Kamala Harris will announce her bid for 2020 on Jan 21

Roger A. Shrubber said:

really? i believe yesterday you told me to provide citations or it didn't happen......now you're telling people to google shit?........YOU provide some citations....

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londonfog said:

What bothers me is his plan does not tell how he will pay for all his free shit. Also I'm concerned on how he will handle foreign affairs. His wife also worries me on how she runs a business

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Roger A. Shrubber said:

https://theweek.com/articles/603044/bernie-sanders-not-nearly-progressive-think

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/03/bernie-sanders-hillary-clinton-voting-history/

https://votesmart.org/candidate/key-votes/27110/bernie-sanders

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2015/sep/22/fact-checking-viral-graphic-critical-bernie-sander/

so here are some citations of bernie's questionable voting record, as promised....he talks out of both sides of his mouth at the same time....and his ass

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ttystikk said:

Bullshit.

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Roger A. Shrubber said:

https://theweek.com/articles/603044/bernie-sanders-not-nearly-progressive-think

so here are some citations of bernie's questionable voting record, as promised....he talks out of both sides of his mouth at the same time....and his ass

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UncleBuck said:

It was a yes or no question

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Padawanbater2 said:

-against police body camera regulations
-pro AIPAC, supported $38 Billion to Israel
-refused to prosecute Steve Mnuchin as AG of California after requests from her own office
-opposed legalizing recreational marijuana in CA until May, 2018
-defended California's 'three-strikes law'

"In practice, Harris defended California’s uniquely cruel three-strikes law, the only one in the country which imposed life sentences for a third “strike” that was any minor felony. She urged voters to reject Proposition 66, a ballot initiative that would have reformed the harsh law by making only serious or violent felonies trigger life sentences."

-pushed to criminalize student truancy
-has repeatedly sided with cops/law enforcement in multiple cases of wrongful convictions, i.e. Daniel Larson
-tried to dismiss a case critical of solitary confinement
-fought a suit brought on by a sex workers rights organization to legalize prostitution in CA
-defended CA's death penalty
-a firm proponent of civil asset forfeiture, sponsoring a bill to allow prosecutors to seize profits before charges were filed

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Padawanbater2 said:

-against police body camera regulations
-pro AIPAC, supported $38 Billion to Israel
-refused to prosecute Steve Mnuchin as AG of California after requests from her own office
-opposed legalizing recreational marijuana in CA until May, 2018
-defended California's 'three-strikes law'

"In practice, Harris defended California’s uniquely cruel three-strikes law, the only one in the country which imposed life sentences for a third “strike” that was any minor felony. She urged voters to reject Proposition 66, a ballot initiative that would have reformed the harsh law by making only serious or violent felonies trigger life sentences."

-pushed to criminalize student truancy
-has repeatedly sided with cops/law enforcement in multiple cases of wrongful convictions, i.e. Daniel Larson
-tried to dismiss a case critical of solitary confinement
-fought a suit brought on by a sex workers rights organization to legalize prostitution in CA
-defended CA's death penalty
-a firm proponent of civil asset forfeiture, sponsoring a bill to allow prosecutors to seize profits before charges were filed

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Padawanbater2 said:

Is that really the case, or are you simply very easily swayed by propaganda pieces that confirm your bias?


I read through the first article you posted and was taken aback by the sheer amount of propaganda the author, Bonnie Kristian, managed to push. Let's start with her premise: "Sanders is not as progressive as he says he is"

Immediately, she tries to steer the narrative as "Sanders isn't a progressive, either!", attempting to contrast his record to Hillary Clinton's, who, by every measurable metric, is, and always has been, much more conservative than Bernie Sanders..

Bad start..

Her main examples used are his voting record on the issues of: Gun reform, criminal justice reform, and foreign policy, so let's examine those..

Gun control: Sanders received a D- rating from the NRA in 2018

"Sanders' staff has tried to explain his comparative conservatism here as part and parcel of representing Vermont, a left-wing but gun-friendly state, but either way, his is hardly a super-progressive record on guns."

