Pearl Harbor

Discussion in 'Toke N Talk' started by dirtsurfr, Dec 7, 2013.


    dirtsurfr Well-Known Member

    After seeing the Arizona I volunteered for the scuttle detail and shoring team leader on my ship. I won't explain.
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    doublejj Well-Known Member


    Singlemalt Well-Known Member

    That was moving.

    Perspective is based on experience and knowledge. Some of us had parents, relatives and neighbors that fought WW2; that colors our perspective from our earliest memories. You younger ones can't see it from our perspective. I'd have dropped them

    Bombur Well-Known Member

    Me too. The death toll would have been much, much worse if we had decided on a ground attack with infantry. The geography of japan coupled with their tenacity and refusal to surrender would have resulted in one of the, if not THE bloodiest conflicts in history. People spew out the numbers of casualties from the nuclear bombs like they would have been avoided by electing a full-scale ground assault on JAPAN!!!! These people did not even surrender immediately following the nuclear attacks, what do you think would have happened in a conventional war.. it was the obvious choice IMO.
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    Commander Strax

    Commander Strax Well-Known Member


    Hemlock Well-Known Member

    Most of the Killing was done prior to the Nukes. Fuk 80% of Toyko was gone before the bombs...most cities were 50% destroyed beofre the Bomb. General Curtis Lamay's bomb group did a hell of a job prepping the battlefield in case of an Infantry ground assult but they dropped the bombs instead. when Laymay was asked if he would have liked to have killed less folks his response was what every Infantry man wants to hears, : would you have suggested that we kill fewer Japs and let our boys get slaughtered when they hit the beach, how moral is that."

    curious2garden Well-Known Member

    General Curtis LeMay

    BarnBuster Virtually Unknown Member

    just finished a new book about Pearl Harbor, Adm Kimmel and Gen Short, worth a read:

    Last edited: Dec 6, 2016

    haight Well-Known Member

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    ttystikk Well-Known Member

    It is an extremely meaningful gesture for Prime Minister Abe to come to visit the Arizona Memorial, just as it was for President Obama to visit the Hiroshima Memorial.

    Some might argue it came too late; my own grandfather was a WWII war veteran and did not live to see these events.

    My response is that these events are for our generation, so that we don't forget how awful total war in the Nuclear Age can be- and to remember that we are much stronger together as friends.

    It's not quite Dec 7 yet, but it's been on my mind lately. Recent world events have shown me that we are just far enough away from those days that some people will consider total war as a way to achieve their goals again, just as Americans seem to have forgotten the lessons of the Great Depression of the Thirties.

    May we all find peace- and the chance to share it with our great grandchildren.

    ttystikk Well-Known Member

    Not being a military veteran, there are many things about serving that I don't understand. This post is three years old and I hope I might change your mind? I'm sincerely interested.
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    ThaiBaby1 Well-Known Member

    Popular myth that the atomic bombs ended the war, Russia's entry against Japan was the main factor.

    ttystikk Well-Known Member

    I'm a bit of a WWII scholar and I disagree. Russia saw the end coming and made some land grabs while the getting was good.

    ThaiBaby1 Well-Known Member

    But it made Japan see that it was absolutely hopeless to go on.

    “The atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all.”

    — Maj. Gen. Curtis LeMay, WWII Air Force Commander of the 21st Bomber Command, Sept. 20, 1945.

    ttystikk Well-Known Member

    Two nuclear weapons and the threat of many more certainly weighed heavily on the decision. He had his own reasons for saying what he did.

    curious2garden Well-Known Member


    ThaiBaby1 Well-Known Member

    Lemay had already directed the firebombing of 67 major cities, Japanese cities were especially vulnerable to firebombing. All the large cities were already destroyed. Tokyo's firebombing caused more immediate deaths than Hiroshima or Nagasaki.
    "The Operation Meetinghouse firebombing of Tokyo on the night of 9 March 1945 was the single deadliest air raid of World War II,greater than Dresden, Hiroshima, or Nagasaki as single events."
    Lemay was only one of many opinions that the bomb didn't need to be dropped.

    In Mandate for Change, Gen. Dwight Eisenhower wrote that when Secretary of War Henry Stimson told him atomic bombs were going to be used, “I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary…
    Alperovitz’s research found that Adm. Lewis Strauss, special assistant to WW II Navy Secretary James Forrestal, wrote to the naval historian Robert Albion Dec. 19, 1960 “from the Navy’s point of view, there are statements by Admiral King, Admiral Halsey, Admiral Radford, Admiral Nimitz and others who expressed themselves to the effect that neither the atomic bomb nor the proposed invasion of the Japanese mainland were necessary to produce the surrender.”

    In early May of 1946 Hoover met with General Douglas MacArthur. Hoover recorded in his diary, "I told MacArthur of my memorandum of mid-May 1945 to Truman, that peace could be had with Japan by which our major objectives would be accomplished. MacArthur said that was correct and that we would have avoided all of the losses, the Atomic bomb, and the entry of Russia into Manchuria."

    Gar Alperovitz, The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb, pg. 350-351.
    There are many more
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    BarnBuster Virtually Unknown Member

    save it for the Nagasaki and Hiroshima thread(s) in August, dude.

