Outdoor SIPs

Tim Fox said:

SUNDAY SUNDAY<<<< update day,,

Click to expand...

LOL... Sunday Updates are only on my indoor thread, this one is more of a post whenever deal.

The sun is finally out!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's all the news that's fit to print.

I'm finding that my SIP experiment has challenges. When I saw how quickly the plants grew it worried me, and now my concerns are being realized. "Normally", you can put a plant out in a 10 gallon pot, it will find its limits, and with periodic top feeding you and the plant can maintain a balance of its size and its needs. It seems that SIPs boost growth, and it appears that with the "ultimate lighting" the plants are out-growing their pots and the nutes that I originally put into the soil. The leaves are starting to fade and become pale. I think the plant is now like a big fish in a small tank.

I'm going to start to top feed, which is not the standard SIP recommendation (based on the advice of SIP manufacturers). I'll do limited top watering, trying not to water enough that I wash the nutes into the res.

Other than that, I'm wondering about trimming techniques? Would physically making the plant smaller diminish its need for nutrients? I have no issues with quantity, I would rather have small healthy plants with quality bud than large plants that are straining to hold it together. What I don't know is if I can do a fairly intense trim/cut of the plant, and how it would recover? I'm assuming that if that is a known technique, I'd want to do that before it goes into flower...?

This is all a big experiment, I have no problem trying different strategies and seeing what works.

Rob. I would pull them from the sips and just plant the bottom wick straight in the soil. This will mitigate all of the nutrient issues at least. I wondered if you would outgrow the container. Lol.

Awesome experiment though. I just would abort the outdoor sip till I could build a sip bed.

Humanrob said:

I'm finding that my SIP experiment has challenges. When I saw how quickly the plants grew it worried me, and now my concerns are being realized. "Normally", you can put a plant out in a 10 gallon pot, it will find its limits, and with periodic top feeding you and the plant can maintain a balance of its size and its needs. It seems that SIPs boost growth, and it appears that with the "ultimate lighting" the plants are out-growing their pots and the nutes that I originally put into the soil. The leaves are starting to fade and become pale. I think the plant is now like a big fish in a small tank.

I'm going to start to top feed, which is not the standard SIP recommendation (based on the advice of SIP manufacturers). I'll do limited top watering, trying not to water enough that I wash the nutes into the res.

Other than that, I'm wondering about trimming techniques? Would physically making the plant smaller diminish its need for nutrients? I have no issues with quantity, I would rather have small healthy plants with quality bud than large plants that are straining to hold it together. What I don't know is if I can do a fairly intense trim/cut of the plant, and how it would recover? I'm assuming that if that is a known technique, I'd want to do that before it goes into flower...?

This is all a big experiment, I have no problem trying different strategies and seeing what works.

Click to expand...

My grow system is too good, my MJ is outgrowing itself! Youre having luxury problems, Rob

Ive done top feeding with my plants, not mj, but generally good results, just dont give them enough water for it to flush out in the sip. Maybe several smaller waterings/feedings. Only one plant took badly to it with gunky res but mine are a lot easier to clean, not buried the res. What about the long lasting spike nutes? And if you think its the perfect light, just try giving them some shade.

I reckon key to get sips working out alright is to be able to remove plants from res so u can top feed them, just in case.

And if they are growing so vigorously they should be alright to move and manhandle a bit for top feeding outside of the res, just pop them in another bucket, feed them and get them back. Dont give up hope on them, they seem to be very happy albeit hungry plants.

Also maybe a photo of that wild and hungry cannopy?

SomeGuy said:

Rob. I would pull them from the sips and just plant the bottom wick straight in the soil. This will mitigate all of the nutrient issues at least. I wondered if you would outgrow the container. Lol.

Awesome experiment though. I just would abort the outdoor sip till I could build a sip bed.

Click to expand...

That would be a pretty funny irony! In the spring when I made my summer "plan" I decided not to put any plants in the ground this year, all in pots. Then I had three in a bad soil mix (not in sips), so the best option was to transplant them into the ground. Now the SIPs are outgrowing their pots... same solution? LOL!!! So much for planning, by August all my plants might be in the ground...

I think I'm going to try and top feed them and hold off until the ones from seed show their sex. Once I know who I'm keeping and who I'm getting rid of, I'll see about putting them in the ground. Good suggestion though, thanks SomeGuy.

Rocket Soul said:

My grow system is too good, my MJ is outgrowing itself! Youre having luxury problems, Rob

Ive done top feeding with my plants, not mj, but generally good results, just dont give them enough water for it to flush out in the sip. Maybe several smaller waterings/feedings. Only one plant took badly to it with gunky res but mine are a lot easier to clean, not buried the res. What about the long lasting spike nutes? And if you think its the perfect light, just try giving them some shade.

I reckon key to get sips working out alright is to be able to remove plants from res so u can top feed them, just in case.

