nuclear weaponry

Did Hitler turn on Russia? That's the "accepted" history, but not entirely accurate. The Soviet Union was considered an outlaw state in the 1930's, and very weak militarily. Hitler promised they could stay neutral, and they could take back Poland, which was theirs originally.

But did Hitler break the deal really? Or did he see that the Russians were actually using the alliance to bide time, amass an army and watch as all of the European powers, including Germany spent themselves in battle, only to have the Russian army mobilize and take over....for peace .

Stalin was FURIOUS that France had fallen so quickly, and that Britain was certain to either fall or cut a deal..... it looked like the war would not be protracted, and Germany would be the new Kingpin of the continent. Stalin started to amass troops along his border....and Hitler knew it. Hitler knew that Stalin was going to attack HIS rear, and responded. Historians have always wondered and commented that if Hitler had not invaded Russia, he would have easily won in the west. It is inconceivable that Germany did not realize this. Hitler attacked because he HAD to. It wasn't his choice. He wanted no war with the Communists....just a treaty and resources...paid for resources. The nickel mines in Finland was the first warning to Hitler that all was not right to his rear.

Dig a little deeper, and the truth emerges. Hitler wasn't crazy....just evil.

he was crazy by running a summer offensive into winter... move of a fool.
as well as the germans fought offensively, they were devasting in there defensive tactics as well.
hitler would have done much better to tie down stalins divisions untill wintertime,when the extended supply lines of the reds would have been extremely vulnerable; and then do a flanking manouver from the north out of poland to decimate the russians supply lines/lane of retreat and then attacking there lines from the rear.
hitler may have been a great motivator, but he didnt understand tactics at the campaign level. if he had left tactical command in the hand of his general staff as stalin allowed his generals, things could have been drastically different. however hitler was greedy and wanted access to the vast resources of the soviet union, so he pushed his troops farther than logic dictates, there supply lines became overextended and vulnerable to attack, winter moved in and half a million of germany's best troops were isolated behind enemy lines, in summer uniforms with light equipment, and thousands of miles from any serious ground support. imagine what it would have been like if germany stayed on the defensive in the east, and kept her battle reserves up instead of wasting them on a hopeless campaign... the battle for western europe would have been vastly different.

Again, it was either attack or be attacked. It wasn't a choice. It wasn't planned too far in advance. Hitler did intend on beating Europe and never gave an indication of back stabbing Russia....it was the other way around...

Hind sight is great too. you have to remember they didn't have near whats around today to draw form for intell.

so yeah... nukes.

so I'm just wondering if any are old enough to remember air raid drills at school. just a few year ago they remodled my old jr high and took out the bomb shelters. I'm thinking they should have left them in.

I see....so stalin prepared for a takeover of europe by purging his entire general staff? Also, wouldn't the red army have been able to put up a better fight in the summer of '41 there were any truth to what you're saying...?

The facts don't square up with your revisionist history. The molotov-ribbentrop pact wasn't based on ideology, but rather some very cynical pragmatism on the part of both hitler and stalin. Also, for the fiftieth millionth time, can you explain why hitler supported franco while the soviets supported the republican government during the spanish civil war if everyone's ideology was basically the same? There are indeed similarities between the third reich and the ussr and many historians have written about that. Both were totalitarian in that they attempted to control society as a whole by means of a strong state. Both shared a certain populism and asked the people to make sacrifices on behalf of the 'cause'. And both came into being around the same time as the modern state and looked at ways to use it for the greater good. But those similarities are only in the practical aspects; to say that somehow they are similar ideologically is flat out wrong. Throughout the 1930s during the weimar republic in germany, nazis and communists would beat each other to death in the streets. When hitler came into power, one of his first actions was to lock up communists, social-democrats, trade unionists, anarchists etc. Was this because he liked their politics?

If you actually want to have a debate about this, that's fine but you spend more time being an asshole to people and repeating 'stay in skool' (which was never particularly funny to begin with...) than you do responding to anyone's comments.

Who said this?

It must be our objective that Germany wage war long enough to exhaust England and France so much that they cannot defeat Germany alone....
Should Germany win, it will itself be so weakened that it won't be able to wage war against us for 10 years.... It's paramount for us that this war continues as long as possible, until both sides are worn out.

