I've been fighting Mn problems since I started organic growing and I think that I solved it.
- Thread starter MustangStudFarm
- Start date
MustangStudFarm
Well-Known Member
Kushash
Well-Known Member
Hi @MustangStudFarm!
Just an observation from the pics of mn deficiency shown above in post 21 and your leaf in post 22.
Some deficiencies will develop yellowing from the stem forward, the pics in post 21 appears that way.
Your picture is very similar like the pics in #21 but just want to point out it is yellowing from the other end.
Not sure if it means anything just pointing it out if the info is useful.
MustangStudFarm
Well-Known Member
I kind of cheated and used a pic from online. It was so similar to what I see in my garden that I used it without a second thought. Usually, when I have Mn problems it is compounded with either a Zn or iron def. When I started researching this topic, I would come across a term "iron chlorosis" and it described my problem the best. I think that other crops are not as Mn def sensitive as cannabis, so the problem is not really talked about. So, what I am saying is that with an Mn problem you will usually have a Zn or Fe problem too. Most likely cause would be too much phosphorus. Excessive P will lock out Zn, Mn, and Fe and vice versa. You cannot add Mn sulfate without affecting iron, zinc, and phosphorus(I found out the hard way). This is a reason why you are supposed to chelate the micronutrients and add them together and not individually. This is why I will use TM-7(iron) or Big-6(no iron) because it will add micros in a good ratio to each other. You might see iron chlorosis before Mn def.
iMavrick92
Member
That’s some really good info on growing pains. Never really considered chelating the nutrients all together and adding at once. But once I hear it it makes complete sense. Thank you!!
NoMoreBottles
Well-Known Member
Glad I came across your posts on soil testing. I have been having issues with my last couple runs of soil I made and decided to follow your lead and get a soil test. These reaults are after three runs and reammending at about 50% each time. As you can see most of my numbers are either too high or too low. Its making it difficult for me to understand how to correct deficiencies. My mix started with
1/3 Sphagnum Peat
1/3 Perlite
1/3 alpaca manure/ ewc
1/2 cup Fish Bone Meal 3-16-0
1/2 cup Fish Meal 8-6-0
1/2 cup Crab Meal 4-3-0
1/2 cup Neem Seed Meal 6-1-2
1 cup Kelp Meal 1-0.1-2
1/8 cup Langbeinite 0-0-22
2/3 cup Oyster Shell
1 cup Gypsum
1 cup Basalt
For instance I thought fixing low Mn with manganese sulfate would work but my sulfur numbers are through the roof. I have some 0-11-0 seabird guano that I thought of adding for some P but my Na numbers are high and Im thinking the guano may be salty. The high salt is also making me think that the TM-7 or Big 6 you wrote about would be no good for my low Mn and Zn. You are way ahead of me on figuring this stuff out so if you have any suggestions they would be much appreciated.
MustangStudFarm
Well-Known Member
Flushing your soil is a good way to get rid of excess sodium, it's not that hard. What I did, I added Big6 and then flushed and retested. The micronutrients stayed in the soil but I did flush N, K, Na, S, and a little Ca... You could add more peat/aeration to your soil to get some of the #'s down like Ca and Mg. Don't worry about adding anymore Phosphorus and I'm surprised that yours is so low. The reason you don't want a boat load of Ca/Mg is because you need the K to be 2x the amount shown for cannabis and they have an antagonist relationship, so you want more K than Ca/Mg. Kelp and rock dust don't do crap for your micronutrients(except for Cu). My biggest problem with Big6 was adding it to established plants, they didn't seem to like it at all! So, I would add it to soil before you cook it. Then, I would use Mn sulfate and micro-dose it instead of one big feeding.
