Pruning - When do you take all the leaves off?

Dively,

I respect your opinion on this matter. I have even practiced it on my current grow which has entered it's 4th week of 12/12 and I'm liking the results already. That being said, I kind of wish the personal tone you sometimes take with the older members that aren't willing to accept your ideas be toned down. You have made a good argument, showed pictures, results, yields, etc. In my mind, you won the debate hands down. Please don't gloat or get personal and ruin it.

Nice work and thanks for sharing your pruning methods. Those that question the practice can ask any horticulturist about pruning. It's done for the plant's benefit.

Pruning screwed me this harvest on OG Kush bad.. I should have known better too because if anything ever happens my OG Kush strain takes at least 1 week to come out of shock, even in aero which is usually 1 day! I think I have some advice to offer, never prune a really shocky strain during flower.

Serapis said:

Dively,

I respect your opinion on this matter. I have even practiced it on my current grow which has entered it's 4th week of 12/12 and I'm liking the results already. That being said, I kind of wish the personal tone you sometimes take with the older members that aren't willing to accept your ideas be toned down. You have made a good argument, showed pictures, results, yields, etc. In my mind, you won the debate hands down. Please don't gloat or get personal and ruin it.

Nice work and thanks for sharing your pruning methods. Those that question the practice can ask any horticulturist about pruning. It's done for the plant's benefit.

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Sorry , it just gets sooo frustrating when they talk in circles and give no credit whatsoever to consistent results. That and be so condescending to others like myself like we have no clue yet somehow are yielding much more then themselves. They act like they invented the wheel and we are idiots for doing something else that works. The way they skirt the points being made it almost seems trollish.
Edited my last post, frustration got the better of me.... =(

Serapis said:

Those that question the practice can ask any horticulturist about pruning. It's done for the plant's benefit.

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No it's not. That's like saying you would benefit if I removed your left leg or both of your nuts, the latter which I'm about to do. You need to learn what makes a plant tick and why commercial growers do what they do "when they do it".

Pruning is done for the benefit of the gardener, it's called "training". Most times it will set the plant back. For example, you should not prune any branches off a newly planted tree for about 2 years. After two years of leaving the trunk "trashy", then you can prune (train) it for a better shape - so you can mow under it, get a nicer profile, etc. A tree left "trashy" for a couple of years will have a larger girth, will be stronger, taller, and have a better root system than one that was pruned. Trust me on this one, I learned the hard way.

I remove leaves from the east side of my grapevines' fruiting zone but that's only for improving fruit/wine quality. A chemical change occurs within grapes or IOW words the "herbaceous" qualities are limited and more anthocyaninis are produced. I fully understand that if I remove too many leaves then it has negative effects of delaying crop ripening or in some cases not at all. It's all about The Balance. You prune internal branches of fruiting trees like apples or peaches but only to open up the canopy to air and light and drop the fruiting zone down for easier access by the picker.

If your act of pruning induces foliar output from dormant cannabis buds (those located in the axils of the petiole/trunk), then that's another issue. If indeed you induce foliar output or replacement, then you're OK except for the fact that you've lost some time. If you don't get new foliar output, then you WILL lose bud production compared to letting the plant grow naturally.

UB

Uncle Ben said:

I need to learn what makes a plant tick and why commercial growers do what they do "when they do it".






UB

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Well put UB =)


Not too many commercial growers grow under HID lights. In fact pretty much evreything you have quoted does not factor growing under HID lighting which is absolutely key here. The few advanced growers I know also remove leaves at week 3 f bloom. For shits and giggles I asked a guy that works at a nursery near me . He has a major in botany and actually manufactures his own line of tea that all the hydro shops use out here. He completely agrees with me that removing leaves under HID lighting with a SOG grow not only helps but is completely necessary unless your goal is to grow leaf.

Open your eyes it will set you free.

Maybe this is silly to ask:

I have one lady 17 days into flower. Her canopy is about 6-8" thick. Can I remove everything below that? I was going to try to take a few flowering clones as well. Its armageddon strain from fantaseeds. Ph 5.8 at 996ppm at the moment in a bb using lucas formula.

Not tryin to jack, I swear just tryin to attain some info other could use as well.

loserface said:

Maybe this is silly to ask:

I have one lady 17 days into flower. Her canopy is about 6-8" thick. Can I remove everything below that? I was going to try to take a few flowering clones as well. Its armageddon strain from fantaseeds. Ph 5.8 at 996ppm at the moment in a bb using lucas formula.

Not tryin to jack, I swear just tryin to attain some info other could use as well.