August 19th 1939

I just know my history...better than you. I dig deeper and mine better data.

You shouldn't always act surprised.

that there be dang ole dung joseph stalin, yissir, stalin hiself.
closed session speech

Mmm... rep for you...

The Russians guard their archives like gold...but the truth has squeaked out....and eventually, the real history and perspective of why Hitler DEFENDED himself will come out. So far, all of the bits and pieces are assembling to show that Hitler did not attack Russia mindlessly..... he had to.

CrackerJax.....I give up. You win. You are the king of the retards. YAY....

If the only thing you have to back up your bullshit historical revisionism is "i'm smarter than you and I know more..." then I'm through discussing this with you. I asked you to explain a number of historical events with regard to your made-up bullshit, but you can't. Is that also because you know so much?

The fact of the matter is that you try to distort historical fact, not because the facts point you that way, but because you want to make a point about contemporary politics....ie. that anyone who espouses left of center ideas is somehow the ideological offspring of the nazis. Frankly....between your braindead nationalism, your love of all things violent and militaristic and your your smug sense of superiority , you seem like you would have made an outstanding nazi. Just saying....

Try to answer some of the questions i asked you in my last post, instead of launching another storm of meaningless platitudes, generalities and insults. 90% of your posts are just filler....you really don't have much to say, but you say it over and over again. Arrogance and ignorance can make for a pretty interesting combo...

abe23 said:

CrackerJax.....I give up. You win. You are the king of the retards. YAY....

If the only thing you have to back up your bullshit historical revisionism is "i'm smarter than you and I know more..." then I'm through discussing this with you. I asked you to explain a number of historical events with regard to your made-up bullshit, but you can't. Is that also because you know so much?

The fact of the matter is that you try to distort historical fact, not because the facts point you that way, but because you want to make a point about contemporary politics....ie. that anyone who espouses left of center ideas is somehow the ideological offspring of the nazis. Frankly....between your braindead nationalism, your love of all things violent and militaristic and your your smug sense of superiority , you seem like you would have made an outstanding nazi. Just saying....

Try to answer some of the questions i asked you in my last post, instead of launching another storm of meaningless platitudes, generalities and insults. 90% of your posts are just filler....you really don't have much to say, but you say it over and over again. Arrogance and ignorance can make for a pretty interesting combo...

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abe, how can anybody take anything you say seriously when you do the exact same shit you ask others not to do? That's called the pot calling the kettle black..............just saying.

Huh....?

You seem to have misunderstood my gripe with CJ, doc. I'm asking him to respond to my questions instead of talking beside the point and not saying anything meaningful. That's all. We all insult each-other from time to time and speak in generalities. What bothers me about CJ is that he presents his own version of history, doesn't back it up with any actual information (or very little) and responds to any substantive question about it by belittling your education and intelligence. I've had this discussion with him numerous times and I usually make my point without being uncivil towards him....

abe23 said:

Huh....?

You seem to have misunderstood my gripe with CJ, doc. I'm asking him to respond to my questions instead of talking beside the point and not saying anything meaningful. That's all. We all insult each-other from time to time and speak in generalities. What bothers me about CJ is that he presents his own version of history, doesn't back it up with any actual information (or very little) and responds to any substantive question about it by belittling your education and intelligence. I've had this discussion with him numerous times and I usually make my point without being uncivil towards him....

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CrackerJax needs special attention

Like many others who only use the right side of their brains

You have to talk especially slowly or he takes it as disrespect towards his intelligence

And even when he knows he is wrong

www.rexcurry.net is one only one click away - for a little "data mining"

abe23 said:

Huh....?

You seem to have misunderstood my gripe with CJ, doc. I'm asking him to respond to my questions instead of talking beside the point and not saying anything meaningful. That's all. We all insult each-other from time to time and speak in generalities. What bothers me about CJ is that he presents his own version of history, doesn't back it up with any actual information (or very little) and responds to any substantive question about it by belittling your education and intelligence. I've had this discussion with him numerous times and I usually make my point without being uncivil towards him....

