10v pwm. Such 0-10v extension cards need at least a 10v power source but have you seen the thread about Kiasmos controller? It's based on a RasPi3 + pwm extension(no other powersupply) and works out of the box with 5v and 10v pwm.
The good thing is you can recreate your own controller and only download and install the Kiasmos ROM if you want or you can get as a kit with RasP3, a little case, sdcard and installed ROM. It:s all open source as far as I know.

We have a thread here in the LED area(search: KIASMOS) or you can view the threads below for more info. It's developed by a few smart guys from swiss but it's possible to use it all around the world. Very interesting. I will for sure get one and play with it.. Data security is under swiss laws which makes it more interesting for some of us...

https://ledgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=742

https://trello.com/b/Df2TfWFe/developping

 

[Randomblame]

lcm-40 loses 2/3% efficiency at 350ma and 1050ma

Hmm!
It's a fair bit but that because you need to make compromisses to offer such possibilities. The driver is already expensive(~40$ or so) and would cost even more with a more efficient circuit. But its still better as to use two drivers. A comparable HLG-40H costs ~30$ and reach 86,5-89,5% efficiency. Imagine an additional LDD and its between 83 and 86%...

Edit.
You could use an HLG-40H-48 or 54A or B to power a string of 3w diodes with less than 1Amp. It's safe and if you take the B version it's dimmable down to 6-10%.(with A version still down to 50%) But you need a minimum voltage of 24 respectively 27v because of the constant current area(24-48 and 27-54v).

 

[Belko]

HLG-40 48/54 looks fine ip65 / 67, 7 years warranty against 3 years for lcm-40.
HLG- is less flexible because of constant curent region but more efficient, is 88% efficiency at 50% load,
best LCM-40 curve is 85% at same load.

LCM-40 keep the lead at 500/600/700ma full load
91% efficiency 2/100v ~ 40w (2/65v Max at 700ma)

 

[Or_Gro]

In the sience paper they used up to 90μMol/s/m² and measured an increased PS. The effect however was measurable even at lower intensities. I gave this time ~20μmol/s/m² in addition and will give them next time around 40μMol/s/m²(exchange the driver for one with 1050mA).
If I should make a recommendation I would say go for ~40-50μMol/s per squaremeter and use a driver which allows you to add more diodes in case you want to try it with even more far-red or with a mix of deep and far-red later.
To get ~40-50μMol/s you could use 6-10 top bin XP-Es in series or Osram Oslons and run them with 700 or 1050mA. A Meanwell LCM-40 is a driver with selectable drive current(350-1050mA perfect for secret diodes) and is usable from 2-100v and offers endless possibilities. It even offers 0-10v and PWM dimming which makes it compatible with the most reef controllers.
The driver has up to 42w with is enough to power more diodes if you want.

The shortening effect should be well feelable at 12/12 and the by a few percent optimized PS should largely compensate for losses in the end. As it looks like I get the same 50g/sft as usual but this time only from 240w LED, 40w UVA / B and 5w far-red (285w total) above a 2x 4'. That's only 42-45.000lx or 600-650μMol/s/m². I'll let how know how much it is when dry..

Here is a shot from day 48..

View attachment 4201393

The strange yellowing is a genetic defect of the SLH, btw..

Assuming they’re yours, surprised per my comment on other thread, love the coloring on those colas!

 

[Or_Gro]

Assuming they’re yours, surprised per my comment on other thread, love the coloring on those colas!

RB, what’s the special sauce? Cool alpine air?

 

[Randomblame]

Nope! Bubba's Gift is purple strain from humboldt county seeds, 95% indika I would say and ber yield is more on the low side. But it's a nice smoke. She show purple buds from around week 5 and later when almost finished the leafes start to fade out and get purple and yellow colors. It just begun so I think maybe a few days more. I'll check trichs at the weekend. For know I've reduced white light intensity to ~400μMol/s/m² and ambient temps now stay around 22-25°C. I stopped the nutrients and they will get ph'ed water with a bit of horsetail extract(silica). Till now no bud rot

Macro shot from BG clone but you can not see the true colors like on the other pic above. High resolution dual sensor cam, pah!





