pr0fesseur
Well-Known Member
"Two photons cannot ever collide.In fact light is quantized only when interaction with matter."
LED Without LEDs -My First T5 Grow
- Thread starter pr0fesseur
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Sorry if this is mentioned in here somewhere... do we know how much lumens worth (or whatever measurement I should be talking about) is being "wasted" into the wrong spectrum? As far as HPS goes? Or MH for that matter (for Veg). I'm trying to get some kind of an idea when I look at one deep red bulb's lumens how many of them it would take to stack up to the HPS bulb's red spectra that it puts out. I'll go digging through this again and delete this if I find it 
Hope you know what I'm getting at? (Warning, I don't know the math) If people knew that 70% or some crazy amount of their current bulb setup was creating useless light, wasting power, and extra heat... causing them to keep the plants far away from the bulb to lose even more effect... out of the 50,000 lumens hitting their plant only 15000 lumens were actually helping it flower... then they'd probably consider buying 40,000 lumens worth of T5 that they could hold practically on top of the plants, hehe
Hope you know what I'm getting at? (Warning, I don't know the math) If people knew that 70% or some crazy amount of their current bulb setup was creating useless light, wasting power, and extra heat... causing them to keep the plants far away from the bulb to lose even more effect... out of the 50,000 lumens hitting their plant only 15000 lumens were actually helping it flower... then they'd probably consider buying 40,000 lumens worth of T5 that they could hold practically on top of the plants, hehe
dr.smallbudz
Member
can i use led stage light as a grow light?
pr0fesseur
Well-Known Member
you can use whatever you want... theres no guarantee it will work... this is a T5 thread check out the LED threads
pr0fesseur
Well-Known Member
I will be nice and point you in the right direction....Sorry if this is mentioned in here somewhere... do we know how much lumens worth (or whatever measurement I should be talking about) is being "wasted" into the wrong spectrum? As far as HPS goes? Or MH for that matter (for Veg). I'm trying to get some kind of an idea when I look at one deep red bulb's lumens how many of them it would take to stack up to the HPS bulb's red spectra that it puts out. I'll go digging through this again and delete this if I find it
Hope you know what I'm getting at? (Warning, I don't know the math) If people knew that 70% or some crazy amount of their current bulb setup was creating useless light, wasting power, and extra heat... causing them to keep the plants far away from the bulb to lose even more effect... out of the 50,000 lumens hitting their plant only 15000 lumens were actually helping it flower... then they'd probably consider buying 40,000 lumens worth of T5 that they could hold practically on top of the plants, hehe
These are standard and enhanced horticulture bulbs.
Along the graphs you will notice that the light "peaks". that is where the light is actually produced and the body of the peak is the "intensity" of that light.. the higher the peak the more light is produced @ that frequency as a total percentage of light output... Whew
now youll notice that the "large majority of light is produced between 540nm and 620nm most of that light is wasted because the plant is not very sensitive to that wavelength..
now using this reference is like filling a bathtub full of muddy water, sure you can drink it but theres a shit ton of crap in the water you have to remove...
once you remove all the mud you may be left with very little potable water to use...
now if i use distilled water and fill the tub i can drink all of it with no waste..
read about PAR values and PUR values..
100W of 100% PAR = 1000W of 10% PAR and this is what im trying to achieve.. (let the flaming begin..)
now my bulbs are approx 90% PAR on average
now most companies use the SUN to measure PAR or PUR values against but that theory is a fart in a windstorm..
plants DONT use all the visible spectrum... but a very narrow band of 380nm to 450nm and 580 to 660nm and 750nm FAR red
any light produced out of that band is "less" effective
sure 1000W bulbs produce an abundance of light... but not in the photosynthesis action curve
View attachment 1711582View attachment 1711583
pr0fesseur
Well-Known Member
https://www.rollitup.org/blogs/blog13232-scientists-2-cents.html
ill repost this a few times to answer any n00b questions!
ill repost this a few times to answer any n00b questions!
pr0fesseur
Well-Known Member
EVERYONE WHO LIKES MY THREAD PLEASE GO TO MY GROUP!!