"comparative conservatism" - that's an interesting choice of words for a man who received a D- rating from the NRA... "super-progressive", as if "comparatively", an 'F' rating is presumably "super-progressive"... What's a D-? Just standard ol' progressive..? If Sanders received a 'C' or 'B' rating from the NRA, Kristian might have a valid point to poke at, but he has a D- rating.. No rational person would look at that and conclude Sanders is soft on gun control regulations. One final point about this hardlined stance on Sanders on gun control; the exact same people levying the criticism about his voting record and his staff's response to it about representing Vermont citizens are the exact same people who vehemently defend Senators like Joe Manchin and Claire McCaskill who actively vote with the Republican party more than 50% of the time, so spare me the faux outrage over Sanders on his gun control regulation record, it just comes off as extremely hypocritical and disingenuous

Criminal justice reform: "The rhetoric is right. But Sanders' record says otherwise." (here, Kristian actually cites 'The Federalist', to validate her point. A well known right wing propaganda website designed to smear Democratic and left wing politicians)

Kristian continues;

"For instance, Sanders sounded a similar note back in April 1994, decrying America's ballooning prison population and its ties to poverty. But just one week later, he voted to pass the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, a centerpiece of Bill Clinton's "tough on crime" shtick, which, among other things, mandated a life sentence for anyone convicted of three drug crimes; expanded the list of death penalty crimes; lowered the age at which a juvenile could be tried as an adult to just 13; and appropriated billions to expand the prison system and hire 100,000 new police officers."

The Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 was written by Joe Biden, supported by Hillary Clinton, and signed by Bill Clinton

It's interesting how Kristian chose to only include the negatives of the bill in the article, most of which Sanders has publicly available statements in which he's clearly opposed to, like drug crimes, and the death penalty..

According to Wikipedia;

"Following the 101 California Street shooting, the 1993 Waco Siege, and other high-profile instances of violent crime, the Act expanded federal law in several ways. One of the most noted sections was the Federal Assault Weapons Ban. Other parts of the Act provided for a greatly expanded federal death penalty, new classes of individuals banned from possessing firearms, and a variety of new crimes defined in statutes relating to immigration law, hate crimes, sex crimes, and gang-related crime. The bill also required states to establish registries for sexual offenders by September 1997."

So I wonder why Kristian didn't include any of the positives of the bill in her article..

Foreign policy: Bernie Sanders was the only Independent congressman to vote against the Iraq War Resolution. His foreign policy record speaks for itself


It took me an hour to deconstruct this propaganda piece. I simply don't have the time or the will to deconstruct all of them, and that's the point... That's why they're produced at such an exceptional rate. They can't all be combatted, and that's why it's so easy for propaganda to spread.

This was a detailed, thorough analysis of one of your citations. I simply can't do this for all of them, that's why it's so important for you to be able to spot bullshit when you see it before you post it.


All corporate mainstream media has a very specific agenda to sell, that is their entire purpose. That's why they hire pretty thoughtless people who don't rock the boat and pay them millions of dollars a year to say what they want them to say to millions of viewers. It's why Fox News is so successful.

I just spent a considerable amount of time responding to this. I would appreciate a reply from you

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Fogdog said:

The AG stuff is her doing her job.

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Fogdog said:

Thus far, I don't see any hard lines crossed

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Fogdog said:

What do you mean when you use the term "progressive"?

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Padawanbater2 said:

Against police body cameras?
Refused to prosecute MNuchin event hough her office recommended it?
Recreational marijuana
Three Strikes?
All the wrongful convictions?
Solitary confinement?
Legal prostitution?
Death penalty?
Civil asset forfeiture?

You would call that "doing her job"?

You're gonna have to do better than that in explaining why you support her in it...

Each of those positions she held are conservative. They're not progressive. So why would someone who claims to be progressive try to defend them?

You don't...?

Someone who doesn't accept legal bribes

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Fogdog said:

summary: Sanders is OK

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Padawanbater2 said:

Is that really the case, or are you simply very easily swayed by propaganda pieces that confirm your bias?


I read through the first article you posted and was taken aback by the sheer amount of propaganda the author, Bonnie Kristian, managed to push. Let's start with her premise: "Sanders is not as progressive as he says he is"

Immediately, she tries to steer the narrative as "Sanders isn't a progressive, either!", attempting to contrast his record to Hillary Clinton's, who, by every measurable metric, is, and always has been, much more conservative than Bernie Sanders..

Bad start..

Her main examples used are his voting record on the issues of: Gun reform, criminal justice reform, and foreign policy, so let's examine those..

Gun control: Sanders received a D- rating from the NRA in 2018

"Sanders' staff has tried to explain his comparative conservatism here as part and parcel of representing Vermont, a left-wing but gun-friendly state, but either way, his is hardly a super-progressive record on guns."

