Recycled Organic Living Soil (ROLS) and No Till Thread

[yankeegreen]

So even though this thread is about soil recycling, I figured I would show the process of soil building from scratch. I find "recycling" to be a silly term anyway, reamending makes more sense...regardless, the "recycling" process is simply adding amendments to a soil base - which also happens to be the second part of building a soil from scratch, so it all applies. Hope that makes sense.

Building a soil from scratch is much cheaper and much more rewarding than buying premixed soil. Also the quality is incomparable.

First off, we have to decide on a soil mix. There are countless mixes out there all claiming to be better than the next one...I prefer to go with a mix that I know is tried and true by a wise old coot. The mix is as follows

Base mix:

1/3 high quality EWC or compost (the quality of this humus source cannot be stressed enough. this is by far the most important aspect of the soil. use poor humus and this will be a nightmare)
1/3 sphagnum peat
1/3 aeration (pumice, rice hulls, lava rock, etc.)

Per cuft of base:

4-5 cups rock dust mix (4x glacial, 1x bentonite, 1x powdered oyster shell, 1x basalt dust) AFAIK the glacial and basalt are relatively interchangeable ..just use whatever is local (this goes for just about anything in ROLS...local is often best).

1/2 cup neem meal and/or karanja meal
1/2 cup crab shell meal
1/2 cup kelp meal


Thats it...


if you want to get fancy with it you can add a few other things such as:


Gypsum: I use 1/2cup per cuft...calcium and sulfur. good to add if you don't have the highest quality EWC.

Biochar: up to 10% of the mix, remember to "activate" it first by soaking in EWC/fish hydrolysate or something for the carbon to absorb so it doesn't rob your soil of nutrients. I use about 1/2 cup per cuft, but could easily double that amount.

Alfalfa meal: in the mix pictured I used 2 cups alfalfa meal for a 10cuft batch...you can use more if you want. it is very "hot", so be careful.

Fish meal: I had some leftover so I threw the last cup worth into the 10cuft batch


A note on humus: If you can't find any local worm farmers with castings, or folks with good compost, look for Bu's Blend Biodynamic by Malibu Compost. It is one of the best bagged products you will find, and has a great reputation with real gardeners. Bu's blend is what I used for this last batch...I would've used EWC but my local worm guy is out at the moment, and my bins are a month of two from being harvested

A note on sphagnum: peat comes in compressed bricks that are usually around 3 cuft. once you open and expand the bricks they are around 5 cuft of material, so keep that in mind when measuring. Also, often times the peat is very dry and tends to have hydrophobic tendencies. This can make saturating your soil a pain. To combat this, you should rehydrate the peat before mixing it with the other components. Once it is moist (not wet), you can proceed like normal.

Been following this thread since the beginning (thank you headtreep!) and am beginning to source materials for the initial batch of medium. Any recommendations for where I can source neem, neem cake and/or karanja meal? Found a few online sites like neemresource.com for both, but shipping costs more than the product! Any suggestions?

 

[GreenSanta]

my local nursery has organic neem cake, i thinks its a popular amendment for flowers

 

[Cann]

neemresource is worth it.

if you buy the DTE (down to earth) neem, you will have to use roughly 2x as much in order to achieve the same results. a.k.a. you'll end up spending the same amount of $$ per amount of azadirachtin and crew.

also neem is up there with humus as far as quality goes - you won't be able to achieve the best results w. your soil without using truly high quality neem.

BTW their karanja cake is awesome...has such a cool appearance compared to the neem. mocha latte comes to mind...smells much nicer than the neem too

neem is one of those few items that it is worth paying the shipping for...and also one of the only times in ROLS where local is almost never an option (unless you live in india ). bite the bullet....

 

[kushking42]

why is the down to earth neem seed meal inferior/weaker?

 

[headtreep]

I've used 3 types of neem meal/cake with same results personally but I love the oils from Ahimsa Organics (neemresource).

 

[yankeegreen]

neemresource is worth it.

if you buy the DTE (down to earth) neem, you will have to use roughly 2x as much in order to achieve the same results. a.k.a. you'll end up spending the same amount of $$ per amount of azadirachtin and crew.

also neem is up there with humus as far as quality goes - you won't be able to achieve the best results w. your soil without using truly high quality neem.

BTW their karanja cake is awesome...has such a cool appearance compared to the neem. mocha latte comes to mind...smells much nicer than the neem too

neem is one of those few items that it is worth paying the shipping for...and also one of the only times in ROLS where local is almost never an option (unless you live in india ). bite the bullet....

Thanks Cann. Not in India so point taken.

 

[yankeegreen]

I've used 3 types of neem meal/cake with same results personally but I love the oils from Ahimsa Organics (neemresource).

So from what I've read so far it sounds like the oils are extracted and the neem meal/cake is a byproduct. Are you saying you can use the oil in lace of the meal or am I misunderstanding. If so, what is the conversion rate...so to speak.

 

[headtreep]

So from what I've read so far it sounds like the oils are extracted and the neem meal/cake is a byproduct. Are you saying you can use the oil in lace of the meal or am I misunderstanding. If so, what is the conversion rate...so to speak.