And if they are growing so vigorously they should be alright to move and manhandle a bit for top feeding outside of the res, just pop them in another bucket, feed them and get them back. Dont give up hope on them, they seem to be very happy albeit hungry plants.

Click to expand...

I'm thinking something similar, but they are too big/heavy/awkward to lift off for top feedings, so I'll just water lightly.

SomeGuy said:

I just would abort the outdoor sip till I could build a sip bed.

Click to expand...

I have 9 months to come up with a design... but I'm pondering ideas around 55 gallon drums, under ground, on their sides... with 100 gallon cloth pots over them... (and possibly sump pumps in the tanks to drain and refill if/as needed). If possible I'd like to do two that way in a greenhouse.... but now I'm really dreaming.

For now I have to adapt to the situation at hand. But like Rocket Soul said, good problems to have.

Humanrob said:

I have 9 months to come up with a design... but I'm pondering ideas around 55 gallon drums, under ground, on their sides... with 100 gallon cloth pots over them... (and possibly sump pumps in the tanks to drain and refill if/as needed). If possible I'd like to do two that way in a greenhouse.... but now I'm really dreaming.

For now I have to adapt to the situation at hand. But like Rocket Soul said, good problems to have.

Click to expand...

You would still have the same problem as now, how to top feed without removing plant from on top of res. I was thinking: a bit of carpentry so u get like a gardenbed/stand kind of thing where u setup ur smart pots on top. Underneath, covered and shaded from the sun, one small but wide res for each plant, that is still removeable from underneath. Above ground. Maybe propped up on a brick or similar to get you clearance to remove the ress for top feeding. Then one of these "medusa" pumps (not sure what u call it in english) which has about 15 watering hoses that waters the same, setup with automatic watering schedule.

Personally the quality i like with the sip is that it mimicks groundwater for better drinking. The thing of not having to water so often is great, but big res has drawback when comes to o2, and the possibility of something growing in the res. If its small and accesible, with some kind of auto top up system i think u avoid problems and also leave you more and better options if u hit a snag.

Rocket Soul said:

You would still have the same problem as now, how to top feed without removing plant from on top of res. I was thinking: a bit of carpentry so u get like a gardenbed/stand kind of thing where u setup ur smart pots on top. Underneath, covered and shaded from the sun, one small but wide res for each plant, that is still removeable from underneath. Above ground. Maybe propped up on a brick or similar to get you clearance to remove the ress for top feeding. Then one of these "medusa" pumps (not sure what u call it in english) which has about 15 watering hoses that waters the same, setup with automatic watering schedule.

Personally the quality i like with the sip is that it mimicks groundwater for better drinking. The thing of not having to water so often is great, but big res has drawback when comes to o2, and the possibility of something growing in the res. If its small and accesible, with some kind of auto top up system i think u avoid problems and also leave you more and better options if u hit a snag.

Click to expand...

I think to some degree you are right about same issues, different scale if I all I do is go bigger. One plant in a 100 gallon pot would leave me a lot of room for a dry nute "trench", like Earthbox describes in their instructions. I could put a huge amount of nutes in there at the outset... I don't know if that presents its own issues. I'm considering other approaches too.

In terms of the res size, I haven't researched it but I've read about float valves that will automatically turn the water on when the float lowers and shut it off when it reaches a preset height. It's possible to connect multiple res's to one pump/valve system, but that's easier to do indoors because everything is (theoretically) level. The great thing is the res's don't need to be as big, because smaller (or shallower) container will refill as needed. As you were saying, less water will most likely have less issues.

We shifted things in the garden again and I had to move another SIP, so I got to look for roots... none. Put into the SIP on May 14th, large big happy plant overall, but no roots showing popping out of the wick. I might have to get a pH meter, I'm wondering if my water is off.

Humanrob said:

Other than that, I'm wondering about trimming techniques? Would physically making the plant smaller diminish its need for nutrients? I have no issues with quantity, I would rather have small healthy plants with quality bud than large plants that are straining to hold it together. What I don't know is if I can do a fairly intense trim/cut of the plant, and how it would recover? I'm assuming that if that is a known technique, I'd want to do that before it goes into flower...?

This is all a big experiment, I have no problem trying different strategies and seeing what works.

Click to expand...

Last year I was watching Sub Cool's Weed Nerd videos on You Tube. His friend Dave from the Garden of Weeden took a hedge trimmer to his Tunnel of Cheese when it got too tall. They came back just fine, just a little shorter.

Larry {the} Gardener said:

Last year I was watching Sub Cool's Weed Nerd videos on You Tube. His friend Dave from the Garden of Weeden took a hedge trimmer to his Tunnel of Cheese when it got too tall. They came back just fine, just a little shorter.

Click to expand...

