Airwalker16
Well-Known Member
You got that right. Spectrums part of it too though. I want that geek beast spectrum
Lukios Secret Garden pt II
- Thread starter lukio
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lukio
Well-Known Member
ive never been a big believer. IMO, flat white smashes it and the UV guys are living in placebo land. NO way they can tell without a lab test. People chasing the suns spectrum dont even smoke outdoor weed...weird.
Rocket Soul
Well-Known Member
I think having a bit of blue and uv on tap seems like a good thing, help sort u out when you cant get your plant to pray/transpire.
lukio
Well-Known Member
hmmm you reckon? i think the praying is more food related...its another subject nobody has gotten to the bottom of!
my environment can be the same all week but only when i adjust food do they pray/not pray
Rocket Soul
Well-Known Member
I think proper erect leaves is a sign of solid transpiration, which seems to depend on various things but one main driver is stomata aperture, which in turn depends on metabolism, climate, Co2 levels and levels of blue and uv. Ive followed grows where that shitty led bleachy posture with starting clorosis has been sorted out by giving a bit of blue/uv. Blues and violets around 420, together with uv 360 and 280 are peaks in the stomata aperture action spectrum.
Your experience of praying due to increased or decreased or just altered nutes? Maybe getting nutes just right will trigger higher metabolism or something.
But i do recommend doing a google on "stomata aperture action spectrum" there are a few nice papers with graphs and stuff. You know me i like to nerd these things. One of these articles cleared out why our veg gone so shite, plants pussying out on low light levels even though everything was hot and humid enough, shitty and hanging and bleachy looking. Thing was the gas heater, the high amount of co2 got the stomata closed and no drinking, no nutes no posture.
Stephenj37826
Well-Known Member
It has to be nutrients too. Try optic foilar spray. They will pray every time. Another foilar that causes them to pray is liquid light by Dutch master. Just an observation. I also agree blue forces stomata to open. Hence we went slightly cooler on the 650R/QB648+......
lukio
Well-Known Member
yeah interesting! tis probs deffo an accumulation of a few different desired parameters. were you in a closed room? Ive never once measured Co2...maybe i should.
So in my garden if im looking at a plant and its sagging a bit... then my fix is to drop EC and 9 out of 10 times it fixes the sagging and perks up. That or its over watered. My grows have nearly always been mid 80s and RH mid 50s to maybe low 60s.
I was under the impression that “praying “ leaves are a sign of photo saturation ( light stress ) .
Leaves erect in such way ,
in order to decrease their available surface to incident light ,for protecting
the stressed light harvesting systems.
www.frontiersin.org
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/11956860.1997.11682429
link.springer.com
www.frontiersin.org
Leaves erect in such way ,
in order to decrease their available surface to incident light ,for protecting
the stressed light harvesting systems.
Frontiers | The Influence of Light Intensity and Leaf Movement on Photosynthesis Characteristics and Carbon Balance of Soybean
In intercropping systems shading conditions significantly impair the seed yield and quality of soybean, and rarely someone investigated the minimum amount of...
www.frontiersin.org
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/11956860.1997.11682429
Leaf absorptance and leaf angle: mechanisms for stress avoidance
Leaf angle and leaf absorptance are two leaf parameters that link a leaf and its physical environment. These characters affect both the amount of solar radiation incident on a leaf and the fraction of that incident light which is actually absorbed. Differences in...
Frontiers | The Influence of Light Intensity and Leaf Movement on Photosynthesis Characteristics and Carbon Balance of Soybean
In intercropping systems shading conditions significantly impair the seed yield and quality of soybean, and rarely someone investigated the minimum amount of...
www.frontiersin.org
Rocket Soul
Well-Known Member
That makes a lot of sense though, if your on high ec, your high on salts in the solution. Salts attracts water and can suck water out of the plant which means the opposite of transpiration. Its an interesting observation and trick.
Praying: i think theres a difference between leaves straight up for photo saturation and another just general erect stance of happy and drinking plants. One is a happy looking praying while the first looks a bit weird.