"comparative conservatism" - that's an interesting choice of words for a man who received a D- rating from the NRA... "super-progressive", as if "comparatively", an 'F' rating is presumably "super-progressive"... What's a D-? Just standard ol' progressive..? If Sanders received a 'C' or 'B' rating from the NRA, Kristian might have a valid point to poke at, but he has a D- rating.. No rational person would look at that and conclude Sanders is soft on gun control regulations. One final point about this hardlined stance on Sanders on gun control; the exact same people levying the criticism about his voting record and his staff's response to it about representing Vermont citizens are the exact same people who vehemently defend Senators like Joe Manchin and Claire McCaskill who actively vote with the Republican party more than 50% of the time, so spare me the faux outrage over Sanders on his gun control regulation record, it just comes off as extremely hypocritical and disingenuous

Criminal justice reform: "The rhetoric is right. But Sanders' record says otherwise." (here, Kristian actually cites 'The Federalist', to validate her point. A well known right wing propaganda website designed to smear Democratic and left wing politicians)

Kristian continues;

"For instance, Sanders sounded a similar note back in April 1994, decrying America's ballooning prison population and its ties to poverty. But just one week later, he voted to pass the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, a centerpiece of Bill Clinton's "tough on crime" shtick, which, among other things, mandated a life sentence for anyone convicted of three drug crimes; expanded the list of death penalty crimes; lowered the age at which a juvenile could be tried as an adult to just 13; and appropriated billions to expand the prison system and hire 100,000 new police officers."

The Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 was written by Joe Biden, supported by Hillary Clinton, and signed by Bill Clinton

It's interesting how Kristian chose to only include the negatives of the bill in the article, most of which Sanders has publicly available statements in which he's clearly opposed to, like drug crimes, and the death penalty..

According to Wikipedia;

"Following the 101 California Street shooting, the 1993 Waco Siege, and other high-profile instances of violent crime, the Act expanded federal law in several ways. One of the most noted sections was the Federal Assault Weapons Ban. Other parts of the Act provided for a greatly expanded federal death penalty, new classes of individuals banned from possessing firearms, and a variety of new crimes defined in statutes relating to immigration law, hate crimes, sex crimes, and gang-related crime. The bill also required states to establish registries for sexual offenders by September 1997."

So I wonder why Kristian didn't include any of the positives of the bill in her article..

Foreign policy: Bernie Sanders was the only Independent congressman to vote against the Iraq War Resolution. His foreign policy record speaks for itself


It took me an hour to deconstruct this propaganda piece. I simply don't have the time or the will to deconstruct all of them, and that's the point... That's why they're produced at such an exceptional rate. They can't all be combatted, and that's why it's so easy for propaganda to spread.

This was a detailed, thorough analysis of one of your citations. I simply can't do this for all of them, that's why it's so important for you to be able to spot bullshit when you see it before you post it.


All corporate mainstream media has a very specific agenda to sell, that is their entire purpose. That's why they hire pretty thoughtless people who don't rock the boat and pay them millions of dollars a year to say what they want them to say to millions of viewers. It's why Fox News is so successful.

I just spent a considerable amount of time responding to this. I would appreciate a reply from you

Click to expand...

Padawanbater2 said:

-against police body camera regulations
-pro AIPAC, supported $38 Billion to Israel
-refused to prosecute Steve Mnuchin as AG of California after requests from her own office
-opposed legalizing recreational marijuana in CA until May, 2018
-defended California's 'three-strikes law'

"In practice, Harris defended California’s uniquely cruel three-strikes law, the only one in the country which imposed life sentences for a third “strike” that was any minor felony. She urged voters to reject Proposition 66, a ballot initiative that would have reformed the harsh law by making only serious or violent felonies trigger life sentences."

-pushed to criminalize student truancy
-has repeatedly sided with cops/law enforcement in multiple cases of wrongful convictions, i.e. Daniel Larson
-tried to dismiss a case critical of solitary confinement
-fought a suit brought on by a sex workers rights organization to legalize prostitution in CA
-defended CA's death penalty
-a firm proponent of civil asset forfeiture, sponsoring a bill to allow prosecutors to seize profits before charges were filed

Click to expand...

Padawanbater2 said:

Is that really the case, or are you simply very easily swayed by propaganda pieces that confirm your bias?


