Police Interactions.

TrippleDip said:

Sadly I don't see us moving past a force based solution for making everybody play nice together. Some people are bad people and we need to accept that reality and work within it.


Daaamn, that's deep.

But aren't we then looking to more gang like situation where they are in more charge (eg with funding) and there is less transparency? I think that cops should be liable in civil suits for sure but that's the case here (I think).

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Every person is justified using proportional DEFENSIVE force.

No person, even "authorities", are justified in using OFFENSIVE force.

When those concepts are more widely accepted, the solutions will be there. People just have to escape from what they've been told and allow their intellect and conscience to guide them, and stop believing in the concept of "authority".

There is no solution which will make every person behave, but to think it is necessary to exempt a whole class of people from individual responsibility and call them "authorities" and allow a society to be based in the idea that we need those people to rob us in order to protect us from people who might rob us...is not consistent with reality.

rollitup said:

Have you ever been to the US? Have you ever had an unpleasant encounter with US police?

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Yeah, and no. Every encounter with US police has been pretty ok. I even got picked up by ICE once walking along the NH-Canada border, and they were pretty cool too.

Our countries aren't *that* different you know, much of the US is closer and more accessible to me than Canada. Being so close means the populations are really intertwined too - I have two American grandfathers and dozens of American cousins. You probably have family up here too.

Let me rant about some of the encounters I have had with the police here and why I think they were justified (I think you will disagree)

• Cop cracked a friends skull for being lippy. Unjustified, worse knowing there's nothing you can do - no witnesses, no money to waste on a lawyer. No one can argue that events like this aren't the cops fault, but tbh he had it coming, some citizen on the street would probably have had even less restraint.
  
• Got arrested someplace we shouldn't have been, were separated, taken to machine rooms without cameras, handcuffed to the wall and told to talk under threat of violence. Justified. We were in the wrong obviously by being there in the first place. I would even go as far as supporting the torture of convicted criminals in order to convict more criminals, court approved only in extreme cases obviously.
• Got arrested on the street outside my house because they thought I was someone else fleeing a robbery. Justified, see above. Preventing crime means some innocent people will experience some inconvenience for the good of everyone.

Probably half the people on here have experienced having a cop approach while smoking only to search you (illegally), take your drugs and give you a warning. What's the other option (in the current system)? He could just arrest you, search you legally but then he would have to charge you. Sometimes the illegal route really is the best way.

This was kindof a rambling post I know, but life is messy, what is right, just, or morally correct is not drawn in stone like the laws are and this debate is a reflection of that. Police really are there for the benefit of us all, and it sucks that some innocent people are treated unfairly but it is reality and I'm prepared to live with it over the alternatives.

Sidenote: If we truly care about the people shot by police, instead of putting up roadblocks for them, we would decrease the number of people on the streets with guns, decrease the number of people with the mindset they would rather suicide by cop than go to jail. Then we would see a better more amicable interaction between police and citizen.

TacoMac said:

The biggest problem with policing in this day and age is that the vast majority of police officers are former military.

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No, the biggest problem is the belief that it is acceptable for police to forcibly extract money from people (that's how they're paid) rather than allowing people the option of choosing other arrangements for their security.

If you or I forcibly extracted money from disinterested people in order to fund our pay, wouldn't you agree that was a criminal act?

Police have no legal obligation to protect people. They simply enforce laws, sometimes.

Rob Roy said:

Every person is justified using proportional DEFENSIVE force.

No person, even "authorities", are justified in using OFFENSIVE force.

When those concepts are more widely accepted, the solutions will be there.

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That's a great observation. Offensive force however will still be used by criminals and one might be justified in using pre-emptive offensive force? How would you stop a suicide for example using only defensive force?

Rob Roy said:

Police have no legal obligation to protect people.... don't allow people the option of choosing other arrangements for their security.

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So are you against the monopoly they have (not having one would be a disaster - see sharia law in the uk) or are you just against the lack of accountability, which we can agree is definitely a problem. Again there are no easy solutions to the problems, who would become a cop of they would be sued on their first week?