I'm not going to lie, I haven't figured out how to solve this Mn problem yet. After reading, it don't look like an easy fix. All of the articles that I read, say that soil with organic matter higher than 6% is ALWAYS going to lock-out Mn. So, you might have to foliar feed to overcome the problem. http://corn.agronomy.wisc.edu/Management/pdfs/a2526.pdf
MustangStudFarm
Well-Known Member
You might want to look into High Brix methods also, it's all about raising micro-nutrients but they don't really have a good guideline. Greensand has a good amount of Mn, so I use Azomite, greensand, and basalt for my rock dusts. I was totally against spraying plants previously, but there is no other way to get trace minerals to your plants. Spray with micronutrients...
MustangStudFarm
Well-Known Member
I just noticed something about the product that you listed, it's not chelated. I'm in the process of trying to solve this Mn problem still. I used Big6 and re-tested my soil and my iron levels skyrocketed and I was at a loss because Big6 don't have iron. Then, I read that chelates have more affinity towards iron than Mn. So, adding chelates actually made my problem worse even though I added Mn and no iron. It was a mind-blower when I read the article talking about chelates. My problems that I was having with Big6 started to make more sense after that. I was also using BioAg's humic/fulvic acid and didn't realize what I was doing wrong.
NewGrower2011
Well-Known Member
@MustangStudFarm are you saying there's an issue/relationship between your use of Big6 and Fulvics (from any vendor for that matter)? I haven't added any further Big6 to my mix after the realization about the sulfates but noticing your mention here and wondering how it relates to my current run as I just gave the gals a good dose of Fulvic in a drench and had used the Big6 earlier on.
MustangStudFarm
Well-Known Member
Man, after having issues after using Big6 I googled the term "Phytotoxicity"(trace minerals and salinity) and it seemed to be spot on. I think that my problem is that I tried to "Fix" my rooted plants with Big6 when I probably should have used it before I planted and gave it time to cook. The plants that I treated with Big-6 went pale yellow and ended up with spots on them. It's strange because the roots looked healthy, but the plants were pale with purple stems. I said fuck it and cut them down. I'll chalk it up as a learning exp. I was so excited about TM-7 and Big 6 but it fucked me in the end, I think. Maybe, I just need to learn how to use it?
The thing about chelates like humic acid is that it will chelate iron before Mn and it will make iron more available, which actually makes the Mn def worse. I can't copy and paste this website, but look at the 2nd page on the right side, it talks about chelating Mn in soil. It blew my mind, "adding Manganese chelate will increase Mn deficiency", so I imagine just using chelate would be the same. http://corn.agronomy.wisc.edu/Management/pdfs/a2526.pdf
I'm sorry because I feel like you fell down my rabbit hole(Soil Savvy and Micronutrients), but I also feel like we will have an advantage when we figure this out. I haven't really figured this out completely and I don't want to feel like I am spreading bad information. It's one of the reasons that I haven't been sharing much lately. I went from spider mites to phytotoxicity. I want to know how these people get high brix #'s because they always say that it is directly related to how much micronutrients are in the plants. Tad Hussey(Kis Organics) said that rock dust and kelp don't have enough micronutrients to be sufficient, so he had Dr. Steve Solomon on a podcast explaining the same thing. So, I'm kind of at a loss right now. I think that I'll let my soil age longer and I started more seeds last night. I'm thinking about talking to Jeremy Silva of Build A Soil and asking him about the chelates in Big 6 and see what he says.
MustangStudFarm
Well-Known Member
I'm guilty of the same thing!!!
NewGrower2011
Well-Known Member
So far I'm not seeing any issues with having used it in combination with anything else specifically other than my last soil test showed the high sulfur levels but I definitely could see where getting the ratio/amount wrong could complicate things. It's all a balancing act for sure.
Will be interesting to compare the next soil test to see how much those micro levels change over the course of 1 run.
Will be interesting to compare the next soil test to see how much those micro levels change over the course of 1 run.
NoMoreBottles
Well-Known Member
I was also thinking that adding more peat and perlite could help get those numbers down some. With a ph of 6.58 I can afford to have the peat lower it a bit.
