LED Without LEDs -My First T5 Grow

PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
I am east of the mississippi. Swamp coolers are SAID not to work here due to the high humidity. Now if I could try one no charge, I would give it a go.
 
H

Hasbroh

Well-Known Member
If your house is air conditioned and you use a small interior swamp cooler it should work. You need to know your house's humidity first.
 
pr0fesseur

pr0fesseur

Well-Known Member
again i had no idea where you were so ya i used to live in FL swamp coolers are not useful there!they require humidity to be low....
 
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lymebrain

Active Member
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Bulbs are here. Man were they wrapped well this time.

I have a question about the Aqua Sun. The AS graph on Aquarium Specialty's site shows mostly Blue and Green (which I wanted), but the bulb light is pink. WTF? I called AS, they are investigating, but shouldn't this light be bluish?
 
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lymebrain

Active Member
brainalive said:
Hey All!

Noob alert! (duh). I'm a PhD student, studying biology (with a physics & mathematics background), though I'm not a botanist. The pr0f's approach really appeals to me! I'm going to try and advance things a little bit on the experimental side, once I'm satisfied that I have something to add. For now, a bit of an analytical contribution, and some more points for discussion.

I used bitmap-images of emission spectra of various bulbs (found these by following the pr0f's lead), and imported them into MATLAB (a piece of software used primarily by scientists and engineers for numerical computing). I was able to extract reasonable estimates of all the curves (x & y data). These are plotted here:

View attachment 1687906

Then, I estimated the over-all illumination spectrum for the combination of bulbs that the pr0f indicated he uses for veg & flowering (respectively). This was achieved by simply summing the emission values at each wavelength, and dividing the resulting intensity vs. wavelength curve by its maximum value, yielding a relative intensity vs. wavelength curve:

View attachment 1687903View attachment 1687904

I think that pr0f has done a really excellent job in putting these sets of bulbs together. However, I thought I would validate this opinion with some analysis.

What I've done (above) in combining the spectra from multiple bulbs, suggests a route to searching for an "optimal" combination of bulbs (one that most closely matches the action spectrum of photosynthesis). This is quite a straightforward thing to do, as we have the spectra from all the bulbs, and the desired spectrum. This is a simple linear equation which can be solved using linear algebra.

The only other wrinkle is which action spectrum to use? There were two images of action spectra that pr0f posted early on in this thread, so I decided to use both. Here is a plot of those action spectra, the pr0f's veg/flow spectra again (without components, just for comparison) and the two fits that I came up with (one for each action spectrum):

View attachment 1687905

The bulb combinations that this analysis suggested were: (for action spectrum 1) 1.0373 x ATI Actinic, 1.3633 x KorallenZucht Fiji Purple, 0.2249 x UVL AquaSun, 0.1560 x UVL RedSun & (for action spectrum 2) 1.0047 x ATI Actinic, 0.1991 x ATI Blue Plus, 0.2575 x ATI Purple Plus, 1.2164 x KorallenZucht Fiji Purple, 0.3465 x UVL AquaSun, 0.1698 x UVL RedSun.

Note that I don't consider these reasonable or recommended in any way! In fact, to achieve these sorts of fractional illuminances, one would have to use filters, or a very large number of bulbs with small fractions in each of the categories corresponding to the fractions indicated in the analysis. Rather, I was trying to keep in the academic spirit of this thread and explore what the math had to tell us. What the math DOES show is (again) that the pr0f's setup is just great, note that neither of the "optimal" spectra do much better (if at all) approximating either of the action spectra. Why did I do this then? To satisfy my suspicious mind! And for the fun of it (yep, I'm a huge nerd, and proud of it).

Finally, some thoughts about action spectra. An action spectrum is obtained by keeping a plant in a sealed environment where CO2 use can be monitored. The use of C02 being a good approximation of the rate of photosynthesis. We did a very simple version of this in a physiology lab that I was the TA for several times, using spinach, and comparing the rate of photosynthesis under blue light to the rate under red light (using colored filters). The reason that I mention this is that it is important to understand that without actually performing this sort of empirical test of the effects of various wavelengths of light on a cannabis plant, it is essentially impossible to know the action spectrum. This is one reason why it is very likely to see images of "the action spectrum of photosynthesis" that are very different: they're derived from empirical observations of different plants. I've been scouring various journals of botany to find out if somebody has actually collected data that would reveal the action spectrum of photosynthesis in cannabis, but to no avail. I'm particularly interested in the possibility of non-linear interactions between wavelengths (this has been mentioned above, the idea that green light can stimulate photosynthesis in the presence of high-intensity red light).