And here a SLH cola..



Two SLH in 5gal. fabric pots in my separate 3ft² veg area. 120w strip/COB fixture 3000, 3500° und 1850°k + 11w UVB but no far-red and strickly 12/12..



Yeah, and forget the yellow spots and stripes and the curled leafes on the SLH. It's a genetic defect the SLH had from the beginning but it seems to have no effect on flowering. One half looked healthy the other side showed those damages and yellow stripes. Cuttings I cut from these side have this damages from top to the bottom(plant in the background) and the ones from the healthy side looked almost normal(like the girl in front).
Strange but funny..
They are 9 days in front, btw..
Were my last cuttings .. Have already 5 new short time moms in the pipeline... supersilverhaze, columbian gold, blue dream and two own "findlings". Bluedream is again the fastest one.


Germinated in 30h and is twice as big as the columbian gold I planted the same day.
Columbian gold..
View attachment 4202297

SSH is only a bit behind the BD..

 

[Or_Gro]

Nope! Bubba's Gift is purple strain from humboldt county seeds, 95% indika I would say and ber yield is more on the low side. But it's a nice smoke. She show purple buds from around week 5 and later when almost finished the leafes start to fade out and get purple and yellow colors. It just begun so I think maybe a few days more. I'll check trichs at the weekend. For know I've reduced white light intensity to ~400μMol/s/m² and ambient temps now stay around 22-25°C. I stopped the nutrients and they will get ph'ed water with a bit of horsetail extract(silica). Till now no bud rot

Macro shot from BG clone but you can not see the true colors like on the other pic above. High resolution dual sensor cam, pah!



View attachment 4202277

And here a SLH cola..

View attachment 4202281

Two SLH in 5gal. fabric pots in my separate 3ft² veg area. 120w strip/COB fixture 3000, 3500° und 1850°k + 11w UVB but no far-red and strickly 12/12..

View attachment 4202284

Yeah, and forget the yellow spots and stripes and the curled leafes on the SLH. It's a genetic defect the SLH had from the beginning but it seems to have no effect on flowering. One half looked healthy the other side showed those damages and yellow stripes. Cuttings I cut from these side have this damages from top to the bottom(plant in the background) and the ones from the healthy side looked almost normal(like the girl in front).
Strange but funny..
They are 9 days in front, btw..
Were my last cuttings .. Have already 5 new short time moms in the pipeline... supersilverhaze, columbian gold, blue dream and two own "findlings". Bluedream is again the fastest one.
View attachment 4202296

Germinated in 30h and is twice as big as the columbian gold I planted the same day.
Columbian gold..
View attachment 4202297

SSH is only a bit behind the BD..

View attachment 4202303

Just frickin beautiful, man! Those colas are ridiculous thick & solid, like little pineapples. And, the babies are perfectly healthy. Thanks for the pics.

 

[Randomblame]

Just frickin beautiful, man! Those colas are ridiculous thick & solid, like little pineapples. And, the banies are perfectly healthy. Thanks for the pics.

Thanks, mate!
Stature, size and stretch was more skunk like only the flowers show some haze touch. I really like the fact that you no longer have to worry about fluffy buds with LED's. Everything gets always nice and compact and end up as a heavy weight champion. HPS buds maybe look bigger but do not weight the same...
Pretty sure your SSH colas will look like fat child's legs at the end; at least 20-24" long and +12" circumference, lol!

 

[Or_Gro]

Thanks, mate!
Stature, size and stretch was more skunk like only the flowers show some haze touch. I really like the fact that you no longer have to worry about fluffy buds with LED's. Everything gets always nice and compact and end up as a heavy weight champions. HPS buds maybe look bigger but do not weight the same...
Pretty sure your SSH colas will look like fat child's legs at the end; at least 20-24" long and +12" circumference, lol!

Would be great. You’re helpful and generous.

I paricularly look forward to seeing your ssh.

 

[Belko]

I am curious to see how will behave this Colombian gold, stretch and flowering must be endless