TacoMac said:

The biggest problem with policing in this day and age is that the vast majority of police officers are former military.
That's a huge, huge mistake.

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Correctional officers fall into this category as well.
Somehow this country has turned law enforcement officers into social service workers; a role they are ill-equipped for.
My neighbors(2 women)got into an argument recently, no violence occurred but the police were called.
Big mistake, 10 cops showed up and detained the mother...while the entire neighborhood watched.
When I was a child, the police were never called for such things; and it only made the situation worse.
Now her husband is filing for divorce, for dialing 911!.
Studies have shown increasing the amount of police does not deter crime, nor does law enforcement prevent crime; as police almost always arrive on scene after a crime has been committed. This has always been the premise of self-protection, as the police are unable to by default.
Some departments have a formal complaint process, many do not due to union contracts prohibiting this; the union's tactic of keeping police accountability down.
The other issue is paid administrative leaves when they royally fuck up, in my town this is solely up to the chief of police.
That needs to be eliminated, taxpayers shouldn't be footing some salary for bad piggies who shoot unarmed civilians and such; which also just happened in my town. A town whose starting salaries for officers stands at $72k, more than most teachers.

We are over-policed by design, by a paranoid government that refuses to keep it's nose out of foreign affairs; thereby creating their own problems.
Unfortunately we are caught in the middle, and therefore we all suffer.
Policing for profit is another problem, an issue the U.S. Supreme court ruled on earlier this year; in favor of the plaintiff whose truck the police tried keeping.
That should help a bit.

TrippleDip said:

That's a great observation. Offensive force however will still be used by criminals and one might be justified in using pre-emptive offensive force? How would you stop a suicide for example using only defensive force?

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It depends on the relationship I had or didn't have with the potential suicide person.

To create or endorse a system which is reliant on preemptive offensive force in order to protect people from offensive force is not what I would do.

TrippleDip said:

So are you against the monopoly they have (not having one would be a disaster - see sharia law in the uk) or are you just against the lack of accountability, which we can agree is definitely a problem. Again there are no easy solutions to the problems, who would become a cop of they would be sued on their first week?

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I am against the use of offensive force.

Whether that offensive force is wielded by people in police costumes, judges robes or fancy titles that people are trained to believe they must obey or not doesn't matter to me.

I am not for cops in the mode they presently exist in, they use offensive force as an integral part of their operational mode. So it's impossible for them to be the thing which prevents offensive force, since they are committing it simply by their very existence.

When I was growing up in Compton, the Compton PD used to take crips and bloods and drop them off deep in enemy neighborhoods. Sometimes they make it out and sometimes they didn’t. They abolished the Compton PD years ago and replaced them with L.A. Sheriffs, who did the exact same thing through out Southcentral L. A. They shut down Compton pd because of too many unsolved homicides.

There was an younger inmate on my caseload from Compton that I was having a conversation with and I asked him if they were still doing that in Compton and he said they did it to him but he got lucky and got out. A friend of his from his neighborhood wasn’t so lucky though and was murdered from being dropped off in a crip neighborhood. Dirty.

Rob Roy said:

I am against the use of offensive force.

Whether that offensive force is wielded by people in police costumes, judges robes or fancy titles that people are trained to believe they must obey or not doesn't matter to me.

I am not for cops in the mode they presently exist in, they use offensive force as an integral part of their operational mode. So it's impossible for them to be the thing which prevents offensive force, since they are committing it simply by their very existence.

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I find your writings at time offensive. Why do you force others to read them.

Obepawn said:

When I was growing up in Compton, the Compton PD used to take crips and bloods and drop them off deep in enemy neighborhoods. Sometimes they make it out and sometimes they didn’t. They abolished the Compton PD years ago and replaced them with L.A. Sheriffs, who did the exact same thing through out Southcentral L. A. They shut down Compton pd because of too many unsolved homicides.

There was an younger inmate on my caseload from Compton that I was having a conversation with and I asked him if they were still doing that in Compton and he said they did it to him but he got lucky and got out. A friend of his from his neighborhood wasn’t so lucky though and was murdered from being dropped off in a crip neighborhood. Dirty.

