Phenotype hunting - vegging vs flowering
- Thread starter Helmut79
- Start date
Odin*
Well-Known Member
Are you talking day of “flip”, or day of “chop”?
My thumb, day one 12/12, and I’ve got strains that would finish 16+ft tall.
Also strain dependent. “M4” (#4 of Animal Cookies bagseed from Sis-in-law) tops out at ~5’6”-5’9” (no training/topping), ~.5lb per plant, with a “forefinger” base at the start of bloom (day 1 of 12/12). For reference, size 14 ring finger, 6’2”, 240 (up~20lbs since getting back in gym).
On topic, necessity requires me to pick up 1,200-1,400 clones this week (fuck me!, but I know the dude). I’ll post a picture of each and expect a definitive answer on which will give me the highest yield. Don’t answer correctly and get “bofo’d” 79 style. By “correctly”, I mean that your answer has to suit my own “desires”. By “my own desires” I mean that I’m going to ignore your responses and choose the one closest to the moon right... about... Now!
Helmut79
Well-Known Member
I'm going to put few comments with red color in your essay, Odin:
================================================
Plenty of intelligent people have told you that you cannot identify the heaviest yielder in veg. It is apparent that you have already made up your mind and are only looking for responses that support your incorrect assumption.
I have never even thought about identifying the heaviest yielder in veg. Instead I was thinking about tossing the smallest ones which are ridiculously smaller or less vigorous compared to the rest. For what reason are you bending my words like that, you cunt? Think about the difference of what you just said and what I said. Based on your expression I get a feeling that next people that I'm going to quote from this thread now are very unintelligent:
1) My experince indoors is the most vigirous will produce the most, not the best...
2) High yeilding plants that are slow to veg is not a commercially desired traits over a high yeilding plants that are quick to veg. From a business point of veiw id say your crazy looking for slow growing plants at any stage.
3) If you want the biggest yields then clone the fastest and biggest plants and select from them, if you want the best quality grow 100 plants and select the strongest. Lets not confuse simple practice.
4) For fast turnover you want the fastest vegging plants as they will be turning 12/12 early for a sea of green. That is the best way for business if you don’t care about plant potential. Grow a ton of little plants over and over as fast as possible. Yield per year not per plant.
5) Selecting slow growing plants is redundant, after you have done two grows ive completed three and outyielded your slow growers by a few hundred grams. Biological efficiency is a general rule we can apply, never have i had a small veg plant finish with bigger yeild than a bigger veg plant of the same strain.
6) On many occasions the strongest vegging plants will perform strong in flower. You can use it as a guide yes. But to say it's an absolute evey time would be misleading.
7) If you have a small number of bought seeds, grow and clone every one. If you have a ton of your own F2s or crosses, sprout as many as you can in your available space and then have several rounds of elimination, removing the runts and stragglers as they grow and crowd each other out. Breeder Steve pops thousands of seeds at once and then cherry picks while they are still very small. You can spot leaf shape, internode spacing and vigor very early on.
8 ) What if you have 10,000 seeds? You couldn't possibly grow them all out. You can't spot keepers in seedling stage, but you can remove the plants that exhibit unwanted or less desirable traits early on. Whorled phyllotaxy/triploid for example. If you sprout more seeds than you need, you can remove those, and those show right away. If you only sprout as many as you will flower, you're stuck growing them. It's a numbers game and the more you start with the more choosey you can be and the more likey you will end up with phenos that exhibit traits that you want.
9) This has “stumbled” away from my point that “you cannot properly identify your keeper without blooming it” and towards “but you can identify nasty crooked little midget dicks”. <<<------ this was said by yourself btw)
Well, as stated to the point of painful redundancy, you need to bloom each and every single plant. Even the nasty crooked little midget dicks. You cannot tell, at all, what that plant will yield without blooming it, nobody fucking knows, the damn thing has never been flowered before. Even the nasty crooked little midget dick has never been flowered before. A plant may be slow, for whatever reason, in it’s initial run from seed, but grow vigorously from clone, and ever after. This is what I had implied in my anecdotal tales, but they went over your head.
I like the way you express yourself with a help of fancy words that I have to google to find the meaning, but I'm not going to take your input as an absolute truth. Although I feel like there might be few really good thoughts that you have brought out. Thanks.