I saw that too. They look gorgeous and i love the diode count. Any news on the spectrum board?
Cannademik
Active Member
How many plants did you need to get 104 cuttings?
lukio
Well-Known Member
yo ive heard that before, man...i dont believe it one bit lol! im no plant whisperer but ive always felt theyre happy when praying. I havent read the links but will this eve cheers.I was under the impression that “praying “ leaves are a sign of photo saturation ( light stress ) .
Leaves erect in such way ,
in order to decrease their available surface to incident light ,for protecting
the stressed light harvesting systems.
Frontiers | The Influence of Light Intensity and Leaf Movement on Photosynthesis Characteristics and Carbon Balance of Soybean
In intercropping systems shading conditions significantly impair the seed yield and quality of soybean, and rarely someone investigated the minimum amount of...
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/11956860.1997.11682429
Leaf absorptance and leaf angle: mechanisms for stress avoidance
Leaf angle and leaf absorptance are two leaf parameters that link a leaf and its physical environment. These characters affect both the amount of solar radiation incident on a leaf and the fraction of that incident light which is actually absorbed. Differences in...
Frontiers | The Influence of Light Intensity and Leaf Movement on Photosynthesis Characteristics and Carbon Balance of Soybean
In intercropping systems shading conditions significantly impair the seed yield and quality of soybean, and rarely someone investigated the minimum amount of...
ive never thought about it like that!
i dont remember cause this is kind of an old diary ...but probs a few plants man
end_of_the_tunnel
Well-Known Member
For some people (aka greybeards) outdoors was all they could smoke. Happy weed. Indoors was barely a twinkle on the horizon. I think you are right when you say flat white smashes it. But we cannot discount the potential, that enhancing a flat white spectrum could offer. Plants have mechanisms and receptors, why not use those to try manipulate outcome? Maybe there is or maybe there isn't some element of placebo effect occuring. I do know I would like to be able to try manipulate stretch for starters. With the potential choice in leds, shouldn't we be trying to push the plants buttons? We are already doing it when we flower with flat white. Smelly sticky fast. Can we get more?
Maybe both of you are right. Perhaps there are several factors coming into play. Outdoors under intense sun, droopy plants perk up with a watering. Do not remember seeing them praying hard like indoor examples can. Think there is a lot more blue outdoors.
I think there was a response in cobshopgrows thread. The poster responded to my comment that plants looked happy with leaves praying, by pointing out similar to what you post above. Guy said he was a plant biologist or botanist.I was under the impression that “praying “ leaves are a sign of photo saturation ( light stress ) .
Leaves erect in such way ,
in order to decrease their available surface to incident light ,for protecting
the stressed light harvesting systems.
Frontiers | The Influence of Light Intensity and Leaf Movement on Photosynthesis Characteristics and Carbon Balance of Soybean
In intercropping systems shading conditions significantly impair the seed yield and quality of soybean, and rarely someone investigated the minimum amount of...
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/11956860.1997.11682429
Leaf absorptance and leaf angle: mechanisms for stress avoidance
Leaf angle and leaf absorptance are two leaf parameters that link a leaf and its physical environment. These characters affect both the amount of solar radiation incident on a leaf and the fraction of that incident light which is actually absorbed. Differences in...
Frontiers | The Influence of Light Intensity and Leaf Movement on Photosynthesis Characteristics and Carbon Balance of Soybean
In intercropping systems shading conditions significantly impair the seed yield and quality of soybean, and rarely someone investigated the minimum amount of...
The funny thing is I have seen many types of common vegetable type plants grow outdoors under some pretty intense sub-tropics sunlight and do not recall seeing extreme praying like we see here on forums with indoor plants.
Many times seen the droop, and that could be rectified with application of water. But praying plants look so happy. It must be good, right?
Interesting what you say about that chlorosis type look and blue rectifying it. I have experienced the condition developing with months old mothers under generic 3K. But giving them a little attention and feeding, the situation improved. Also seen a fairly similar look with long veg under HPS.
