Putting bubbles in your 'ponics

I

Illegal Smile

Guest
Cissy said:
2 questions of my own. This is my 1st grow and am now ready to transport to my flowering system.

#1. I built my system a bit larger and deeper than it needed to be (it's a homemade box). So it would take me 200+ gallons to fill it up completely. I simply cannot do that, especially if I am to use R/O water (thinking I will just use my tap water and hard water nutes though either way). SO, would it be OK to fill it only half way OR less? Can 50%+ of the roots dangle in the air only catching the mist from the bubbles? Will my yield suffer if so? Is it necessary or best to submerce all or most of the roots in water?

#2. Once I fill it up (if I had to), how long could I stretch it where I don't change out and clean my reservoir? IF I could get away with filling it up initially and then just adding a small amount daily, then it wouldnt be so bad. But if I had to drain and refill every single week or two, then it would be a real miserable pain in the ass (and probably not possible if I am filling it all the way up). Would adding H2O2 help prolong the time between cleanings/water changing? How long would be too long(the entire 8 weeks of flowering? 1 month? 3 weeks?)?

I am glad I changed my plans from using a water pump in an aeroponic or drip system, but the one issue I see with DWC is the need to use so much water. Unless of course you tell me that I don't need to fill it up as high as I am thinking I should.
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That's an interesting question and one I have never heard addressed. My personal take is that I would go to a different res for several reasons. First, I like changing the res weekly because it's the only way to know I'm getting a complete reset on the nute concentration. Second, you might be able to feed roots dangling a long distance down with bubble action but I think it would be tricky. If you succeeded it would be sort of like aeroponics. I think it would be an interesting experiment but how many failures would you be willing to accept to get it right?

If your res is a homemade box, couldn't you just cut away some along the top edge to make it more shallow? Or maybe rig it so the lid that held the netpots was recessed down to have the same effect? As I shop around for totes to use I have a similar problem. As they get larger in capacity they tend to do it with depth rather than more surface area on the top, I want the latter. I'm always looking for totes to be be a potential res where the water level works at a couple inches below where the bottom of the netpots would be.

Sorry if this isn't much help, I'm just rambling. Let us know what you decide to do and how it works!
 
Cissy

Cissy

Active Member
Illegal Smile said:
That's an interesting question and one I have never heard addressed. My personal take is that I would go to a different res for several reasons. First, I like changing the res weekly because it's the only way to know I'm getting a complete reset on the nute concentration. Second, you might be able to feed roots dangling a long distance down with bubble action but I think it would be tricky. If you succeeded it would be sort of like aeroponics. I think it would be an interesting experiment but how many failures would you be willing to accept to get it right?

If your res is a homemade box, couldn't you just cut away some along the top edge to make it more shallow? Or maybe rig it so the lid that held the netpots was recessed down to have the same effect? As I shop around for totes to use I have a similar problem. As they get larger in capacity they tend to do it with depth rather than more surface area on the top, I want the latter. I'm always looking for totes to be be a potential res where the water level works at a couple inches below where the bottom of the netpots would be.

Sorry if this isn't much help, I'm just rambling. Let us know what you decide to do and how it works!
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It would be impossible to make this one smaller and cost prohibitive to make a new one. For now at least. I spent a lot of money and time making both the box and the custom made top.

The box is 14" deep. Which is not all that deep. But it's 6x4' long and wide so it takes a ton of water to fill. What do you think the minimum depth should be?

Putting 200+ gallons of water is one thing, but getting the PPM up on that much water is going to cost a fortune.

Stuck between a rock and a hard place here. Think I am going to try and get away with filling it up only halfway. I'd like more feedback 1st before I do it though.

Why do you need a complete reset on the nute concentration? Couldn't I just slowly increase the PPM by adding more nutes to the replacement water? In other words, if it takes 5 gallons every other day to keep the water at a constant level, I could just adjust my nutes slowly over time in this way. My main question/concern is about the water going bad if left in too long. Wondering how long is too long.

thank you
 
JonnyBtreed

JonnyBtreed

Well-Known Member
Cissy said:
Why do you need a complete reset on the nute concentration? Couldn't I just slowly increase the PPM by adding more nutes to the replacement water? In other words, if it takes 5 gallons every other day to keep the water at a constant level, I could just adjust my nutes slowly over time in this way. My main question/concern is about the water going bad if left in too long. Wondering how long is too long.

thank you
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Mostly because The plants throughout their life need different compounds in different amounts. Every week you want to resupply them with a fresh supply of nutrients so they can pick and choose what they need out of that so maintain proficient growth. If you just add more nutrients to the old water they're getting too much of some compounds and not enough of others.