Now that you’ve been so rude, I’d also like to point out that you will not be successful in your “pheno hunt” due to your piss poor grow skills. Your plants are in sad shape. Not at deaths door, but appear much like the starved Ethiopian children from the charity commercials. Well, funny thing is that even if you sound like you know stuff and you obviously are more experienced at growing.. and taking into account how you criticize me negatively, I'm still able to produce more mass per x amount of time than you are. And the most funny thing about it is that I've never said I'm a good grower. I only remember calling myself a noob, which I am. I have a lot to learn and I'm sure I will get better and better. I hope to inspire at least few people though, that even a noob can grow for 1.6g per watt by vegging for 4 weeks and flowering for 10 weeks. Your “keeper” will likely be the plant with the highest stress resistance (giving you the most favorable outcome), but you will miss out on the plant that produces the best yield/flowers in optimal conditions (may, or may not be “one and the same”). This is a very good point. Might miss out, but might not aswell (I hope). My last yield was so big that I didn't expect it to take so much time to trim. For that reason I couldn't pay enough attention on my vegging plants. They were kept under the same conditions, but got a bit stretched out. I can see that myself too. They just got transplanted into bigger pots and fortunately they will be under very good conditions from now on and they wil get to veg for another 2 weeks before I flip them. It’s funny, because it’s an analogy that I commonly use. “You can’t take a starved Ethiopian kid, feed him a few slices of pizza, pump him full of steroids, and expect gold in the Olympics”.
You want to talk condescendingly to us, but are here asking a fuck ton of stupid questions, and can’t grow to save your ass. Press back and look at all the other threads out there and tell me again I am asking stupid questions
Look at how much useful time you have already spent here thanks to my questions. I'm asking a growing related questions which this forum should be about. I'm asking my questions the way that pisses people off. Got it, but for some reason it makes many people try harder when discussing something. Are you retarded, trolling, a “Retarded Troll”. (Not a question)
However, it’s not too late for you. Much like the “runts” in veg, you’re still in your infancy, with a chance to “grow”. Given time, you might just turn around and surprise us all and turn into a decent grower. That, or your “Fail” is so epic that your plants fire you. If we were to implement your “ass-umption”, we’d cull you right now and toss your ass in the trash, but we won’t do that, because we know that there may still be hope.
Ye ye ye. Try and beat my 1.6g per watt, you lame smartass. I know you don't believe it thanks to your narrow and pessimistic way of looking at life, but that's the best part of it - I take it as a compliment and as a most satisfying moment to brag about my results. It's just that.
================================================
Plenty of intelligent people have told you that you cannot identify the heaviest yielder in veg. It is apparent that you have already made up your mind and are only looking for responses that support your incorrect assumption.
I have never even thought about identifying the heaviest yielder in veg. Instead I was thinking about tossing the smallest ones which are ridiculously smaller or less vigorous compared to the rest. For what reason are you bending my words like that, you cunt? Think about the difference of what you just said and what I said. Based on your expression I get a feeling that next people that I'm going to quote from this thread now are very unintelligent:
1) My experince indoors is the most vigirous will produce the most, not the best...
2) High yeilding plants that are slow to veg is not a commercially desired traits over a high yeilding plants that are quick to veg. From a business point of veiw id say your crazy looking for slow growing plants at any stage.
3) If you want the biggest yields then clone the fastest and biggest plants and select from them, if you want the best quality grow 100 plants and select the strongest. Lets not confuse simple practice.
4) For fast turnover you want the fastest vegging plants as they will be turning 12/12 early for a sea of green. That is the best way for business if you don’t care about plant potential. Grow a ton of little plants over and over as fast as possible. Yield per year not per plant.
5) Selecting slow growing plants is redundant, after you have done two grows ive completed three and outyielded your slow growers by a few hundred grams. Biological efficiency is a general rule we can apply, never have i had a small veg plant finish with bigger yeild than a bigger veg plant of the same strain.
6) On many occasions the strongest vegging plants will perform strong in flower. You can use it as a guide yes. But to say it's an absolute evey time would be misleading.
7) If you have a small number of bought seeds, grow and clone every one. If you have a ton of your own F2s or crosses, sprout as many as you can in your available space and then have several rounds of elimination, removing the runts and stragglers as they grow and crowd each other out. Breeder Steve pops thousands of seeds at once and then cherry picks while they are still very small. You can spot leaf shape, internode spacing and vigor very early on.
8 ) What if you have 10,000 seeds? You couldn't possibly grow them all out. You can't spot keepers in seedling stage, but you can remove the plants that exhibit unwanted or less desirable traits early on. Whorled phyllotaxy/triploid for example. If you sprout more seeds than you need, you can remove those, and those show right away. If you only sprout as many as you will flower, you're stuck growing them. It's a numbers game and the more you start with the more choosey you can be and the more likey you will end up with phenos that exhibit traits that you want.