That's good to know! I once did something like that with an indoor -- long story but poor planning led to plants vegging for a couple of months and then the only space I had to flower them in was only 5' tall, so I cut them in half and then folded what was left under a low scrog. In the end, I had a lot of very small buds off of thin little secondary branches, since I had cut all the main ones off. They can often survive a surprising amount of abuse, but you pay a price. I'll have to figure out which end I'm willing to make the sacrifice at.

Humanrob said:

That's good to know! I once did something like that with an indoor -- long story but poor planning led to plants vegging for a couple of months and then the only space I had to flower them in was only 5' tall, so I cut them in half and then folded what was left under a low scrog. In the end, I had a lot of very small buds off of thin little secondary branches, since I had cut all the main ones off. They can often survive a surprising amount of abuse, but you pay a price. I'll have to figure out which end I'm willing to make the sacrifice at.

Click to expand...

I think part of what Dave was doing was that last topping before flower. He was just tired of doing it by hand. He only cut off a couple three inches, so the buds would be smaller, but more of them.

The experimenting continues with the LSD in the SIP... blindly, but whatever. It looks like at least four of the six from seed are girls, and with the four from clones, we have plenty, so if this doesn't work out I'm not worried. SomeGuy gave a great suggestion to pull the pot and the wick from the SIP and put it right into the soil. I decided to try something else, possibly a less intelligent solution. I buried the whole SIP. I know that every other day I can put two gallons in it without flooding it... so theoretically that's what I'll do.

What is not pictured is that I cut away the cloth pot after placing it over the res in the ground. When I did that, I noticed the soil was really dry. I think cloth pots in an outdoor SIP is a mistake. The plant was not wilting because it got its water from the SIP, but with dry soil it was not getting the nutes it needed since they are in the soil not the water.

Plant as it was, and then resting in another bucket with its bucket sitting next to it.


The res in a deeper hole, and then the plant situated back on top of it


After the pot was cut away, with fresh soil, mycorrhiza, dry nutes...


It was heading down hill, hopefully this will work out better for it. I'll let you know.

Hi, Humanrob
Great experiment, plants look great

oragrow said:

Hi, Humanrob
Great experiment, plants look great

Click to expand...

Thanks. V2.0 next year will be better. I'm learning a lot.

Today I tried moving one (that wasn't doing well) out of its SIP. As in, attempted to transplant it as I would any plant I was up-potting from a 10 gallon to a 20 gallon pot. It didn't go as smoothly as I had hoped, but about as well as I expected. I lost a lot of roots that were in the wick. I did it a half dozen hours ago... so far she looks OK. I'll see what she looks like tomorrow morning.

So now I'm down from 5 to 3 still in SIPs. Two are in 5 gallon plastic pots that I can't cut away, so they're stuck where they are. The GG#4 is still in a 10 gallon cloth pot SIP, but it looks OK, so I might leave it be. I'm going to top water them more, and see if that helps activate the dry nutes.

My back is sore, thinking of humping those plants around. Did you loose more than 50% of the roots? If not, I doubt she'll skip a beat. Root pruning encourages more growth. Did you ever see a wholesale tree nursery ball & bag trees? They remove quite a lot of root mass; and properly care for, the trees do fine.

WV: Jetson said:

My back is sore, thinking of humping those plants around. Did you loose more than 50% of the roots? If not, I doubt she'll skip a beat. Root pruning encourages more growth. Did you ever see a wholesale tree nursery ball & bag trees? They remove quite a lot of root mass; and properly care for, the trees do fine.

Click to expand...

It would be hard to gauge what percentage of the roots were lost, but if I had to guess I'd say 20-25%? The wick was packed with tons of very small roots. There were also a bunch of larger roots that were spiraled around the bottom of the cloth pot -- on the outside, between the pot and the tray I had above the lid. I cut the bottom of the pot off with a utility knife as carefully as I could, and I believe that all of those roots stayed intact. This morning, she looks exactly like she did yesterday, other than somehow I managed to transplant her with quite a lean. I have her leaning south at least. Resilient buggers, they are.

Trouble shooting a problem... The two I have in the smallest containers -- 5 gallon pots with about 1.5 gallons in the res -- are having an issue. They were from clones, so they had white pistols (hopefully I'm using the correct term) forming for a while, the problem is that a lot of the pistols have turned brown and withered.

These plants have struggled a bit with nutes so I've tried various ways to get more too them. Mostly I've stuck with dry time release in the soil, but when the Rugdawg was getting really pale it looked like a N deficiency so I put a small amount of GH Gro in the soil and the res... That's the only thing these two received that none of the others have.

One problem I'm having is that I recently got back from a doctors appointment where I had cortisone shots in both hands, and I don't have the grip to pull the pot out of the res to dump and flush the res. It will be a couple of weeks before I can give that a try. Until then... just wondering if anyone has experienced this before? Is there a known cause or is this one of those "could be a lot of things" issues?

Thanks!

brown (dead?) pistols

full shot of the Rugdawg

full shot of the Bruce Banner #3