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When Compton lost its swap meet during the King riots everything went down hill. That and crack ruined Compton

londonfog said:

When Compton lost its swap meet during the King riots everything went down hill. That and crack ruined Compton

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Compton started going down hill in the early 80s and yes, crack was a big part of that. The drive-bys started strong in the mid-80s.

Obepawn said:

Compton started going down hill in the early 80s and yes, crack was a big part of that. The drive-bys started strong in the mid-80s.

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and was finished off by losing that swap meet. No longer any reason to go...unless you looking for some crack

Obepawn said:

When I was growing up in Compton, the Compton PD used to take crips and bloods and drop them off deep in enemy neighborhoods. Sometimes they make it out and sometimes they didn’t. They abolished the Compton PD years ago and replaced them with L.A. Sheriffs, who did the exact same thing through out Southcentral L. A. They shut down Compton pd because of too many unsolved homicides.

There was an younger inmate on my caseload from Compton that I was having a conversation with and I asked him if they were still doing that in Compton and he said they did it to him but he got lucky and got out. A friend of his from his neighborhood wasn’t so lucky though and was murdered from being dropped off in a crip neighborhood. Dirty.

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I know, the US pigs do all kinds of sadistic, heinous shit. Every day!

So I find it particularly offensive when some pea-brained troll posts here to defend them, saying their actions are justified, and they're just doing their job, and any other pigshit.

So I conclude that the trolls are either ignorant about it, or they are a pig themselves.

TrippleDip said:

yeah, so? life is messy and people make mistakes.


the man failed to have any rights the second he was 'detained' as per the cop telling him that

You claim racial bias yet admit he's out of place in a white neighbourhood. That's not bias, it's good policing, looking out for what might be out of place then checking up on it.

You claim that the mans word should be enough, what if he was jigging a car window and said 'oh it's my car', would that be enough? Criminals always have alibis, picking up trash is a pretty sweet one. People that push for concessions to criminals are usually criminals themselves. Just saying.

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Are you sucking on a cops dick right now?

rollitup said:

I know, the US pigs do all kinds of sadistic, heinous shit. Every day!

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And you can say with a straight face that they don't do anything good either? That you don't benefit *at all* from the service they provide?

ps: I'm not a troll, just someone that realizes that life, like politics, has nuance. There are many shills that would have you believe everything is black and white.

TrippleDip said:

And you can say with a straight face that they don't do anything good either? That you don't benefit *at all* from the service they provide?

ps: I'm not a troll, just someone that realizes that life, like politics, has nuance. There are many shills that would have you believe everything is black and white.

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How small is the dick of the cop that you are sucking off right now?

TrippleDip said:

And you can say with a straight face that they don't do anything good either? That you don't benefit *at all* from the service they provide?

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That's not the point.

There are plenty of fine police officers doing a fine job.

The problem is that the ratio of bad officers doing all manner of bad things has skyrocketed over the last 20 years.

Oddly, that's the same amount of time most of them were in the military beating Afghans and Iraqis senseless with complete immunity.

There used to be a story of bad police conduct once in a while. Now, it's nearly every day.

In fact, more unarmed black men were killed by police the last 3 years than soldiers in combat zones in that same time period.

It's gotten completely out of hand.

rollitup said:

I know, the US pigs do all kinds of sadistic, heinous shit. Every day!

So I find it particularly offensive when some pea-brained troll posts here to defend them, saying their actions are justified, and they're just doing their job, and any other pigshit.

So I conclude that the trolls are either ignorant about it, or they are a pig themselves.

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I have problem with cops doing there job based on departmental policy but dropping gang members off into areas they know would murder them is nowhere in their policy, therefore it’s criminal.

Obepawn said:

I have problem with cops doing there job based on departmental policy but dropping gang members off into areas they know would murder them is nowhere in their policy, therefore it’s criminal.

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If nothing happens to that person, it's still a crime. In most jurisdictions it would be reckless endangerment.

If the person is assaulted, they could be charged in the assault itself as they took an active part in it.

If the person is killed, they could face conspiracy to commit murder charges and at the very least would face criminally negligent homicide charges.

Any way you slice it, it's a crime.