Outdoors we do not see these things manifesting. Is it the spectrum?
lukio
Well-Known Member
i dont discount it, like, maybe UV adds a lil something, maybe it doesnt. Seen a lot of led weed beat out hps, seen it go the other way a lot too, the better grower wins nearly every time. Its a multi billion dollar industry and i reckon the men in white coats are probably on top already. I think if there were any major advantages to be had by tuning spectrum we'd already know. I want to be wrong but i dunnooooo, im not very scientific either sooooo...no point listening to me lol
You can already control stretch to a degree with blues imo.
Ah damn, havent read SDS' links yet. tmoz/sunday.
Kushash
Well-Known Member
With praying leaves I feel many factors are at play.
One not mentioned is having developed a healthy root system.
I feel when the plant has reached it's saturation point near lights out the leaves will drop, not pray.
When they are praying on a healthy plant I feel they are saying they don't need 100% of what they are getting and allowing light to pass to the lower leaves. Just speculating as there is not much info out there that I have found.
I'll bet the majority who have praying leaves in perfect condition have an excellent healthy root system.
It's also more likely IMO to occur when a grower is focused on reading the plant and is not focused on gram per watt.
One not mentioned is having developed a healthy root system.
I feel when the plant has reached it's saturation point near lights out the leaves will drop, not pray.
When they are praying on a healthy plant I feel they are saying they don't need 100% of what they are getting and allowing light to pass to the lower leaves. Just speculating as there is not much info out there that I have found.
I'll bet the majority who have praying leaves in perfect condition have an excellent healthy root system.
It's also more likely IMO to occur when a grower is focused on reading the plant and is not focused on gram per watt.
colocowboy
Well-Known Member
What I have noticed over the years is that there are different ways that the leaves pray they can collapse themselves to avoid light or open up trying to get more always more nuance.
I use 3:1 3k:5k strips. It causes them to be a hair more leafy but also more frosty and nearly no stretch. Seems to make the mag deficiency issue worse too. This is a nice spectrum though, close to what chilled pucks are doing, I have four of those also. Been working on spectrum for the last few years in switching to led, pros and cons. I did a sssdh and it went to flower at about 80cm and stretched to a meter, for a haze I found that amazing. I just ran ecsd, more like 10cm stretch which is nothing, don’t even have to raise the lights.
I use 3:1 3k:5k strips. It causes them to be a hair more leafy but also more frosty and nearly no stretch. Seems to make the mag deficiency issue worse too. This is a nice spectrum though, close to what chilled pucks are doing, I have four of those also. Been working on spectrum for the last few years in switching to led, pros and cons. I did a sssdh and it went to flower at about 80cm and stretched to a meter, for a haze I found that amazing. I just ran ecsd, more like 10cm stretch which is nothing, don’t even have to raise the lights.
cobshopgrow
Well-Known Member
i would second that, many factors.
one factor is for sure also how much oxygen is in your root zone.
for me its easier to keep the plant praying in a hydro system then in soil.
adding some h2o2 have a effect too due to the oxygen released, i guess many observed this phenomen here allready.
this effect of course goes hand in hand with a healthy root system.
when theyre worked out from too much light they drop in their evening.
at least in veg and during transition this is a good indicator, during flower its hard to make them drop for me,
ill get leaf bleaching before this point at least.
also think, like rocket mentioned, that there are different types of praying leaves.
simply happy plants and complete oversaturated ones.
probably genetics plays its role there too.
Rocket Soul
Well-Known Member
I think theres a point in thinking about how does a plant/leaf come to be erect. Afai understand there has to be some water travelling thru the plant for this to happen, water attracts water which leads to a column of water to rise thru the plant. Sort of like an inflating bounce castle. Once this already happening the plant can go into that weird all leaves vertical praying when the plant limits exposure to light for the top. Not happening in nature? Well natural light is not like articial: it is fairly constant in that unshaded leaves 1m down gets the same amount of light as top. But in a grow room this is not quite the same: unshaded leaves 2m from the light gets considerably less light than top leaves due to intensity falling off. So its not strange if this is an indoor phenomena.