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Yes you sure can. That is what Srcog and lollipop growers do.

top thread done correctly and at 3 weeks into flower which was stated way back i forgot who posted it but is correct by cutting fan leaves and the popcorn at the bottom does increase yields dramaticly i found with certain strains.
i grow cheese uk cheese from clone and always grow 20 at a time i ve done it to death and cut fan leaves left them on numbrous times i ve done side by side experiments everything you can imagine to do with 1 strain and by removing the bottom third of the plant and nearly all fan leaves increases my yields by 600 grams before i tried doing it i averaged 70 oz but average 85 to 90 oz a time under 3x 600watt hps throughout my experimenting cutting them
happy growing
ps those that dont like change leave em to it i say they will get left behind like the rest of em that are stuck in there ways and wont go no were far without trying to experiment and b4 any1 says it my sxxx is top draw believe you wont get a 0z for less than £200 and is gone in 1 hit happy days happy days

The focus should be on photoysnthesis which drives cell division/elongation. The ONLY way to determine what material should be removed, if any, is to do a CO2 processing test or find out what the actual carbo production is on various plant parts using HID or outside lighting. Light is light, photons are photons. I have spoken to experts in the field of grape growing at Texas Tech who do have very expensive and sophisticated equipment that measures photosynthetic efficiency and such. Their "feelings" are not based on what they want or expect to see but rather on scientifically derived data.

Having said that the question is:

1. Is an old but large fan leaf still as productive at week 12 as it was when first mature?

My response - if it's green and healthy (no disease or insect damage), leave it alone. If the newer but much smaller leaves are in better health and CAN BE SHOWN SCIENTIFICALLY that they indeed collect more photons and have a higher CO2 processing rate than the older fan leaves, then it might be beneficial to yank fan leaves.

I'll err on the side of natural as opposed to being drawn into forum opinion, theories, forum images, etc. My avatar shows a solid cola with solid lower bud development and ALL fan leaves were left intact. Thank God my plants can't read cannabis forums.

I have seen folks recommend pulling fan leaves off but when it comes to the nut cutting they're covering up - they just don't have what it takes nor the ability to retain them. Folks will screw up their plants with stuff like Bloom foods, rocket fuels and such, induce fans leave necrosis from the stress, get some bud and exclaim, "see, removing fan leaves does work for me!"

The rule of thumb for me is "if it's green, it's producing." And yes, my goal is to grow leaf, lots of them. If you guys would focus on leaf and root system production/maintenance and STOP worrying about bud production, you might get somewhere.

Think outside of the box,
UB
.

I'm new here and certainly didnt real all the posts on this subject,I only have about 20 years more to live lol.One thing I can say from experience,getting direct light to the flowers can be detrimental to their development.And removing fan leaves so more light can pebetrate the flowers is akin to a double fuckup.You buds dont develop when they are saturated in light,they develop when the fan leaves are saturated in light.If you pull your fans and illuminate your flowers,you better do some real experiments like I did

No one is saying leaves arent an important part of of growing MJ. There is no argument there. They are needed and are important just as light is. What you and a few others need to realize is that in an indoor grow under HID lighting that is stationary certain circumstances you may have to sacrifice one for the other to get maximum yields on your grow. You do this for the greater good of bud production. Five big plants under one light it wont make so much difference . 64 plants under one light and it becomes essential unless you really only want to grow leaf and settle for half the yield. Everyone grows differently and a huge yield isnt as important to some as others. You grow nice healthy plants and thats how you choose to grow. Others choose to grow to get the most final product they can for their given space.

Its funny you say think outside the box UB when you are the one not willing to do so at all. I could fit about 12 or more colas just as large or larger as that one in the pictured same space with a SOG and removing the leaves and yield at least 2-3 times more in that space using these techniques. Don't think too many in here are interested in what grape growers say either but I could be wrong. Stop worrying about bud production ? If growing leaf as you stated above really is your goal then I guess you win and we can end the discussion . You are getting the leaf you want and I am getting the bud I want. Sounds like you just put the final nail in your coffin on this debate IMO =)

It appears that some people do not understand what Uncle Ben says. The reason someone does not have to worry about bud production is if you grow your plants the way they evolved to grow, while providing them the best possible conditions/environment, the best bud production possible will be the result. It is sort of an 'if you build it, they will come' thing. If you plants the way they evolved to grow and give them the best possible growing conditions/environment the result will be the best bud production possible.

While it is not the best analogy it might still make sense too some people. If you have a fast car and you want it to go faster and decide to reduce the weight so you have a better power to weight ratio it would not be beneficial to drain your gas tank to reduce the total weight. The car would weigh less but lacking fuel it will not only not be faster, it won't move at all.