If i have helped you in any way towards your success please dont be shy to ADD +REP
If i have helped you in any way towards your success please dont be shy to ADD +REP
Paperhouse
Active Member
Do you guys think a 4' 8 Bulb T5 Badboy with pr0fesseur's bulb setup would give similar yield to a 600W HPS in a small scale closet grow using LST/SCROG?
pr0fesseur
Well-Known Member
No one will be willing to make those claims....not even me...
Different tech different method different end results... this is all experimental and a WIP. Even saying is a 600W hortilux bulb = a 600W solarmax...is still a stretch..
Have you seen my results so far? Have you taken the time to read this entire thread? did you read it again?
When you do you will realize that your question is moot.
Learn what light IS how it affects plants, read all the material and ask yourself will it work for YOU!
Different tech different method different end results... this is all experimental and a WIP. Even saying is a 600W hortilux bulb = a 600W solarmax...is still a stretch..
Have you seen my results so far? Have you taken the time to read this entire thread? did you read it again?
When you do you will realize that your question is moot.
Learn what light IS how it affects plants, read all the material and ask yourself will it work for YOU!
Alright. Tell me if I'm completely off?
The point or question I'm trying to pose, at least I think
"Is there a way we can put some different numbers on the table to spell out what is equivalent?". I think if we can that'd help well... me at least! Probably many others. Lets say you're delivering 70k lumens at a plant from your 1k watt HPS, at optimal range. The spectral range of around 620nm looks to be fairly important for the plant (I assume for flowering?), only about 30% of your bulbs lumens are applying because it just doesn't deliver this range in a high concentration. So we can say "This HPS is delivering 21k lumens around the 620nm mark". When you get down to 660-700nm it's more like 10% effective, perhaps we can say "At 660-700nm the HPS delivers 7000 lumens to this range".So now people can look at this 660-700nm range, see how important it is (looks high on the importance scale) and try to find better T5 bulbs to hit that range. If a T5 bulb can put out 5000+ lumens at this range at a cost of 55 watts lets say... seems like a great option to at least supplement the HPS with a very deep red T5 bulb? As for totally replacing an HPS bulb, if I saw something like what I'm writing below.. I'd think more people would try the experiment (I'm making these numbers up, I hope the ones above or somewhat realistic)
T5 bulb A produces 7000 lumens for 55 watts, 5000 lumens hits 660-720nm, with a peak of 5500 lumens hitting 690-700nm
T5 bulb B produces 5000 lumens for 42 watts, 4000 lumens hits 420nm-500nm, with a peak of 45000 lumens at 450nm
Your HPS bulb produces 70k lumens for 1000 watts, as far as flowering goes though, 20k lumens are hitting x range
(And if it's possible) Combination A of T5 bulbs produces 40k lumens, x of which hits the deep red range, x of which hits your orange range at a cost of x watts, time to throw out your HPS bulb and try this.
Now if T5 bulbs capable of efficiently covering the entirety of the flowering ranges exist or not, I wouldn't know
To me though, it seems like that deep red range is barely even being touched on by HPS.EDIT: Or actually, (I've re-read your PUR and PAR statements) if you put up a setup that's say 70% PUR and another that's 80% PAR @ x lumens and x watts it puts you in a situation where you can compare that "This HPS however is is 20% PUR, delivering x effective lumens at x watts"
Sorry I'm pretty confused myself at what I wrote
LOLhi there prof great info!
I am currently using a LightWave T5 LW 44-HO .
This is in an area 43cm * 130cm. There are currently 4 * 6500K 865 54w tubes in the unit. Could you give me some advice on how to achieve your effect in such a limited space. I am mainly concerned with flowering at the moment though your thoughts on vegging would be much appreciated. Perhaps using some tubes lighting from the base of the plants up ?
many thanks any help greatly appreciated.
I am currently using a LightWave T5 LW 44-HO .
This is in an area 43cm * 130cm. There are currently 4 * 6500K 865 54w tubes in the unit. Could you give me some advice on how to achieve your effect in such a limited space. I am mainly concerned with flowering at the moment though your thoughts on vegging would be much appreciated. Perhaps using some tubes lighting from the base of the plants up ?
many thanks any help greatly appreciated.
pr0fesseur
Well-Known Member
your trying to quantify 3 different scales which CANT be done... you cant measure speed and distance @ the same time.. laws of physics demand you only measure one @ a time because both are relative to the observer...Alright. Tell me if I'm completely off?