I read through the first article you posted and was taken aback by the sheer amount of propaganda the author, Bonnie Kristian, managed to push. Let's start with her premise: "Sanders is not as progressive as he says he is"

Immediately, she tries to steer the narrative as "Sanders isn't a progressive, either!", attempting to contrast his record to Hillary Clinton's, who, by every measurable metric, is, and always has been, much more conservative than Bernie Sanders..

Bad start..

Her main examples used are his voting record on the issues of: Gun reform, criminal justice reform, and foreign policy, so let's examine those..

Gun control: Sanders received a D- rating from the NRA in 2018

"Sanders' staff has tried to explain his comparative conservatism here as part and parcel of representing Vermont, a left-wing but gun-friendly state, but either way, his is hardly a super-progressive record on guns."

"comparative conservatism" - that's an interesting choice of words for a man who received a D- rating from the NRA... "super-progressive", as if "comparatively", an 'F' rating is presumably "super-progressive"... What's a D-? Just standard ol' progressive..? If Sanders received a 'C' or 'B' rating from the NRA, Kristian might have a valid point to poke at, but he has a D- rating.. No rational person would look at that and conclude Sanders is soft on gun control regulations. One final point about this hardlined stance on Sanders on gun control; the exact same people levying the criticism about his voting record and his staff's response to it about representing Vermont citizens are the exact same people who vehemently defend Senators like Joe Manchin and Claire McCaskill who actively vote with the Republican party more than 50% of the time, so spare me the faux outrage over Sanders on his gun control regulation record, it just comes off as extremely hypocritical and disingenuous

Criminal justice reform: "The rhetoric is right. But Sanders' record says otherwise." (here, Kristian actually cites 'The Federalist', to validate her point. A well known right wing propaganda website designed to smear Democratic and left wing politicians)

Kristian continues;

"For instance, Sanders sounded a similar note back in April 1994, decrying America's ballooning prison population and its ties to poverty. But just one week later, he voted to pass the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, a centerpiece of Bill Clinton's "tough on crime" shtick, which, among other things, mandated a life sentence for anyone convicted of three drug crimes; expanded the list of death penalty crimes; lowered the age at which a juvenile could be tried as an adult to just 13; and appropriated billions to expand the prison system and hire 100,000 new police officers."

The Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 was written by Joe Biden, supported by Hillary Clinton, and signed by Bill Clinton

It's interesting how Kristian chose to only include the negatives of the bill in the article, most of which Sanders has publicly available statements in which he's clearly opposed to, like drug crimes, and the death penalty..

According to Wikipedia;

"Following the 101 California Street shooting, the 1993 Waco Siege, and other high-profile instances of violent crime, the Act expanded federal law in several ways. One of the most noted sections was the Federal Assault Weapons Ban. Other parts of the Act provided for a greatly expanded federal death penalty, new classes of individuals banned from possessing firearms, and a variety of new crimes defined in statutes relating to immigration law, hate crimes, sex crimes, and gang-related crime. The bill also required states to establish registries for sexual offenders by September 1997."

So I wonder why Kristian didn't include any of the positives of the bill in her article..

Foreign policy: Bernie Sanders was the only Independent congressman to vote against the Iraq War Resolution. His foreign policy record speaks for itself


It took me an hour to deconstruct this propaganda piece. I simply don't have the time or the will to deconstruct all of them, and that's the point... That's why they're produced at such an exceptional rate. They can't all be combatted, and that's why it's so easy for propaganda to spread.

This was a detailed, thorough analysis of one of your citations. I simply can't do this for all of them, that's why it's so important for you to be able to spot bullshit when you see it before you post it.


All corporate mainstream media has a very specific agenda to sell, that is their entire purpose. That's why they hire pretty thoughtless people who don't rock the boat and pay them millions of dollars a year to say what they want them to say to millions of viewers. It's why Fox News is so successful.

I just spent a considerable amount of time responding to this. I would appreciate a reply from you

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Roger A. Shrubber said:

you asked for citations, i gave them to you....if you want to pick them all apart, that's your problem. i don't think your interpretations are valid, and i think the sites you used are at least as biased in the other direction as any i used. so the "facts" depend on whose interpreting them, apparently...you see Bernie as some kind of misunderstood hero, and i see him as a hypocritical piece of shit, who ignores women and minorities,votes to line his own pocket, and talks out of both sides of his mouth about most major issues....
sure this isn't the reply you were hoping for....probably never will be

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schuylaar said:

but minorities and women see Sanders differently than you.

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