Most light that strikes leaves passes through to then strike lower leaves, and buds too. 85% of light that strikes a leaf passes through. Chlorophyll reflects green light rays, they do not pass through leaves. The human eye is most sensitive to the green light spectrum. With the green light spectrum filtered out the lower portions of plants appear to the human eye to be heavily shaded, that little light is penetrating to the lower portion of plants. But plants do not 'see' light the same way that the human eye does. The light that the human eye does not see still exists at lower levels of plants and it is those spectrum light rays that plants use, that they 'see,' that they need. People are fooled by what they see and what they do not see and they wrongly assume that plants only receive what they see with their eyes when looking at their plants.

If someone's plants are not receiving enough light to their lower portions the problem is inadequate lighting, not too many leaves, and the solution to inadequate lighting is not removing leaves that are very important, far more important than many believe them to be. The solution is to improve lighting.

Many growers refuse to accept facts when the factual examples used are about plants other than cannabis plants. Due to cannabis being illegal there is not a great deal of research about normal common everyday plant functions performed on cannabis plants but no one should ever think that what applies to leaves found on grape vines or oak trees or tomato plants does not equally apply to cannabis plants.

Cannabis plants do not exist outside the realm of botanical science. They are not totally unique plants with totally different functions just because they produce THC.

A large percentage of growers, even many very good growers, mainly have beliefs that they rely on for growing but few know all that many proven facts to rely on for growing. Because cannabis plants are rough tough resilient plants that will take a lot of abuse and still grow well, many growers will believe what they do is the best way to do things. What they do not realize is if they did things correctly their results would be even better.

Growers will experiment with different growing beliefs and one will seem to work better than another and because of that they will believe they found a better, or the best, way to grow. They think about their different attempts and the results of each and connect the wrong dots, they attribute their better results to the wrong things. They fail to see things that do not stand out when looking at plants and weighing a crop for being the true cause for lesser or better results in one, or some grows, and later they give credit for what can be better final results to things that are not the true reason. Then they tell other growers how it is done and say things like 'in my experience' or 'my experience has taught me' or 'when I tried this the results were better than when I tried that.'

Far too often when someone says things like 'in my experience' or 'my experience has taught me' or 'when I tried this the results were better than when I tried that' they are perpetuating myths rather than sharing helpful facts because what they attribute their perceived success to was not actually due to what they believe it too be. When others read or hear 'in my experience' or 'my experience has taught me' or 'when I tried this the results were better than when I tried that' they assume that is factual proof for the belief being shared.

Growers need to put less stock in mythical beliefs and instead accept proven facts for what they are, that being scientifically proven facts. No matter how many times someone repeats things like 'in my experience' or 'my experience has taught me' or 'when I tried this the results were better than when I tried that' it will never transform beliefs into scientifically proven facts and no matter how many times someone repeats things like 'in my experience' or 'my experience has taught me' or 'when I tried this the results were better than when I tried that' it will never transform scientifically proven facts into nothing more than beliefs or preferences.

Facts are facts and beliefs are beliefs and never the twain shall meet.

Sounds good on paper Brick Top but doesnt hold up in the real world of maximum yielding MJ plants indoors. So we should have more light then a 1000 watt HPS on a 4X4 tray ? That is redicules. Ony way you are getting light to the bottom of plants in a tight SOG like this is if you put lights on the tray pointing upwards which is silly. Why would I or anyone need more light when they can grow over 3 lbs a tray every 8 weeks on a single bulb ? 75% penetrates to the next leaves and then it has to go through more layers of leaves, by the time you get midway you have lost almost all your usable light not to mention the bottom. I have 100 gallon 10 foot tall pants outdoors and ALL the lower and inner branches have almost no bud on them at all. The two of you talk in circles with no proof or real world results to present anyone .

I never said my experience, I stated facts about my grow. I state very clearly what the side by side controlled results were, same strains off the same mother, same size, same lighting, same air same nutes same everything. Same results EVERY single time. That is a controlled experiment. The two of you accept certain things to be facts that simply are not. You can not and will not yield as well with 64 plants per SQ foot if you dont remove leaves it is that simple. you also will have a VERY VERY hard time yielding as well as this type of grow even with SCROG methods. Consistent controlled results are results no matter how you may try to change this. The whole point of posting about this is to help people grow better no other reason at all. Trying to help fellow growers. You two just try to scare people away from tying new things when it appears you havent tried the very things you argue against. I have. I have grown every indoor method there is just about for five years and many more outdoors. You like many people read something and interpret it a certain way and accept it as fact under any and all circumstances hence limiting your abilities as a grower. Have the decency not to limit others with your somewhat short sighted beliefs.

Also what other plants are grown to focus on a bud like MJ ? Not flowers but getting the biggest buds possible indoors under HID lighting in a tight space ? Anything ? Might explain it right there.