It would be like being given the same meal for a month. Steak potatoes and broccoli. Your supposes to have a certain amount of protein carbohydrate and vegetable every day. But say you don't like vegetables, and for a month your only eating steak and potatoes. You might put on a few pounds but its not going to kill you. Now say you had to eat off the same plate for a month. And you were eating your steak and potatoes which were being replaced everyday but not eating your broccoli.
that broccoli kept piling up on the corner of your plate until there's not enough room for steak or potatoes anymore. And the old broccoli is going bad, on the same plate as your food... You def don't want to eat old broccoli....

I know its a stretch of a analogy but... Im hungry. . . and.. hope you get it...
 
I

Illegal Smile

Guest
Cissy said:
It would be impossible to make this one smaller and cost prohibitive to make a new one. For now at least. I spent a lot of money and time making both the box and the custom made top.

The box is 14" deep. Which is not all that deep. But it's 6x4' long and wide so it takes a ton of water to fill. What do you think the minimum depth should be?

Putting 200+ gallons of water is one thing, but getting the PPM up on that much water is going to cost a fortune.

Stuck between a rock and a hard place here. Think I am going to try and get away with filling it up only halfway. I'd like more feedback 1st before I do it though.

Why do you need a complete reset on the nute concentration? Couldn't I just slowly increase the PPM by adding more nutes to the replacement water? In other words, if it takes 5 gallons every other day to keep the water at a constant level, I could just adjust my nutes slowly over time in this way. My main question/concern is about the water going bad if left in too long. Wondering how long is too long.

thank you
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I'm curious - how many plants were you planning to grow with 6x4ft of space? were you going to grow them to full size? It sounds like a very very large operation and with a large operation, a lot of water and nutes and work "is" involved, and worth it if you get the yield from that many plants.
 
Cissy

Cissy

Active Member
Awesome analogy. Thank you!

I have never grown anything, so I think I went a bit overboard with it. Its for me and a few friends (and friends of friends), but didn't mean to go "commercial" with it. Hoping to pay for it and get myself a free supply, thats my goal.

Doing a SOG though, at least that is the plan. Though I will be giving them a short veg period, not putting them in right away once they root. But the idea is still the same. lots of small plants. a little more than 1 per sq ft. (40 in the 24 sq ft space to be exact)

I've heard so many estimates on yield that i have no idea what this will give me. having more than i need is better than not having enough, but no need to go overboard either(which i may have done). basically, despite alll my reading, i am virtually clueless as to what yield i can expect from 40 plants in a sog. figured id just have to see for myself
 
Cissy

Cissy

Active Member
Main thing I need to know now is how deep SHOULD it be? I could remake a top that can be recessed into the box, but before doing so I would need to know what the best height would be? It's at 14" deep now. 10"? 8"? What would be deep enough? thx
 
goofygolfer

goofygolfer

Well-Known Member
tom__420 said:
That is why I tell people not to mess with the water pump
I would rather grow DWC and have colder water temps than bubbleponics with warm water temps
The water pump is absolutely unnecessary
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wish i had found this out eariler lol could have saved some cash or at least spent it on something else. i put the pumps in and in no time at all had to take it out root all tangled in it and the tubes. straight dwc is the way to go for me
 
TheConstantGardner

TheConstantGardner

Well-Known Member
I wish I had a picture of the reservoir.

I want to recommend channels between the grow sites that subtract from the amount of water it would take to fill the tub. A spacer, if you will, but still allow it all to be connected. 14" is a good depth.
 
goofygolfer

goofygolfer

Well-Known Member
Cissy said:
Main thing I need to know now is how deep SHOULD it be? I could remake a top that can be recessed into the box, but before doing so I would need to know what the best height would be? It's at 14" deep now. 10"? 8"? What would be deep enough? thx
Click to expand...
i dont mean to but in , but if you could make the lid recessed , make it adjustable so that as you girls get bigger and using more water you can raise it higher . thus allowing you ultimate virsitilaty .close to bottom say 6 " or so at the beginning you would not use so much nutes . that was the problem i had at first.
 
Cissy

Cissy

Active Member
TheConstantGardner said:
I wish I had a picture of the reservoir.

I want to recommend channels between the grow sites that subtract from the amount of water it would take to fill the tub. A spacer, if you will, but still allow it all to be connected. 14" is a good depth.
Click to expand...

Putting channels wouldnt be an option. I have a pond liner in the box and I am not sure what I could use as a divider that wouldnt rot or rust.

Illegal Smile.. Sorry about hijacking your thread here, but happy to see that I helped a few people with finding that 950gph pump. Let me tell you, it works great!