I prefer using neemresource for their oils because they are very strong. The cakes/meal are all byproducts of the oil. I use the cakes/meal for tea and top dress or mix in soil. Oils I use on the leaves as foliair part of IPM regiment. If you have never used neem just start with the best and go right to neemresource.

 

[Cann]

why is the down to earth neem seed meal inferior/weaker?

don't know exactly why...but here is a cootz quote from a while back:

"Organic forms of these meals contain 3x the levels of the compounds that provide the pesticide and fungicide benefits than are found in the conventional versions from Dyna-Gro and Down-To-Earth, which is from Dyna-Gro under a distribution license, i.e. it's the same product.

This increase in these compounds also applies to the oils from these trees."


Based off that alone I decided to go with neemresource (ahimsa) over DTE. I'm sure cootz has done the research to know this is fact...

also the smell of neemresource neem cake is noticeably stronger/different than DTE stuff. same w/ the ahimsa oils..the neem oil is significantly stronger smelling than my dyna-gro neem oil..and 20x more difficult to emulsify LOL. it's worth it though....

 

[snowboarder396]

Hey cann what about the peaceful valley compost soil with humus. Think called pvfc ? Compared to bu's blend . And I may have brought this up before but I've read or heard that coco coir is better to use then peat , and also has less impact on environment I believe? Harvest peat is more taxing and harmful? Something I believe I've heard . What are your thoughts ? And keep up the good work man ! + rep

 

[Cann]

So from what I've read so far it sounds like the oils are extracted and the neem meal/cake is a byproduct. Are you saying you can use the oil in lace of the meal or am I misunderstanding. If so, what is the conversion rate...so to speak.

the cake is used in the soil, the oil is used as a foliar. you can mix the oil with water and apply it to your soil if you want..but cake is easier. neem is systemic so if you have neem in the soil in oil or cake form your plant will be still receive the benefits.

to produce neem oil, neem berries/seeds are crushed and the oil is separated. neem "cake" is the dried remnants of the crushed seeds. if I recall properly, the cake contains about 30-40% the active levels of azadirachtin, nimbin, et al. - the compounds we care about for their antifeeding (for insects) and antifungal properties. looking for the cootz quote where he breaks it down..but its a tough thing to find in google..too many results for "clackamascootz neem cake" lol.

hope that answers your question...i'm not sure...

 

[Cann]

Hey cann what about the peaceful valley compost soil with humus. Think called pvfc ? Compared to bu's blend . And I may have brought this up before but I've read or heard that coco coir is better to use then peat , and also has less impact on environment I believe? Harvest peat is more taxing and harmful? Something I believe I've heard . What are your thoughts ? And keep up the good work man ! + rep

no idea about the peaceful valley compost...never used it, but I doubt it's as good as bu's blend. are you near WA? because there is another brand of bagged compost I have been recommended called oly mountain fish compost. check it out if you're near the NW.

as far as coco vs. peat goes, I am an advocate of peat over coco.

most of the environmental articles written about peat don't show the full picture...basically there are millions of acres of sphagnum bogs across canada..roughly 270 million acres, and so far less than .02% (54,000 acres) have been harvested. peat mining is definitely damaging to the environment..but no more damaging than the carbon emissions/fossil fuels from shipping tons of coco to the US from sri lanka or wherever it has been harvested. also, peat has roughly twice the CEC of good coco...even more for bad coco. personally, i'd rather grow in the decaying remains of moss than in the shell of a nut lol. for all these reasons, I choose peat. I have yet to hear a compelling argument for coco...

 

[kushking42]

i thought you were referring to neem seed meal. is there a difference in meals for amending in the soil? are you saying dte makes an oil? are all the seed meals the same? also is the cake used to amend soil as well. or is amending just for the meal?

edit: ok i see you were talking about inferior neem oils i think. (i didnt know dte made an oil)i see you r basically saying that dyna gro and the dte arent very good oils. lol im sure all the neem meals for amending are pretty equal

 

[yankeegreen]

the cake is used in the soil, the oil is used as a foliar. you can mix the oil with water and apply it to your soil if you want..but cake is easier. neem is systemic so if you have neem in the soil in oil or cake form your plant will be still receive the benefits.

to produce neem oil, neem berries/seeds are crushed and the oil is separated. neem "cake" is the dried remnants of the crushed seeds. if I recall properly, the cake contains about 30-40% the active levels of azadirachtin, nimbin, et al. - the compounds we care about for their antifeeding (for insects) and antifungal properties. looking for the cootz quote where he breaks it down..but its a tough thing to find in google..too many results for "clackamascootz neem cake" lol.

hope that answers your question...i'm not sure...

...and then some I wasn't sure if headtrip was implying that the oils could be used as an alternative delivery medium. It is clear that was not his meaning, rathery he preferred the oils to be used as a foliar treatment. I have learned from your post that the oil can in fact be used to deliver their benefits via oil but the meal is the traditional treatment for soil. I am getting quite an education - thanks for your patience!