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I understand that we all get a little uptight from time to time. We all tend to be hypocrites at some point. Perhaps I did misunderstand your point but you were asking him not to be insulting and in the same breath you insulted him. I am guilty of being a prick at times (just ask my wife) but I personally prefer a civil exchange in favor of shit slinging and hating. We've got enough haters and I like to think that even though we may disagree on some key issues we all want pretty much the same thing. I feel very passionate about my political views and I sometimes don't understand the thinking of liberals. We tend to de-humanize what we don't understand or disagree with. I firmly believe this to be the major obstacle to true progress and meaningful change. I want change in the healthcare system, for example, but I believe Obamacare will do more damage than good. I would support it if I thought it was going to have more benefit than harm. Libertarians, republicans, democrats, we all want what's best. We just don't agree how to acheive it.

I can't speak for CJ but I hope he has compassion. I hope he wants what's best for the country. He may be a little arrogant but I don't see him being as blatantly insulting as a lot of the folks who attack him. Being able to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip is a true gift. I wish I had it.

Have any of you read "The Butter Battle Book" by Dr. Seuss? It gives a clear understanding about the reason for a nuclear program here in the U.S. It also gives a clear understanding about the reason why the socialists of the world started to infiltrate the U.S. school systems shortly after WWII.

Dude, sorry but you wander into a discussion i'm having specifically with him and without knowing the context accuse me of being a hypocrite...?

I'm happy to admit when I'm wrong. Go back and look what happened in this thread because it's exactly what happens every time. He makes up some weird revisionist bullshit history that doesn't square with the facts. People call him out on it because it's bullshit and confront him with facts. He ignores the facts and tells everyone to stay in school and talks down to them. The same thing happened to thread about israel and a whole bunch more.

Did you listen to the dude's story? So you have no frame of reference here, Donny. You're like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know...

I'm happy to have reasonable discussions about things when i disagree with people like yourself who are willing to have reasonable discussions about things. But there's no point if this happens in every thread.

I don't even why I'm bothering....meh.

if someone has a nuclear bomb, yet there is an agreement not to ever use it, then what the hell is the point?



ARMED AND READY!!!!



[video=youtube;dKie0RqLgOY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKie0RqLgOY[/video]

abe23 said:

Dude, sorry but you wander into a discussion i'm having specifically with him and without knowing the context accuse me of being a hypocrite...?

I'm happy to admit when I'm wrong. Go back and look what happened in this thread because it's exactly what happens every time. He makes up some weird revisionist bullshit history that doesn't square with the facts. People call him out on it because it's bullshit and confront him with facts. He ignores the facts and tells everyone to stay in school and talks down to them. The same thing happened to thread about israel and a whole bunch more.

Did you listen to the dude's story? So you have no frame of reference here, Donny. You're like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know...

I'm happy to have reasonable discussions about things when i disagree with people like yourself who are willing to have reasonable discussions about things. But there's no point if this happens in every thread.

I don't even why I'm bothering....meh.

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Who pissed in your Cheerios? Damn dude! I was specifically speaking about you asking him not to be insulting and then calling him a Nazi. I've read every post in the thread. I am as aware as anybody else on the planet what the conversation was about. I read plenty of CJ's posts. I agree with some, disagree with others. We have a friendly debate about it, no insults or anything! Whenever YOU have a conversation with him, however, it's nothing but insults, mainly coming from you! If I had posted "Hey abe, how about you not be a douche." and in the next couple of sentences I ask you not to be insulting...........ya see now? I was politely pointing out the hypocrasy of your post. You'd have done the same thing and you know it.

Meh, I don't even know why I'M bothering.

History is always under revision.

As the Russians occasionally only NOW are starting to allow a trickling of classified documents to emerge on WW2 ... or anything else for that matter.... history is being revised.

Who said this?

For us, the war plans are ready... In the course of the next two months we can begin the struggle AGAINST Germany. It may SURPRISE you that I'm telling you of our war plans, but it has to be. We must take this step for our own protection and take revenge for Bulgaria and Finland. There is a peace treaty with Germany, but that's just an illusion, a curtain behind which we can work.