Even better than the pump are the 4 foot long air tubes. I have tried everything and nothing comes close to working as good as these things. Not even the $30 a pop micro air diffusers (it would take 4 of these to match just one of the 4' air tubes). $6.95 for 4 feet of tiny air bubbles that cover a larger area than $100 worth of the more expensive air diffusers.

Here's a couple pics. This is just one pump and 10 of the 4' air stones/tubes. has the entire 6'x4' area bubbling like crazy.

You can also see how I have the rubber pond liner attached to the box. I originally tried to water proof the melamine, but the resin i used failed.. So had to use a pond liner.

 

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Cissy

Cissy

Active Member
goofygolfer said:
i dont mean to but in , but if you could make the lid recessed , make it adjustable so that as you girls get bigger and using more water you can raise it higher . thus allowing you ultimate virsitilaty .close to bottom say 6 " or so at the beginning you would not use so much nutes . that was the problem i had at first.
Click to expand...

That would be tough, but it would certainly save me time, money, nutes, and water in the long run. I could probably do a 6" recessed top and then one that sits on the top, but there wouldn't be any in between.

thank you
 
I

Illegal Smile

Guest
Here's my advice: you don't have to discard your creation, just stow it for awhile. get yourself an 8 or 10 gallon tote and rig that up for about 4 plants. Do a grow that way and you'll learn a lot. Then you can come back to the big one armed with a lot of valuable experience.
 
M

Mr.Bob Saget

Active Member
Well I got the Sunleaves SDA-540, and I don't know what to say besides OMG. Well this air pump is when you want to take it to the next level, I would not recommend this to anyone that is looking for a stealth type setup.

Previous to this (might need to go back to it) I was using your Big Box dual outlet Tetra (Sp) whisper 60 gallon air pump, in a 6 gallon tank with two ten inch air stones, practically your standard. I went from having good amount of bubbles, enough where they would jump off the top of the water, to have almost the same amount of bubble jumping, but with a small current or swirl in the water. There is almost no standing still water, it seems as if it really mixed up the nutrient solids (organic) that had fell to the bottom. The roots are moving about in the water. I would have to say I'm very impressed by the difference, it has been setup for 2 hours, and I think the plants are already showing appreciation to the new addition.

So on the down side, and this is where I'm asking for some help, I need to make this pump quieter. It has been running for a few hours, and is starting to warm up to what I would think is operational temp. I can feel the heat sinks giving off a little heat on the cooling fins, this thing is really a compressor more than I would call it a pump. The air outlet tubing is a bit warm to the touch, but it doesn't seem to be warming the tank, tank is still holding good a 65.8 degrees. What I do like, and what i will need to utilize to make this compressor quieter, on the air input of the compressor there is a barbed fitting so you can get the supply air from a remote location, so you could get cold air if it was available or what not. What I noticed that about 50% or the noise from the machine is coming from the air getting sucked in, so attaching a hose and running it away from the the compressor location seems to be limiting the amount of noise in that area, it also seems the hose acts as a small muffler. So do describe better, the compressor sounds just like that, a 60 hz motor, when I first pluged it in I thought it sounded like my gargae air compressor, but mini. I noticed that once I had all the air lines hooked up (it comes with a six outlet manifold) and the remote air inlet tube, it brought the noise down. The sencond place I noticed noise was from the reservoir. I couldn't believe it, the two 10'' air stones where emitted air noise there was so much pressure, there is nothing that I think I can do about this, this is going to be a price to pay for the amount of air.

Here is my idea, I'm thinking about going to pick up some 1/2 or 3/4 foam board insulation (I just don't want to have to buy a 4x8 sheet), and line the inside of a small MDF box, maybe twice the size of the compressor. I would allow for a hole for the intake hose, and the exiting air house, and power cord. Not sure if I should seal it tight, or leave gaps around the holes. I don't know if it will be come to hot in a small area, or if it will be efficient with the amount of cooling fins, I cant see it heating a large Cubic inch box.

I need some input on making this thing quieter.
http://www.sunleaves.com/detail.asp?sku=SDA540
 
I

Illegal Smile

Guest
Mr.Bob Saget said:
Well I got the Sunleaves SDA-540, and I don't know what to say besides OMG. Well this air pump is when you want to take it to the next level, I would not recommend this to anyone that is looking for a stealth type setup.

Previous to this (might need to go back to it) I was using your Big Box dual outlet Tetra (Sp) whisper 60 gallon air pump, in a 6 gallon tank with two ten inch air stones, practically your standard. I went from having good amount of bubbles, enough where they would jump off the top of the water, to have almost the same amount of bubble jumping, but with a small current or swirl in the water. There is almost no standing still water, it seems as if it really mixed up the nutrient solids (organic) that had fell to the bottom. The roots are moving about in the water. I would have to say I'm very impressed by the difference, it has been setup for 2 hours, and I think the plants are already showing appreciation to the new addition.