Well water from tap is 34 ppm and I had been running into calcium deficiencies before I switched to making my own mix so I think I got carried away with gypsum. It would explain my very high sulfur numbers which I think is locking out other nutrients. Leaf damage seems to confirm that. Some of the other amendments I use also contain calcium. Not sure if my high calcium level is causing any lockout on top of that. Working with about 100 gallons of soil currently in 2 55 gallon tubs (grow in 7 & 10 gal fabric pots) My tentative plan is to dig out the soil mixing kiddie pool add more peat and perlite after a bit of a flush. Also picked up some greensand so I may add that to help with long term micronutrients. Have another soil savvy test on the way that I will use once I get this mixed up.
MustangStudFarm
Well-Known Member
Too much sulfur is only going to lower your Ph and it don't really lock anything out, it only affects things through Ph. Calcium is more likely to lock out K and Mg. They are called the "base saturation" and it took me a while to understand why they call it a base, but they all raise the Ph as in acid/base. Cannabis is a K sensitive plant and it needs 2x the amount of K compared to regular food crops. The creator of Soil Savvy went on a podcast and explained it. https://www.kisorganics.com/pages/cannabis-cultivation-and-science-podcast-episode-17
I guess that I am asking if you are showing signs of K def? The serrated edges of the leaves will show it in advanced deficiency. I find it extremely hard to judge conditions based on what the plant looks like, so many things look the same...
NoMoreBottles
Well-Known Member
Your last sentence is exactly where I am. I do have leaves that look like they could be K def or Sulfur tox. Looking at this chart https://www.loudclouds.co/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/marijuana-deficiency-chart-jorge-cervantes.jpg and my sample numbers I was leaning towards thinking it was from too much sulfur. Calcium locking out other things seems like my most likely problem. My soil savvy test came today so I need to get moving on doing something with this mix. Going to add more peat and some extra perlite. I know the greensand I picked up is for the longer term so I will probably add that too. Definitely not going too add anything that contains calcium or sulfur.
MustangStudFarm
Well-Known Member
Sulfur only causes Ph issues and any problem from sulfur will be from Ph swings, it really don't lock out anything on it's own. High calcium will bump sulfur if you leach it out. I just got my soil savvy test back and my Na is still 3x too high, so I'm going to run some rain water through it to flush it out. My wife's teachers don't like the term "flush" and she has been correcting me by saying "leaching" instead lol. She is going to Oklahoma State University for Horticulture, but it's mostly for farmers in fields, so there is little info about organic gardening at her school. Really was a bummer to find out because her teachers don't know how to answer our questions...
BTW, if you are trying to mix a new soil before getting it tested, you should wait for it to "cook" before sending a sample. I was always getting strange numbers back if I would mix soil and send it in the same week. Also, keep in mind that it is a solubility test, so it will basically give you a snap shot of what your soil is up to in a 7 day period. One of my 1st tests, I added oyster shell flour 2days before a soil sample, because the Ph was low, and it completely skewed my test results. New peat will always show low Ph, so I have a Kelway Ph meter and I don't send in a soil test until the Ph looks normal.
NoMoreBottles
Well-Known Member
Definitely going to wait 3-4 weeks before I take and send the sample in. Hoping to run some water through my mix then add the peat a bit more perlite and some greensand this weekend and get it going. The test lists the optimal ppm range for K at 30-55. If it needs 2x that than 60-110 would be a range to shoot for? With mine at 101.84 it should be ok but the calcium is most likely locking it out it seems. I will run water to leach that out which should also help lower my sulfur and salt. Magnesium could probably come down too. Not sure where that will leave me with K and micros. I was thinking about adding about 10% more peat to the mix, which would be 10 gallons added to 100. Already interested to see new results and havent even started yet. Thank you for your feedback.
MustangStudFarm
Well-Known Member
I would just focus on getting your micronutrients, everything else seems fine really. What I have learned from these test is to look for deficiencies, abundance don't always hurt.
Kushash
Well-Known Member
I wish I could agree but I feel it's the other way around, toxicities are the problem with your soil IMO.
I hope I'm wrong if being wrong means you eventually get the results you are looking for.