John Stevens said:

I've done a few grows before and I'm currently on Day 30 Flower. I always leave every fan leaf the plant grows and tuck it underneath the canopy to ensure it doesnt cover the budsite as you can see in the picture.

In the second picture it shows someone whos on day 48 flowering, has took all the fan leaves off and its still going well (he is using cfls)

When do you take fan leaves off and why do they do it?

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I think too many people forgot what this thread was about, so here it is again. You'll see this question is being posed SPECIFICALLY in regards to a photo of a trimmed plant being grown under a CFL.

Brick Top said:

Many growers refuse to accept facts when the factual examples used are about plants other than cannabis plants. Due to cannabis being illegal there is not a great deal of research about normal common everyday plant functions performed on cannabis plants but no one should ever think that what applies to leaves found on grape vines or oak trees or tomato plants does not equally apply to cannabis plants.

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Being largely illegal and there being a lack available research is exactly why you have to be very vigilant in the things you treat as cardinal rules of growing. I believe that with enough precision in measuring all of the variables involved, there is essentially a sliding scale in the utility of any single variable in relation to all of the other variables.


Being largely illegal wouldn't you also then concede that there is probably not much research funding for producing the most bud with CFLs like the original question is referring to? The intensity of the light available to those leaves is important because an unproductive leaf requires energy to maintain. Attempting to completely ignore the most limiting factor (LUX from the CFLs) in the specific example is in no way scientific.

dlively11 said:

Its funny you say think outside the box UB when you are the one not willing to do so at all.

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I've been growing all kinds of plant material for 40 + years and that includes cannabis back in the 70's. Trust me, I've about "done it all".

Don't think too many in here are interested in what grape growers say either but I could be wrong.

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Since when were you appointed the forum spokesman? This is the forum politicking and clique crap I was talking about. When it comes to cannabis forums, popular school of thought is usually pretty screwed up...creepy in fact.

The reason why I post about other plant material and their responses is to make a point about plant responses. If you don't get it, that's not my problem.

Stop worrying about bud production ? If growing leaf as you stated above really is your goal then I guess you win and we can end the discussion .

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Aint competing, just trying to teach you marijuana nerds something "different".

You've fallen for the same old "high calyx to leaf ratio" cannabis hype posted by seed vendors. Damn straight don't worry about bud production. The frickin' leaves and the root system is what drives bud production, fool. Again, if you can't wrap your mind around that simple botanical concept, it aint my problem.

UB

I'm going to do an LED grow and trim all the leaves just B4 flower.

Bonzi Lighthouse said:

I'm going to do an LED grow and trim all the leaves just B4 flower.

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ignorance must be bliss....

Going to do a 2000w HPS grow over an 8 foot by 5 foot area, 1500PPM C02 and I will cross oceans to make sure I lose no leafs!!!

1) I lose no leaf the plant doesn't eject herself
2) Whatever I do I will not cut an OG plant in flower again, that was horrible.. Mustn't do that again!

Uncle Ben said:

I've been growing all kinds of plant material for 40 + years and that includes cannabis back in the 70's. Trust me, I've about "done it all".



Since when were you appointed the forum spokesman? This is the forum politicking and clique crap I was talking about. When it comes to cannabis forums, popular school of thought is usually pretty screwed up...creepy in fact.

The reason why I post about other plant material and their responses is to make a point about plant responses. If you don't get it, that's not my problem.



Aint competing, just trying to teach you marijuana nerds something "different".

You've fallen for the same old "high calyx to leaf ratio" cannabis hype posted by seed vendors. Damn straight don't worry about bud production. The frickin' leaves and the root system is what drives bud production, fool. Again, if you can't wrap your mind around that simple botanical concept, it aint my problem.

UB

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LOL well this "fool" is outproducing you by a good margin utilizing high number SOG AND leaf removal. I "get" how to produce as much usable bud as possible in a given space apparently that is not enough for you master grower. If you cant wrap your mind around this simple fact it is your problem not mine. I am certainly not alone either. Almost every single 1.5+ gram per watt grower that isnt vertical is doing the same exact thing. I guess we are all "fools" for yielding so damn much instead of listening to old guys like you with your old school methods .... lol When you start yielding over a gram per watt chime in again champ. You are mostly just hurting yourself since most people reading and seeing with their own eyes can see exactly who is right on this topic. Deal with it =)

I agree with you. Using fruit trees as the example. A farmer wanting bigger apples in his orchard prunes the flowers, not the leaves. Less flowering sites means bigger fruits as the energy produced has less areas to feed to put it simply. That's how people grow these crazy big pumpkins or any monster sized fruit. Same with our beloved plant. Leaves collect solar power and produce food. Flowers use that solar power to grow. Removing the fan leaves is completely non-productive. So if you want big buds you have to instruct the plant where you want those to be.