 

[headtreep]

Yeah neem and neem products are very versatile just like most of these natural organic products we use. I do recommend following manufactures recommendations or what available in this thread. For the record Karanja is the same as neem but some like to mix them with neem for diversity. Same type of tree in india. Neem cake/meal is also great for soil no only to keep pests away but for overall plant health. My secret to nice green lush plants I make neem tea sometimes too. When using the oil make sure you spray before lights off cycle or you risk burning.

yankeegreen You can use either or but use both for best results. Growing naturally successfully requires attention to detail, patience, observation, and most important diversity of amendments/tools. For example: I use Karanja, Neem, Lavendar, Peppermint oil foliars as part of my IPMs and even compost tea

 

[Cann]

its also really easy to burn with a neem cake topdress...just 1tsp burned a 4' tall sativa I have in a 4.6 gallon airpot.

KK - neem cake = neem meal, its all the same thing. the "spent" seed after it has been pressed. both the oil and the seed vary in potency after pressing...ahimsa (neem resource) stuff being superior to DTE (aka dyna gro) in all aspects...cake (meal) included. a.k.a. there is indeed a difference in the soil amendment product, and ahimsa is better (or at least everyone I trust uses it..cootz and gang). the price for their #50 bag is pretty reasonable..there are a few places in the PNW where you can buy their stuff locally and not have to pay for shipping.

headtreep good point about neem and karanja, they are basically interchangeable, sharing something like 99% of active ingredients. if I remember right, the only real difference is that neem contains nimbin and karanja it is b-nimbin or something like that.

here we go, found the cootz quote:

"Chemically (Secondary Metabolite) they are 99.999% exactly the same. There is one anti-feedent, Nimbin, which is a-Nimbin in Neem and b-Nimbin in Karanja but that's it according to Parker Group India which is the main exporter of neem & karanja products out of India specifically."

IMO karanja looks/smells better...not as pungent

 

[Kalyx]

Ahimsa Organics get my neem/karanja coin as well. Quality of garden inputs usually hinges on the quality/efficacy/corners cut in the processing/packing procedures. I have spent time talking to Ahimsa on the phone and there is love put into what they are doing.

How much of these meals is everyone using per cu ft.? Same or different amounts at reamends? I currently use 1/2 cup of each per cu ft. in the mix. I just top dressed an OG with some neem and other things, I hope she doesn't get nuked like the sativa. Og is 3.5 ft tall and 3 ft wide all around in a 10 gal so maybe she'll take it in stride. I hope so, I love my ogs.

Cann - You quickly discount coco b/c of lower CEC and I fully agree with you! However, for cultivating plants why not use giant shaved up seeds as a medium. Nearly all current plant forms start as seed and the seed contains the "magic" of embryonic compounds. (Think coconut water, although the coir is much more physically processed) Dont know why, but roots LOVE coco, have you ever started seeds in straight coco? Lets just say it works as good or better than anything else I've used. (Mostly veggie seeds, as the meds are mostly cloned genetics now). I also really like the physical properties of coco over time in my recycled mixes, it sinks no where near as much as peat after a run. Also, on the environmental angle: How long does a peat bog take to form, vs. a coconut grove. I honestly don't know but assume the coco media is MUCH more renewable than peat. IE the tree stays alive, vs the bulldozer tearing out a whole ancient bed/growing ecosystem on top of the ancient bed. Also I believe massive shipping boats get a bit better pounds of freight per gallon diesel fuel as opposed to dozers and tractor trailers full of heavy wet bogs. I like to have both peat and coco in my living soil.
Before I found this sweet thread I was using reused indoor mostly peat based soil and cutting it with about 30% coco and 20% aggregate and reamending before taking it out to the greenhouse to grow some plants I CAN eat for dinner. This will be my fourth year doing this in the pots and I went full no-till with my tomato trough last season and the vines did extremely well with about half as much inputs into them as the previous year. They may have yielded slightly lower but the no till was cheaper and WAY LESS labor intensive than my previous summers crop. Cherokee purples, green zebras, and green grapes, mmm I can taste summer around the corner. Didn't get to start it all from seed this year as I'm outta town for a month now and didn't want the med garden to take a hit as my grower in charge worried about my veggie patch too.

 

[headtreep]

Funny you mentioned coco as I was just on another board assisting someone who was using a peat base soil for 5 years and then reamended with coco only to come back to plants with all types of issues going. I used to be a coco grower, used to

I'd wouldn't use too much coco personally. I use coco shell as a mulch personally. Neem 1/2 cup per cuft.

 

[Rising Moon]

About coco.

From what I have read, the coco shell waste is now becoming a problem on the islands that produce coconuts for export.

Most of the left over shells were being burned, dumped and otherwise wasted, before people started compressing it and using as a medium.

I like coco BECAUSE it's a by product, and to be honest, have run side by sides, pest vs. coco and liked the results of coco better.

But nonetheless, I also use quite a bit of peat in my vegetable garden as a cheap, long term humus builder.

And because of the slight acidity, it works great as a blueberry mulch.

 

[Rrog]

Makes great carbon! But I use Canadian Sphagnum