nuclear weaponry

i still disagree with that. he perceived that he needed to make a preemptive strike, falsely.
he even, indirectly, created the soviet generals and officer corps that chased the whermacht from stalingrad to berlin, by creating the early victories that in turn caused stalin to execute the commanding officers of the red army that allowed any retreat on soviet soil. when you put an officer in a situation where whether or not he is executed summarily and his family banished to the gulag, or he lives to fight the next battle and face the same dilemma again, only the very best will survive, for obvious reasons.
yamamoto correctly predicted 'i fear we have awakened a sleeping dragon'; and hitler awakened an sleeping bear when he put the go ahead on operation barbosa, the soviet army had never fought a successful offensive campaign on its own (barring internal conflicts) up untill the turning point of stalingrad... if hitler had instead taken up a defensive posture in the east as he did with 'fortress europe' in the west, he would have had greatly altered the course of the war.
the entire affair has epic fail written all over it, and whats even funnier about that is how napoleon had already made the same mistake, and since many compared hitler to napoleon (in 1941 anyways) i often wondered if hitler did the entire thing just to try and prove that he could succeed where napoleon had failed. he truly was a madman, and a poor tactician.

im hungry now

doc111 said:

Who pissed in your Cheerios? Damn dude! I was specifically speaking about you asking him not to be insulting and then calling him a Nazi. I've read every post in the thread. I am as aware as anybody else on the planet what the conversation was about. I read plenty of CJ's posts. I agree with some, disagree with others. We have a friendly debate about it, no insults or anything! Whenever YOU have a conversation with him, however, it's nothing but insults, mainly coming from you! If I had posted "Hey abe, how about you not be a douche." and in the next couple of sentences I ask you not to be insulting...........ya see now? I was politely pointing out the hypocrasy of your post. You'd have done the same thing and you know it.

Meh, I don't even know why I'M bothering.

Click to expand...

Sorry, I went a little overboard there. But I'm frustrated because this happens with every thread and kind of takes the fun out of having reasonable discussions about things with rational people. And then you wander in your only observation is that I'm calling the kettle black...? Like I said, I've sort of reached the point where I don't want to be reasonable anymore either because the only thing that gets you is more stupidity and even less substance. So yeah....sorry, buddy. My family suffered terribly during world war 2 so I kind of take it personally when someone insinuates that 50 million people lost their lives for no reason because nazis and communist were essentially the same. Again, when I bring facts like the spanish civil war or politics in the weimar republic, which totally contradict his claim, he just ignores them.

CJ, of course our understanding of history changes. But we think of the 30s and 40s as the totalitarian era because massive centralized government was popular at the time among both the left and the right. It's completely bogus to say that that makes fascist and communist ideology the same.

And your little quote is from stalin I would imagine. Everyone knew the nazi-soviet pact was a joke, including hitler and stalin. You know why....? Because nazi fascism and soviet communism were at odds ideologically.

abe23 said:

Sorry, I went a little overboard there. But I'm frustrated because this happens with every thread and kind of takes the fun out of having reasonable discussions about things with rational people. And then you wander in your only observation is that I'm calling the kettle black...? Like I said, I've sort of reached the point where I don't want to be reasonable anymore either because the only thing that gets you is more stupidity and even less substance. So yeah....sorry, buddy. My family suffered terribly during world war 2 so I kind of take it personally when someone insinuates that 50 million people lost their lives for no reason because nazis and communist were essentially the same. Again, when I bring facts like the spanish civil war or politics in the weimar republic, which totally contradict his claim, he just ignores them.

CJ, of course our understanding of history changes. But we think of the 30s and 40s as the totalitarian era because massive centralized government was popular at the time among both the left and the right. It's completely bogus to say that that makes fascist and communist ideology the same.

And your little quote is from stalin I would imagine. Everyone knew the nazi-soviet pact was a joke, including hitler and stalin. You know why....? Because nazi fascism and soviet communism were at odds ideologically.

Click to expand...

It's a forum bro. No need for hate. We exchange ideas and maybe teach each other something once in a while. Not everyone agrees nor should they. How boring would that be? Don't let this shit get you that worked up. Stress will kill you quicker than eating McDonalds fries and Big Macs for every meal. Now go smoke a bowl and relax.....doctor's orders.