The point or question I'm trying to pose, at least I think
So now people can look at this 660-700nm range, see how important it is (looks high on the importance scale) and try to find better T5 bulbs to hit that range. If a T5 bulb can put out 5000+ lumens at this range at a cost of 55 watts lets say... seems like a great option to at least supplement the HPS with a very deep red T5 bulb? As for totally replacing an HPS bulb, if I saw something like what I'm writing below.. I'd think more people would try the experiment (I'm making these numbers up, I hope the ones above or somewhat realistic)
T5 bulb A produces 7000 lumens for 55 watts, 5000 lumens hits 660-720nm, with a peak of 5500 lumens hitting 690-700nm
T5 bulb B produces 5000 lumens for 42 watts, 4000 lumens hits 420nm-500nm, with a peak of 45000 lumens at 450nm
Your HPS bulb produces 70k lumens for 1000 watts, as far as flowering goes though, 20k lumens are hitting x range
(And if it's possible) Combination A of T5 bulbs produces 40k lumens, x of which hits the deep red range, x of which hits your orange range at a cost of x watts, time to throw out your HPS bulb and try this.
Now if T5 bulbs capable of efficiently covering the entirety of the flowering ranges exist or not, I wouldn't know
EDIT: Or actually, (I've re-read your PUR and PAR statements) if you put up a setup that's say 70% PUR and another that's 80% PAR @ x lumens and x watts it puts you in a situation where you can compare that "This HPS however is is 20% PUR, delivering x effective lumens at x watts"
Sorry I'm pretty confused myself at what I wrote
Physics aside, your trying to measure an elephant and a rock... apples and oranges have too many similarities! first ignore lumens.. forget they even exist... imagine the PUR and PAR values as the speed of light.. a constant if you will... so if you know the speed of light why compare the anything to it? its a constant... a PAR value is more of an indicator than ANY measurement... thats why it exists in the first place! if i have a bulb thats 90%PUR and a bulb of 50% par it would take dramatically more wattage of 50% PUR to = the 90% get it? so in essence lets say im producing 432W of 90% PUR and your producing(sun = 2000) 600W of 40% par with hps.. MH has a higher par value due to a broader red spectrum... in essence it doesent matter how much light you use its diminishing returns. For every 1w u have to create in order to bring up your PUR you have to use 1/3 w to mitigate it! thats why LED do such a great job with plants they measure at about 1200 PAR which is 60% i get 90 on average because T5 produces MORE PUR light per watt... and these lights are dialed in for growing living organisms and have 20 years of research behind them! the reason you have to use 1000w hps to reach through the canopy is because only 40% of the light is usable by the plant... so your only getting 400W of usable light! if your light is MORE efficient you dont need as much of it!
IGNORE the 3000k 6500k bullshit thats a kelvin measurement of a black body radiator and IS NOT FOR GAS LAMPS!!!!
someone put that on a gas lamp and it stuck a LONG time ago.... there is NO BLACK BODY RADIATOR IN GAS LAMPS!!! quit thinking your 6500k bulbs are actually that ... its a fallacy that really needs to stop! PLEASE read my thread again i really think your not picking up what im putting down...
watts are not a measurement of anything but POWER REQUIRED TO RUN THE LAMP!
LUMENS The lumen (symbol: lm) is the SI derived unit of luminous flux, a measure of the total "amount" of visible light emitted by a source. Luminous flux differs from power (radiant flux) in that luminous flux measurements reflect the varying sensitivity of the human eye to different wavelengths of light, while radiant flux measurements indicate the total power of all light emitted, independent of the eye's ability to perceive it.
A bulbs lumen rating means NOTHING to plants... for example!
uva is not visible to the human eye so therefore the uva bulb would have 0 lumens. plants can "see" uva so does that mean uva doesent do anything for plants because we cant see it NO NOT AT ALL!
jsut because your bulb produces 55000 lumens doesent mean a fart in a windstorm it only 5% of that light is USABLE to plants!
pr0fesseur
Well-Known Member
use the setup i have outlined in this forum as far as bulb layout and selection.. dont go craxy plants dont need light @ the base of the plant but near the top!
but with only four bulbs is this possible ?
pr0fesseur
Well-Known Member
2 fuji purple 1 red sun 1 blue plus or 454...fuji on outside blue and red in middle!