9) This has “stumbled” away from my point that “you cannot properly identify your keeper without blooming it” and towards “but you can identify nasty crooked little midget dicks”. <<<------ this was said by yourself btw)
Well, as stated to the point of painful redundancy, you need to bloom each and every single plant. Even the nasty crooked little midget dicks. You cannot tell, at all, what that plant will yield without blooming it, nobody fucking knows, the damn thing has never been flowered before. Even the nasty crooked little midget dick has never been flowered before. A plant may be slow, for whatever reason, in it’s initial run from seed, but grow vigorously from clone, and ever after. This is what I had implied in my anecdotal tales, but they went over your head.
I like the way you express yourself with a help of fancy words that I have to google to find the meaning, but I'm not going to take your input as an absolute truth. Although I feel like there might be few really good thoughts that you have brought out. Thanks.
Now that you’ve been so rude, I’d also like to point out that you will not be successful in your “pheno hunt” due to your piss poor grow skills. Your plants are in sad shape. Not at deaths door, but appear much like the starved Ethiopian children from the charity commercials. Well, funny thing is that even if you sound like you know stuff and you obviously are more experienced at growing.. and taking into account how you criticize me negatively, I'm still able to produce more mass per x amount of time than you are. And the most funny thing about it is that I've never said I'm a good grower. I only remember calling myself a noob, which I am. I have a lot to learn and I'm sure I will get better and better. I hope to inspire at least few people though, that even a noob can grow for 1.6g per watt by vegging for 4 weeks and flowering for 10 weeks. Your “keeper” will likely be the plant with the highest stress resistance (giving you the most favorable outcome), but you will miss out on the plant that produces the best yield/flowers in optimal conditions (may, or may not be “one and the same”). This is a very good point. Might miss out, but might not aswell (I hope). My last yield was so big that I didn't expect it to take so much time to trim. For that reason I couldn't pay enough attention on my vegging plants. They were kept under the same conditions, but got a bit stretched out. I can see that myself too. They just got transplanted into bigger pots and fortunately they will be under very good conditions from now on and they wil get to veg for another 2 weeks before I flip them. It’s funny, because it’s an analogy that I commonly use. “You can’t take a starved Ethiopian kid, feed him a few slices of pizza, pump him full of steroids, and expect gold in the Olympics”.
You want to talk condescendingly to us, but are here asking a fuck ton of stupid questions, and can’t grow to save your ass. Press back and look at all the other threads out there and tell me again I am asking stupid questions
Look at how much useful time you have already spent here thanks to my questions. I'm asking a growing related questions which this forum should be about. I'm asking my questions the way that pisses people off. Got it, but for some reason it makes many people try harder when discussing something. Are you retarded, trolling, a “Retarded Troll”. (Not a question)However, it’s not too late for you. Much like the “runts” in veg, you’re still in your infancy, with a chance to “grow”. Given time, you might just turn around and surprise us all and turn into a decent grower. That, or your “Fail” is so epic that your plants fire you. If we were to implement your “ass-umption”, we’d cull you right now and toss your ass in the trash, but we won’t do that, because we know that there may still be hope.
Ye ye ye. Try and beat my 1.6g per watt, you lame smartass. I know you don't believe it thanks to your narrow and pessimistic way of looking at life, but that's the best part of it - I take it as a compliment and as a most satisfying moment to brag about my results. It's just that.
Odin*
Well-Known Member
There isn’t a hammer big enough to pound this into your head.I'm going to put few comments with red color in your essay, Odin:
================================================
Plenty of intelligent people have told you that you cannot identify the heaviest yielder in veg. It is apparent that you have already made up your mind and are only looking for responses that support your incorrect assumption.
I have never even thought about identifying the heaviest yielder in veg. Instead I was thinking about tossing the smallest ones which are ridiculously smaller or less vigorous compared to the rest. For what reason are you bending my words like that, you cunt? Think about the difference of what you just said and what I said. Based on your expression I get a feeling that next people that I'm going to quote from this thread now are very unintelligent:
1) My experince indoors is the most vigirous will produce the most, not the best...
2) High yeilding plants that are slow to veg is not a commercially desired traits over a high yeilding plants that are quick to veg. From a business point of veiw id say your crazy looking for slow growing plants at any stage.
3) If you want the biggest yields then clone the fastest and biggest plants and select from them, if you want the best quality grow 100 plants and select the strongest. Lets not confuse simple practice.
4) For fast turnover you want the fastest vegging plants as they will be turning 12/12 early for a sea of green. That is the best way for business if you don’t care about plant potential. Grow a ton of little plants over and over as fast as possible. Yield per year not per plant.