Sorry Abe ... but Hitler and Stalin thought it was a joke? Want to put up some quotes like I did?

It is quite clear that Stalin was the one who was breaking the deal, not Hitler. Like I said before, Hitler was evil, but certainly not an idiot. No one opens up a two front war if they can help it. The Soviets were amassing their armies near their border..... and Hitler knew this. He had to respond.

I don't blame you for not knowing this.... few do.

it is 100% accurate however.

P.S. yes, it was Stalin.

abe23 said:

CrackerJax.....I give up. You win. You are the king of the retards. YAY....

If the only thing you have to back up your bullshit historical revisionism is "i'm smarter than you and I know more..." then I'm through discussing this with you. I asked you to explain a number of historical events with regard to your made-up bullshit, but you can't. Is that also because you know so much?

The fact of the matter is that you try to distort historical fact, not because the facts point you that way, but because you want to make a point about contemporary politics....ie. that anyone who espouses left of center ideas is somehow the ideological offspring of the nazis. Frankly....between your braindead nationalism, your love of all things violent and militaristic and your your smug sense of superiority , you seem like you would have made an outstanding nazi. Just saying....

Try to answer some of the questions i asked you in my last post, instead of launching another storm of meaningless platitudes, generalities and insults. 90% of your posts are just filler....you really don't have much to say, but you say it over and over again. Arrogance and ignorance can make for a pretty interesting combo...

Click to expand...

abe23 said:

Huh....?

You seem to have misunderstood my gripe with CJ, doc. I'm asking him to respond to my questions instead of talking beside the point and not saying anything meaningful. That's all. We all insult each-other from time to time and speak in generalities. What bothers me about CJ is that he presents his own version of history, doesn't back it up with any actual information (or very little) and responds to any substantive question about it by belittling your education and intelligence. I've had this discussion with him numerous times and I usually make my point without being uncivil towards him....

Click to expand...

abe23 said:

Dude, sorry but you wander into a discussion i'm having specifically with him and without knowing the context accuse me of being a hypocrite...?

I'm happy to admit when I'm wrong. Go back and look what happened in this thread because it's exactly what happens every time. He makes up some weird revisionist bullshit history that doesn't square with the facts. People call him out on it because it's bullshit and confront him with facts. He ignores the facts and tells everyone to stay in school and talks down to them. The same thing happened to thread about israel and a whole bunch more.

Did you listen to the dude's story? So you have no frame of reference here, Donny. You're like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know...

I'm happy to have reasonable discussions about things when i disagree with people like yourself who are willing to have reasonable discussions about things. But there's no point if this happens in every thread.

I don't even why I'm bothering....meh.

Click to expand...

Abe FTW!

We cannot in any way evade the final battle between German race ideals and pan-Slav mass ideals. Here yawns the eternal abyss which no political interests can bridge. We must win the victory of German race-consciousness over the masses eternally fated to serve and obey. We alone can conquer the great continental space, and it will be done by us singly and alone, not through a pact with Moscow. We shall take this struggle upon us. It would open to us the door to permanent mastery of the world. That doesn't mean that I will refuse to walk part of the road with the Russians, if that will help us. But it will be only in order to return the more swiftly to our true aims.
—Adolf Hitler (1934)

Thanks for the cheerleading, padawan. And thanks CJ for toning down the BS....

The notion of 'lebensraum' towards the east was very popular in germany long before the war even started. The nazi vision was to colonize the russian step with germans and slowly kill the population with starvation and forced labor.

Since you're interested in this stuff, you should really give this book a read, CJ...war of the world by niall ferguson

"The world at the beginning of the 20th century seemed for most of its inhabitants stable and relatively benign. Globalizing, booming economies married to technological breakthroughs seemed to promise a better world for most people. Instead, the 20th century proved to be overwhelmingly the most violent, frightening and brutalized in history with fanatical, often genocidal warfare engulfing most societies between the outbreak of the First World War and the end of the Cold War. What went wrong? How did we do this to ourselves? The War of the World comes up with compelling, fascinating answers. It is Niall Ferguson's masterpiece."

really good stuff...

the BS with CJ just got another thread closed.

what a hero.