PetFlora
Well-Known Member
My new bulbs should be here Wednesday. FYI Aquatic Specialties told me that Red Sun has a new name, but I forget what it is. (Reefer Madness)
Anyway, I tried running half my Bad Boy 8 bulb as I have some fresh seeds working under my UFO 90, which vegges well in spite of being ~ 90% red (don't know what nms either B/R are but I think 2 blues and 2-3 reds are covered). Even under ~ 200 watts of Quantum Grow bulbs that room gets too damn hot, unless I want a bunch of males- 92 degrees in early morning. Imagine hours 12-6pm being hotter. So, unless a Bad Ass in-room ac falls into my lap, I'm DOA until it gets cool enough here ( typically mid October). Plus they already hooked up a Smart Meter. I read where I can send a specific letter to get it removed which states that eavesdropping is a Federal Offense.
I have a small Mylar lined closet under air with my UFO 90. Even though it's 3 yo technology, it does a damned good job of growing 2-3 < 15" colas. So yes LEDs work, but, T 5s offer twice the sqft coverage for one-third the price.
It pisses me off that I am stuck on the sidelines because I was thinking about this and researching non-aquatic T5 HOs before seeing Pr0fs thread. Still I didn't know where to start other than simply adding ~ 500nm range to punch up chlorophyll production; a tidbit I learned about while staying current on LED technology. FYI: GSL charges $100 extra to get Green LEDs in his Pro Bloom version. I was thinking about getting one until I came across Pr0fs thread. But I wasn't thinking too hard, because the same coverage would cost $1500+ and I had just bought the Bad Boy.
Hope you guys aren't gonna make Pr0f do all the heavy lifting. Let's see more pics. The shots of Pr0f's babies with 3-4 nodes look fantastic for that stage, though I did have some nice ones myself using just Quantums bulbs.
Anyway, I tried running half my Bad Boy 8 bulb as I have some fresh seeds working under my UFO 90, which vegges well in spite of being ~ 90% red (don't know what nms either B/R are but I think 2 blues and 2-3 reds are covered). Even under ~ 200 watts of Quantum Grow bulbs that room gets too damn hot, unless I want a bunch of males- 92 degrees in early morning. Imagine hours 12-6pm being hotter. So, unless a Bad Ass in-room ac falls into my lap, I'm DOA until it gets cool enough here ( typically mid October). Plus they already hooked up a Smart Meter. I read where I can send a specific letter to get it removed which states that eavesdropping is a Federal Offense.
I have a small Mylar lined closet under air with my UFO 90. Even though it's 3 yo technology, it does a damned good job of growing 2-3 < 15" colas. So yes LEDs work, but, T 5s offer twice the sqft coverage for one-third the price.
It pisses me off that I am stuck on the sidelines because I was thinking about this and researching non-aquatic T5 HOs before seeing Pr0fs thread. Still I didn't know where to start other than simply adding ~ 500nm range to punch up chlorophyll production; a tidbit I learned about while staying current on LED technology. FYI: GSL charges $100 extra to get Green LEDs in his Pro Bloom version. I was thinking about getting one until I came across Pr0fs thread. But I wasn't thinking too hard, because the same coverage would cost $1500+ and I had just bought the Bad Boy.
Hope you guys aren't gonna make Pr0f do all the heavy lifting. Let's see more pics. The shots of Pr0f's babies with 3-4 nodes look fantastic for that stage, though I did have some nice ones myself using just Quantums bulbs.
pr0fesseur
Well-Known Member
thanks flora... you can get a swamp cooler pretty cheap that will cool that area cheaply... speaking of heavy lifting my plant tumbled over today under her own weight!!!! so im stringing her back up be patient ill have pics tonight.. maybe...
Im leaving for a bit for business so no updates/responses till next week. please join my advanced t5 gorwers so that i may create a bulb vendor/price list for our bulbs so everyone can use it!
Im leaving for a bit for business so no updates/responses till next week. please join my advanced t5 gorwers so that i may create a bulb vendor/price list for our bulbs so everyone can use it!