5) Selecting slow growing plants is redundant, after you have done two grows ive completed three and outyielded your slow growers by a few hundred grams. Biological efficiency is a general rule we can apply, never have i had a small veg plant finish with bigger yeild than a bigger veg plant of the same strain.
6) On many occasions the strongest vegging plants will perform strong in flower. You can use it as a guide yes. But to say it's an absolute evey time would be misleading.
7) If you have a small number of bought seeds, grow and clone every one. If you have a ton of your own F2s or crosses, sprout as many as you can in your available space and then have several rounds of elimination, removing the runts and stragglers as they grow and crowd each other out. Breeder Steve pops thousands of seeds at once and then cherry picks while they are still very small. You can spot leaf shape, internode spacing and vigor very early on.
8 ) What if you have 10,000 seeds? You couldn't possibly grow them all out. You can't spot keepers in seedling stage, but you can remove the plants that exhibit unwanted or less desirable traits early on. Whorled phyllotaxy/triploid for example. If you sprout more seeds than you need, you can remove those, and those show right away. If you only sprout as many as you will flower, you're stuck growing them. It's a numbers game and the more you start with the more choosey you can be and the more likey you will end up with phenos that exhibit traits that you want.
9) This has “stumbled” away from my point that “you cannot properly identify your keeper without blooming it” and towards “but you can identify nasty crooked little midget dicks”. <<<------ this was said by yourself btw)
Well, as stated to the point of painful redundancy, you need to bloom each and every single plant. Even the nasty crooked little midget dicks. You cannot tell, at all, what that plant will yield without blooming it, nobody fucking knows, the damn thing has never been flowered before. Even the nasty crooked little midget dick has never been flowered before. A plant may be slow, for whatever reason, in it’s initial run from seed, but grow vigorously from clone, and ever after. This is what I had implied in my anecdotal tales, but they went over your head.
I like the way you express yourself with a help of fancy words that I have to google to find the meaning, but I'm not going to take your input as an absolute truth. Although I feel like there might be few really good thoughts that you have brought out. Thanks.
Now that you’ve been so rude, I’d also like to point out that you will not be successful in your “pheno hunt” due to your piss poor grow skills. Your plants are in sad shape. Not at deaths door, but appear much like the starved Ethiopian children from the charity commercials. Well, funny thing is that even if you sound like you know stuff and you obviously are more experienced at growing.. and taking into account how you criticize me negatively, I'm still able to produce more mass per x amount of time than you are. And the most funny thing about it is that I've never said I'm a good grower. I only remember calling myself a noob, which I am. I have a lot to learn and I'm sure I will get better and better. I hope to inspire at least few people though, that even a noob can grow for 1.6g per watt by vegging for 4 weeks and flowering for 10 weeks. Your “keeper” will likely be the plant with the highest stress resistance (giving you the most favorable outcome), but you will miss out on the plant that produces the best yield/flowers in optimal conditions (may, or may not be “one and the same”). This is a very good point. Might miss out, but might not aswell (I hope). My last yield was so big that I didn't expect it to take so much time to trim. For that reason I couldn't pay enough attention on my vegging plants. They were kept under the same conditions, but got a bit stretched out. I can see that myself too. They just got transplanted into bigger pots and fortunately they will be under very good conditions from now on and they wil get to veg for another 2 weeks before I flip them. It’s funny, because it’s an analogy that I commonly use. “You can’t take a starved Ethiopian kid, feed him a few slices of pizza, pump him full of steroids, and expect gold in the Olympics”.
You want to talk condescendingly to us, but are here asking a fuck ton of stupid questions, and can’t grow to save your ass. Press back and look at all the other threads out there and tell me again I am asking stupid questions
However, it’s not too late for you. Much like the “runts” in veg, you’re still in your infancy, with a chance to “grow”. Given time, you might just turn around and surprise us all and turn into a decent grower. That, or your “Fail” is so epic that your plants fire you. If we were to implement your “ass-umption”, we’d cull you right now and toss your ass in the trash, but we won’t do that, because we know that there may still be hope.
Ye ye ye. Try and beat my 1.6g per watt, you lame smartass. I know you don't believe it thanks to your narrow and pessimistic way of looking at life, but that's the best part of it - I take it as a compliment and as a most satisfying moment to brag about my results. It's just that.
In a nutshell (AGAIN, but a big nut);
-You did not inquire about mutant “crooked midget plants”, you asked about plants that are smaller within a same strain bean run. You can identify “mutants” that will never grow properly. This, only if you already know how to grow. You don’t, so it does not pertain to you, and does not relate to your question. You have provided pictures that prove my point.