    Medal of Honor

    Bennion, Mervyn, Capt., USN, CO of USS West Virginia, casualty
    Cannon, George H., First Lt., USMC, casualty of Midway Island NAS
    Finn, John W., Lt.(jg), USN, NAS Kaneohe Bay, from Los Angeles, CA (20 shrapnel wounds from firing at Japanese planes)
    Flaherty, Francis C., Ens., USNR, casualty of USS Oklahoma
    Fuqua, Samuel G. (Glenn), Capt., USN, USS Arizona, from Missouri
    Hill, Edwin J. (Joseph), Boatswain CWO, USN, casualty of USS Nevada
    Jones, Herbert C., Ens., USN, casualty of USS California
    Kidd, Isaac C., R. Adm., USN, from Ohio, casualty of USS Arizona
    Pharris, Jackson C., Gunner, USN, USS California, from Columbus, GA
    Reeves, Thomas J., Chief Radioman WO(RAD), USN, casualty of USS California
    Ross, Donald K., Lt.Cmdr, USN, USS Nevada
    Scott, Robert R., Machinist’s Mate first class MM1c, USN, casualty of USS California
    Tomich, Peter, Chief Watertender, USN, casualty of USS Utah
    Van Valkenburgh, Franklin, Capt(CO), USN, CO USS Arizona, casualty
    Ward, James Richard, Seaman first class, USN, casualty of USS Oklahoma
    Young, Cassin, Capt., USN, Washington DC, USS Vestal

    Navy Cross

    Austin, John A., Chief Carpenter, USN, casualty of USS Oklahoma
    Baker, Lionel H., Pharmacist’s Mate second class, USN
    Bolser, Gordon E. Lt.(jg), USN
    Bothne, Adoloph M., Boatswain, USN
    Burford, William P., Lt. Comdr., USN
    Christopher, Harald J., Ens., USNR, casualty of USS Nevada
    Curtis, Ned B., Pharmacist’s Mate second class, USN
    Daly, Edward Carlyle, Coxwain, USN, casualty of USS Downes
    Darling, Willard D., Cpl., USMC
    Davis, Frederick C., Ens., USNR, casualty of USS Nevada
    Dickinson, Clarence E. Jr., Lt., USN
    Douglas, C. E., Gunnery Sgt., USMC
    Driskel, Joseph R., Corporal, USMC
    Dunlap, Ernest H. Jr., Ens., USN
    Edwards, John Perry, Ens., USNR
    Etchell, George D., Shipfitter, USN
    Fleming, W.D., Boatswain’s Mate first class, USN
    Gombasy, L.G., Seaman second class, USN
    Graham, Donald A., Aviation Machinist’s Mate first class, USN
    Hailey, Thomas E., Sgt., USMC
    Hansen, Alfred L., Chief Machinist’s Mate, USN
    Huttenberg, Allen J., Ens., USNR
    Isquith, Solomon S., Lt. Cmdr. USN
    Jewel, Jesse D., Comdr.(MC), USN
    Kauffman, Draper L., Lt., USNR
    Larson, Nils R., Ens., USN
    Ley, F. C. Jr., Fireman second class, USNR
    McMurtry, Paul J., Boatswain’s Mate first class, USN
    Mead, Harry R., Radioman second class, USN
    Miller, Doris, Mess Attendant first class, USN (Read More)
    Miller, Jim D., Lt.(jg), USN
    Moore, Fred K., Seaman first class, USN, casualty of USS Arizona
    Outerbridge, William W., Lt. Comdr., USN
    Parker, William W., Seaman first class, USN
    Peterson, Robert J., Radioman second class, USN
    Pharris, Jackson C., Gunner, USN (upgraded to Medal of Honor)
    Phillips, John S., Comdr. USN
    Riggs, Cecil D., Lt. Comdr. (MC), USN
    Robb, James W. Jr., Lt.(jg), USN
    Roberts, William R., Radioman second class, USN
    Ruth, Wesley H., Ens., USN
    Singleton, Arnold, Ens., USN
    Smith, Harold F., Boatswain’s Mate second class, USN
    Snyder, J. L., Yeoman first class USN
    Taussig, Joseph K. Jr., Ens., USN
    Taylor, Thomas H., Ens., USN
    Teaff, Perry L, Ens., USN
    Thatcher, Albert C., Aviation Machinists Mate second class, USN
    Thomas, Francis J., Lt. Comdr., USN
    Thomas, Robert E. Jr., Ens., USN
    Vaseen, John B., Fireman second class, USNR
    Silver Star

    Kiefer, Edwin H., Lt.(jg), USNR
    Marshall, Theodore W., Lt., USNR
    Owen, George T., Comdr., USN
    Shapley, Alan, Maj., USMC

    Navy and Marine Corps Medal

    Day, Francis D., Chief Watertender, USN, casualty of USS Oklahoma
    Schmitt, Aloysius H., Shipfitter first class, USN, casualty of USS Oklahoma
    Wright, Paul R., Chief Watertender, USNR, casualty of USS Oklahoma
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2016
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    Davmalk Active Member

    If you believe that two atomic bombs leveling two city in an instant didn’t have anything to do with the wars end that's just fucking crazy.

    Unclebaldrick Well-Known Member

    The declaration of war by the Soviet Union was prearranged. Yes, it was a very significant factor as the Soviets had not yet been at war with Japan and that elements of the Japanese government were hoping to negotiate a conditional surrender with the Allies through Soviet diplomatic channels. The actual Soviet invasion was not as much of a factor as the diplomatic aspects of it.

    It wasn't just a land grab though. The Tehran Conference set down the principle of Soviet war with Japan within 3 months of the Germany defeat.
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2016
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