So on the down side, and this is where I'm asking for some help, I need to make this pump quieter. It has been running for a few hours, and is starting to warm up to what I would think is operational temp. I can feel the heat sinks giving off a little heat on the cooling fins, this thing is really a compressor more than I would call it a pump. The air outlet tubing is a bit warm to the touch, but it doesn't seem to be warming the tank, tank is still holding good a 65.8 degrees. What I do like, and what i will need to utilize to make this compressor quieter, on the air input of the compressor there is a barbed fitting so you can get the supply air from a remote location, so you could get cold air if it was available or what not. What I noticed that about 50% or the noise from the machine is coming from the air getting sucked in, so attaching a hose and running it away from the the compressor location seems to be limiting the amount of noise in that area, it also seems the hose acts as a small muffler. So do describe better, the compressor sounds just like that, a 60 hz motor, when I first pluged it in I thought it sounded like my gargae air compressor, but mini. I noticed that once I had all the air lines hooked up (it comes with a six outlet manifold) and the remote air inlet tube, it brought the noise down. The sencond place I noticed noise was from the reservoir. I couldn't believe it, the two 10'' air stones where emitted air noise there was so much pressure, there is nothing that I think I can do about this, this is going to be a price to pay for the amount of air.

Here is my idea, I'm thinking about going to pick up some 1/2 or 3/4 foam board insulation (I just don't want to have to buy a 4x8 sheet), and line the inside of a small MDF box, maybe twice the size of the compressor. I would allow for a hole for the intake hose, and the exiting air house, and power cord. Not sure if I should seal it tight, or leave gaps around the holes. I don't know if it will be come to hot in a small area, or if it will be efficient with the amount of cooling fins, I cant see it heating a large Cubic inch box.

I need some input on making this thing quieter.
http://www.sunleaves.com/detail.asp?sku=SDA540
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Big pumps are noisey, no way around it. Sounds like you have some good ideas for dampening it. Another is to suspend it from a bungee cord. Also, I have a small fan directly on mine at all times.
 
M

Mr.Bob Saget

Active Member
Well after about 2 hours of playing with that air pump, and by playing I mean taking it apart 5 times, I'm looking for my lost evening.

After typing the previous post, I went to inspect the situation with the pump, and it had a crazy bad rattle to it..I think I found the issue..we'll see...I stretched out the spring on the piston. It might not be as loud as I thought, its just louder than the last one.

I don't think a bungee would help, it isn't vibration noise, it is just the compressor working the air. It needs to be in a box of some sort. Has anyone seen someone make a box around a fan, or an air pump before?
 
CLOSETGROWTH

CLOSETGROWTH

Well-Known Member
TheConstantGardner said:
I run two of these:


http://htgsupply.com/viewproduct.asp?productID=50490

in a 100+ gallon DWC (3x35G Res) and my water is rolling with bubbles. The pump is a bit pricey, but it is relatively quiet and easy to rebuild (haven't had to in almost 3 years of constant use).

Wetting the cubes with the mist from the bubbles breaking the surface works wonderfully. I raise my water level until the mist just wets the lid of my res. My baskets drop down 3" beyond that point and pick up the perfect amount of moisture. Always successful, never a problem.

+rep
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I just bought one of those myself.. Freakin Rocks!!!! Ill be using it with a tee running 8 dwc Buckets. I hooked it up 10 minutes ago to one of my 3 1/2 gallon buckets, its very quiet and it certainly does the job compared to the twin diaphragm pump I got from Walmart for 11 bucks.. 100%more output.. at least. Glad to hear that there reliable. :mrgreen:
 
M

Mr.Bob Saget

Active Member
So after doing some testing I have found that a good majority (about 50%) of my noise is coming from the reservoirs now, not so much the pump/compressor. There is some serious air movement with this large of compressor.
 
D

donkey.420

Well-Known Member
how high should i keep the water level of a 5 gallon bucket once i have a root ball inside the bucket? does it matter???
 
I

Illegal Smile

Guest
donkey.420 said:
how high should i keep the water level of a 5 gallon bucket once i have a root ball inside the bucket? does it matter???
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Once you have roots well into the water, the water level isn't as much concern as before. But, the more water the more rootspace. Also, I try to keep water level steady because it is a major factor in nutrient concentration. I change the res weekly and just add plain ro water midweek to keep level up.
 
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