I have found some nuggets of information, however, that are worth-while in relating:

(1) "Action spectra for the promotion of flowering by long periods of irradiation in the red and far-red regions of the spectrum have been determined by the use of interference filters. The percentage floral initiation was greatest at 710–720 um for both wheat and rape [seed]"

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1399-3054.1968.tb07348.x/abstract

(2) "The concentration of cannabinoids in Cannabis sativa L. is correlated with high ultraviolet-B (UV-B) radiation environments."

http://www.osti.gov/energycitations/product.biblio.jsp?osti_id=6696642

(3) "The concentration of Δ9-tetrahydrocannabinol (Δ9-THC), but not of other cannabinoids, in both leaf and floral tissues increased with UV-B dose in drug-type plants."

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1751-1097.1987.tb04757.x/abstract

Thus, finally:

It seems like perhaps it would be worthwhile to get some far-red in the spectrum to promote flowering (although the data in ref 1 are obvs not from cannabis, and I know that Fiji Purple definitely gets some in there). It also seems like including some UV-B (315 nm–280 nm) during flowering might increase THC production. Thoughts?
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hi brainalive,

Seeing how you already have the info in your system is it possible for you to produce a graph for me based on 2 * KorallenZucht Fiji Purple and 2 * ATI Purple Plus. Perhaps comment on that mixes suitability for flowering.

and help my brain come more alive :-)
lymebrain.
 
pr0fesseur

pr0fesseur

Well-Known Member
.. i would stay away from any bulb not mentioned by me, or any new "color" i havent mentioned... brainslave has done quite alot of work and i thank him for it... I will be including these charts on my google doc when its finished...
UVL has a few bulbs that you can easily find..
the aquasun IS pink thats the color... it has some red but mostly orange and green besides the blue.. again i dont use the specialty bulbs i try to stick with purer color bulbs to target the spectrum im after... the aquasun has useless orange and yellow... no red to speak of...
i would use the 75.25 personally it has some far red and more red after 600nm... a little green :D
 
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lymebrain

Active Member
pr0fesseur said:
2 fuji purple 1 red sun 1 blue plus or 454...fuji on outside blue and red in middle!
Click to expand...
UVL Red Sun don't appear to be available here?

Any other possible suggestions ?

Perhaps 2 Fiji purple and 2 ATI Purple plus ?

Do you know anything about the new Korallen Zucht - T5 Coral Light New Generation 54w ? http://www.coralculture.co.uk/shop/p...oducts_id=3489

Any help greatly appreciated stop me having to go the HPS route.

many thanks prof.
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
FYI: I noticed the markings on both sets of bulbs had V-HO, so I called yesterday to make sure that I did not get VHO bulbs. They mfg response basically says the V-HO designation does not mean VHO. What rocket scientist decided that V-HO made sense is beyond me. I suggested they make this clear on their site. hth
 
MurshDawg

MurshDawg

Active Member
DUDE! are you running HO or VHO. I own a sunblaze t5-48 HO and I started with only 3000k and 6500k bulbs and then I saw Aquarium bulbs and i had the same epiphany. I want to know what type of bulbs you recommend. where do you find redder t5ho bulbs?
 
pr0fesseur

pr0fesseur

Well-Known Member
novice11 said:
I agree, but the answer is to use HO and not VHO. If you read the thread you will see that VHO are overdriven HO bulbs and are not cost-effective.
Click to expand...
*POOF*
VHO bulbs are indeed overdriven T5, while they are more inefficient, you would not be able to overdrive them with a standard ballast anyways. you would need an ATI fixture to do that and they are 500$+ not worth it IMHO, in addition they effectively halve the life of your bulbs... HOWEVER! you can overdrive the 400w to over 600W no problem and even use a dimmer to simulate sunrise noon and sunset as this is the method many people use for their aquariums. but just because you can overdrive doesent mean you should! overdriving actually doesent effect the gas inside but the electrodes that excite the gas, as they wear out very fast and eventually take more and more juice to keep the light aglow. thus killing your ballast in return. again a caveat ati ballasts are meant to be overdriven and from what i have read they are not cheap to replace! might as well just buy 2 fixtures for the same price!!!

and yes READ THE DAMN THREAD
i have done plenty of explaining in her to make me blue in the face. I will however respond to well thought out ideas and questions that are outside the scope of my and others explainations or if i have left out any details.
I am still traveling and have yet to get home so please be patient!
I commend others for their interest and expect to see an entire thread full of people growing with this method...
or maybe ill start my own? possible! i still think i deserve a sticky!
we should put it to a vote! lol
For those of you buying these setups hurry up with the damn pics already.... jk!
I have come across some new bulbs i cant say much about yet still doing research.. we shall see.! Looks VERY promising for THC/RESIN production!!!!!