Everything mentioned by peeps above on why can be related to the pillar of water rising thru the plant: its capacity to draw water and its need to draw water. Roots must be there and the solution mustn't be so strong that it draws water out of the roots. Environment must be right for the plant to want to shed some heat by transpiring. It needs enough light by the right quality (mainly blue but some red) for the stomata to open wide.
Some foliars as stephen mentioned. CO2: with high levels they close stomata cause theyre allready getting enough. So you basicly need the input and the output of water in the plant to be on point for this to happen.
( @SDS_GR in reference to blue/green light reactions do you know if the stomata aperture is a part of blue light reaction in the sense that it is reversed by green light? In the sense that if i wanted to increase stomata apeture but without the rest of blue light reactions would giving green light at the same time let the stomata open but compensate the extra blue light? Youre usually the man for these things
)
Everything mentioned by peeps above on why can be related to the pillar of water rising thru the plant: its capacity to draw water and its need to draw water. Roots must be there and the solution mustn't be so strong that it draws water out of the roots. Environment must be right for the plant to want to shed some heat by transpiring. It needs enough light by the right quality (mainly blue but some red) for the stomata to open wide.
Some foliars as stephen mentioned. CO2: with high levels they close stomata cause theyre allready getting enough. So you basicly need the input and the output of water in the plant to be on point for this to happen.
( @SDS_GR in reference to blue/green light reactions do you know if the stomata aperture is a part of blue light reaction in the sense that it is reversed by green light? In the sense that if i wanted to increase stomata apeture but without the rest of blue light reactions would giving green light at the same time let the stomata open but compensate the extra blue light? Youre usually the man for these things
)
cobshopgrow
Well-Known Member
when theyre drinking they pray.
btw. they also pray under daylight.
these are reaching for some light, they wont get much more then 100ppfd at that point (varies a,lot over the day).
clear to see from where the light is comming.
btw. they also pray under daylight.
these are reaching for some light, they wont get much more then 100ppfd at that point (varies a,lot over the day).
clear to see from where the light is comming.
(...)I think theres a point in thinking about how does a plant/leaf come to be erect. Afai understand there has to be some water travelling thru the plant for this to happen, water attracts water which leads to a column of water to rise thru the plant. Sort of like an inflating bounce castle. Once this already happening the plant can go into that weird all leaves vertical praying when the plant limits exposure to light for the top. Not happening in nature? Well natural light is not like articial: it is fairly constant in that unshaded leaves 1m down gets the same amount of light as top. But in a grow room this is not quite the same: unshaded leaves 2m from the light gets considerably less light than top leaves due to intensity falling off. So its not strange if this is an indoor phenomena.
Everything mentioned by peeps above on why can be related to the pillar of water rising thru the plant: its capacity to draw water and its need to draw water. Roots must be there and the solution mustn't be so strong that it draws water out of the roots. Environment must be right for the plant to want to shed some heat by transpiring. It needs enough light by the right quality (mainly blue but some red) for the stomata to open wide.
Some foliars as stephen mentioned. CO2: with high levels they close stomata cause theyre allready getting enough. So you basicly need the input and the output of water in the plant to be on point for this to happen.
( @SDS_GR in reference to blue/green light reactions do you know if the stomata aperture is a part of blue light reaction in the sense that it is reversed by green light? In the sense that if i wanted to increase stomata apeture but without the rest of blue light reactions would giving green light at the same time let the stomata open but compensate the extra blue light? Youre usually the man for these things
The issue with green light is that it exerts an antagonistic effect on other blue light-induced responses, including stomatal closure (Frechilla et al., 2000) (...)
As far as praying leaves , if my memory does not deceive me , the actual mechanism is pretty simple .
The cells on the top part of the leaves
“deflate” , while the cells on the bottom part “inflate” with water .That way the leaves change their angle .
Leaf movements and photoinhibition in relation to water stress in field-grown beans
Abstract. Photoinhibition in plants depends on the extent of light energy being absorbed in excess of what can be used in photochemistry and is expected to
academic.oup.com
Leaf Angle - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics
Rocket Soul
Well-Known Member
Perfect, just the info i was looking for. Legend