-You cannot identify the heaviest yielding “keeper” from a group of plant’s in their initial bean run based on veg performance alone. You cannot even identify the “fastest veg’r“, as a lot can change in subsequent clone runs. The only thing that you can do is speculate at which may be the largest plant at “chop”, which may or may not be the largest yielder, or even produce buds worth growing a second time.
You are challenged contextually and semantically, so I’ll just “go with your flow bro” so that you can sleep at night...
Take the “biggest” plant you have and that’s your “super elite mega yielding keeper, browsef”. Bro, big plants yield big, bro. Brochacho, I heard this from my friend that started using Advanced Nutrients full line yesterday, bro, so for sure it’s legit. Also, bro, I would just feed straight nutes, fuck diluting it, bro, cuz it will make them bigger. Ok, Robro Cop. Last thing, bro, chop off all of those big bro fan leaves, bro. Cuz I heard they steal bro energy from the plant bro. Got it, Bilbro Baggins. Bromigo out.
Odin*
Well-Known Member
Nope, I’m killing it. My wife is 5’ nothing, weighs 100 even, ass for days, 32DD. Together for 18 years, 3 kids. Retired at 31 from office life into running “passive” businesses and to focus on growing (which I’ve been at nearly 20 years). Numerous warehouse grows that are all getting licensed and just merged with another big grower that is developing in various parts of the state. Jumping into extracts, seeds, strain patents, branding, etc. Right now I’m in the game room drinking, smoking, and wrapping presents, been too busy to get it done sooner. Wife is Central American, so we’ve got friends and family here partying up a storm.
Merry Christmas and have a Happy New Year!
Anothermeduser
Well-Known Member
Sunsabitches... ive been over "bro'd"... you folks could rather make racist memes and spread your internet joy that way than this kiddie drivel.. thanks for the knowlege for all though.... read robbie clarks book and practice
Helmut79
Well-Known Member
A fucked up way to be happy about yourself. Good luck to your kids, you piece of shit.
GreenHighlander
Well-Known Member
Myself nor anyone else could of said it better.
Good luck to this money hungry dude and his stretchy sick ass looking plants
kkt3
Well-Known Member
I’ve been interested in learning about pheno hunting. Grew out some fem JH this last summer and was quite surprised by the difference in my 2 plants. Organic grow in 20 gallon planters. One plant was short, 5’ max, flowered way ahead of the other, and gave me unbelievable buds of high quality smoke. The other was stretchy and over 9’, finished flowering about a month after the other one, and had smaller larfy buds.
So I cloned the first one to use as a mother. Took some clones from her and currently have one in my tent that I lst’d and put on 12/12 Dec 24. Hoping to get the same buddage that came from her Mom.
Sorry for my ramblings, but the point I am trying to make is I should have cloned the second JH as the smoke from her was quite a bit better then the first one. You know, the kind where shit I hope no one comes over for a while!!
So this is a perfect example of what Odin is saying. You have to flower them out to see what you get.
So I cloned the first one to use as a mother. Took some clones from her and currently have one in my tent that I lst’d and put on 12/12 Dec 24. Hoping to get the same buddage that came from her Mom.
Sorry for my ramblings, but the point I am trying to make is I should have cloned the second JH as the smoke from her was quite a bit better then the first one. You know, the kind where shit I hope no one comes over for a while!!
So this is a perfect example of what Odin is saying. You have to flower them out to see what you get.
Kingrow1
Well-Known Member
Ya producing uniform plants takes skill, until you can your not seeing different phenos your just making errors.
I can take any strain and the wrong conditions and produce two different plants easily, not different phenos just the result of stress...
Helmut79
Well-Known Member
I believe much of what Odin said could be true, to certain extent, but there are always 2 sides to every aspect. Let's not deny the other one - some plants are just not worth cloning if you're dealing with lots of plants imo. Got to know where the line should be drawn and that line could be of a personal preferance. Many people here might even believe into cloning midget dicks so to say.
Kingrow1
Well-Known Member
If you want quality buy a quality strain, dont try and coax some stronger pheno out of a weak strain like many are suggesting.
Odin*
Well-Known Member
XipXipXoom
Active Member
One thing OP should realize, especially since he said that he's in it for business, is that ppl already established in "the business" have no incentive to give you accurate information. Quite the opposite, actually. They have incentive to offer up bitcoin to anyone who participates in feeding you disinformstion. To commercial growers, the only enemy bigger than home and hobby growers are other commercial growers.
Helmut79
Well-Known Member
Could you please explain, why home?