Side note!!! i just got a free macbook pro.. someone was going to toss it because it wouldent post.. took it in for repair found out there was a recall on the logic board (600$ repair!!!) FREE!!! The only way i would ever own a MAC...
 
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novice11

Active Member
You're living right, Pr0fesseur...

These new bulbs would take the place of the Red ones? C'mon, drop a hint!!!
 
pr0fesseur

pr0fesseur

Well-Known Member
Anyone who says these bulbs wont produce buds needs to take a close look here * Weeks people!
DSC01690.jpgDSC01693.jpgDSC01687.jpgDSC01691.jpgDSC01692.jpgDSC01689.jpgDSC01683.jpgDSC01686.jpg
Plant physiology people ...
510 nm - 610 nm=WEAK light absorption by chlorophyll, no morphogenetic effect....
but 610-720 that's where we want the light for flowering....
Par2.jpg
A number of secondary metabolites such as flavonoids, tannins and lignins=(Polyphenols!!!!!) are increased at elevated levels of UV-B radiation which screen UV-B and protect the cellular components against the UV-B damage.
Now it shows that Green light indeed does help with lower canopy and crowded situations..
 
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Grimbsy

Active Member
Amazing work pr0f, I applaud your efforts in finding a viable alternative to HPS, and making it as efficient as possible. :clap: I've been thinking about getting into this and making it as space and energy efficient as possible, I'm thinking about a setup similar to isthis2012.

I'm going to have a 4 tier shelf, 32" apart, shelves are going to be 24"^2, going to be using pots 6" tall 7" diameter, and the lights should be about 2", leaving me with 24". I'm going to be growing an autoflower with a max height of 24", with 3 rows of 3 on each shelf. I've been looking into getting 1 or 2 sunblaze 24" 24w T5 strip lights per shelf as I'm trying to keep the total power consumption under 200w, I'm well aware I'm not going to yield very much, but this is more of an experiment, even if I get 5g dry per plant I'll be happy. The shelves are going to be fully enclosed and covered in mylar, and I'm going to have relectors on the t5s bent to get more light to the outer rows to maximize efficiency. :shock:

Now for the question, I read the optimal color temp for autoflowers is 6500k, but I was wondering if you could recommend something better. I'd go with everything you've already suggested, but I'm trying to keep it down to 2 24" t5's max per shelf.

Oh yeah, and where is a cheap place to get 24" t5 fixtures? The cheapest on ebay is 30$ shipped, for that price I might as well buy the sunblazes, pay 6$ less and get a free bulb. :-?

Thanks in advance. :)
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Now for the question, I read the optimal color temp for autoflowers is 6500k, but I was wondering if you could recommend something better. How would anyone know 6500 is best unless they experimented with aquarium lights? I recently grew a sweet little AF using mostly a UFO 90 LED. It did get some T5 lighting during mid growth - early flower
pots 6" tall 7" diameter, Even short AFs need more soil than this to reach their full potential

hth
 
G

Grimbsy

Active Member
About the lights, https://www.rollitup.org/grow-room-design-setup/183511-auto-flower-strain-lighting.html, https://www.rollitup.org/cfl-growing/441426-autoflower-grow-using-cfl.html, https://www.rollitup.org/newbie-central/428530-2700k-6500k-cfls-autoflowers-2.html, some people are saying use 2700k+6500k, 1 person says 6500k straight through, 1 person says 2700k straight through, people on other sites are also suggesting 6500k straight through, I gathered that the general consensus was that 6500k is the best to have if only using one. That combined with the fact I found a fixture + 6500k bulb for 24$ made it the best choice. I guess "optimal" was a bad way of wording it.

Out of the strains I've been looking at they recommend 5-7 litres for the really short ones that grow 12-16", I know it's on the smaller side, but I've read in quite a few threads that 1 gal pots are ok for them.
 
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