Importance of quality genetics?

Geozander

Well-Known Member
Anyone who has browsed any of the online seed suppliers sites, will have noticed huge differences in prices. For what are effectively the same strain. Take white widow as an example, now you can get ww seeds ranging from cheap prices. For example nirvana. Up to the really expensive. Like the doggies nuts. Now my question has to be. Is it worth paying an absolute fortune for good genetics, or will the cheaper beans give the same end result?
 
depends on your $$ situation.

I buy strictly from Attitude. Never a problem and their beans are always great for what I use them for.

Generally no, the $$ isnt worth the difference. For the general grower that cant tell the difference between a few % of CNB or THC than go with the middle of the road guys, Attitude.
 

Geozander

Well-Known Member
I always order from attitude myself too. It had always puzzled me why there was such a difference in pricing from seed to seed for the same strain. I use greenhouse seeds pretty much exclusively, and they def aint expensive, and always seem to get good results. If paying for the most expensive beans, i would expect something which was far superior than the cheaper beans, in the real world that aint gonna happen.
 

jats

Well-Known Member
most of the big seed dealers sell breeders seeds...if the breeder is the same but the price is not then......I guess some peep want to make more $ than others...it prob pays to shop around
 

Geozander

Well-Known Member
I understand it pays to shop around. But what i am getting at is you can pay 20 quid for 10 beans, which are described as white widow, yet for 10 ww beans from another breeder you could pay 150 quid for 10. The question was, whether the expensive beans would produce better smoke at the end of the day. Or would the 20 quid beans produce as good a smoke.
 

Brick Top

New Member
In reality they are not essentially the same strain and definitely not "effectively" the same strain. There is no legal protection to a strain name where if a breeder has a hit with it any other breeder cannot then take similar plants but of different genetics and in effect create a new strain that to some degree or another may share in part some similarities with the original strain and then keeping that breeder from marketing it under the same name.
 
It is smart business sense. A breeder has a hit, you know what his basic recipe was so you follow the basics so you can claim the same basic combination but your genetics will be different and you may go about it in a somewhat different route but in the end you have something you can call the same thing as the original.

The original brings, and deserves, a higher price but you sells yours a whole lot cheaper and for all those out there who really want to grow the real deal but just can’t spend that much on genetics they allow themselves to be fooled that they will be getting all that close to the original by purchasing something that is genetically different but in their price range but most importantly carries the same name as what the buyer wants so that validates their choice. It is the strain name they want in their price range so that is all that matters to them.
 
I am not saying that all knockoffs stink or that some are not good values but anyone who buys one for the name and not for what it actually gives them being what they actually want is picking their genetics poorly. When you look at knockoffs you pretty much have to get past the shared name and see if what they give you is what you want and of course if it fits your budget and see it as just being a different strain instead of being the one you want but aren’t buying.
 
In the case of Doggies Nuts I do at least give them credit for calling their version White Widow #1. That at least denotes some difference or change, though to many it will imply an advancement when that in fact may or may not be the case, but at least they basically said this is supposed to be different, this is actually ours instead of using just the name and like so many breeders of White Widow do, use the very same advertising copy about the original White Widow about how it became so famous and popular in the coffee houses ..etc … you read the same copy under most breeders knockoff White Widow and that is misleading because that implies to people that it is the real deal instead of a knockoff.
 
But that explains the difference in price. The original deserves it, the rest don’t but depending on how much they think they can get for their version they will price it accordingly and hope the famous name alone carries sales on and on and that they do not have to rely on their own genetic dabbling to secure their financial future.

When it comes to purchasing good genetics and if it is worth it depends on two things really, if someone can actually get enough out of the genetics with their system to justify the expense and then the main one that trumps all else is if someone perceives it to be a value.
 
If you give the very best genetics in the world to an inexperienced grower with a less than adequate setup unless they just plain kill it off or totally butcher it they will likely end up with some amount of something that is pretty good. If it lives to harvest its genetics will still at least keep it pretty good … but in the hands of a very experienced grower with an optimal setup the difference between the two results could be astounding.
 
In that case you can not weaken or lessen quality genetics but you can get less out of great genetics that are there to be had due to various factors that could come into play but you still have the cushion of great genetics backing you up.
 
Now give that same ultra-experienced grower with an optimal setup some Roadside Red beans to grow and the very most he will end up with is the best example of Roadside Red that could be found. It will be genetically limited so no matter what could be done nothing will take it beyond its genetic limits. They can be totally maxed out to absolute perfection but they cannot be taken beyond that.
 
Good genetics are the key to any final outcome. They will not guarantee great but they guarantee you a chance at great but when dealing with poor genetics … well you can’t make chicken salad out of chicken shit no matter how much mayonnaise you use.
 

Puffster

Well-Known Member
so how do you tell who is the orignator of what strain.not strictly by price?high price would give the percption of quality,but does it make it so?which beckons back to my original question,WHOS IS WHAT?
 

Brick Top

New Member
most of the big seed dealers sell breeders seeds...if the breeder is the same but the price is not then......I guess some peep want to make more $ than others...it prob pays to shop around



If you have every been in business you would not be so quick to assume that just because someone has a higher price for the same product that they just want to make more money and make it faster.

So many different things can factor into the pricing of something where there can be cases where a business that sells an item for the lowest price that can be found can earn more profit off each individual sale of that item than a place that has the exact same item for the very highest price.
 
Without any real knowledge of how the entire production/wholesaling/retail system is setup and knowing the workings and differences between the various seedbanks it would be impossible to judge if anyone is actually overpricing anything based on what they themselves have to pay for their goods and then all operating costs added and then be able to see if there appears to be an unduly high markup or not.
 
My personal opinion …. almost genetics are overpriced.

Look at how few true standout strains there have been over say maybe the last decade or decade and a half, and that is like breeder release dates and not when the strain may have been originated in California or Indiana a decade or two earlier than it made its way to Holland.

Sure every year there are cup winners but every year there are Academy Award winners too but that doesn’t mean each year films get better or that this years winner really is better than "Gone With The Wind."
 
I understand that operating costs do go up so there will always be some slow continual price increasing but it seems like for about the last decade or a little more that the pricing increase has more than outpaced the quality increases, both in number of standout strains and overall quality offered to the public.
 
I see what I call warning track fly outs being marketed as being homeruns.

To me many start out to look like they will make it out of the park, they have the height and it looks like they may have the range and people start to stand up to cheer and then while pressed up against the outfield fence the outfielder reaches up and easily grabs it and it turned out all the excitement was for nothing.

I see stuff that would half accurately describe that will be touted as fantastic and the latest and greatest when after you pause a moment and compare them to the zillion other strains out there that are very similar in any number of ways you realize that it is just another brick in the wall and the one being touted as being the latest and the greatest is really only another long fly out. But it is still priced like a homerun.
 
Buyers/growers have been sold this bill of goods saying that things just keep getting better and better and with it the prices creep up and up and what used to be very high dollar prices are now just sort of expensive beans and what used to be upper-average priced beans are now the least expensive you can find … and guess what … most aren’t better today and some aren’t as good as some still existing older strains and a number of strains that were discontinued due to lack of sales that was caused not by a lack of quality but instead a lack of popularity.
 
But as long as buyers continue to willingly pay more and more breeders and seedbanks will gleefully ask for more and more.
 
As a wise man once said; "You can't cheat an honest man. Never give a sucker an even break or smarten up a chump."
 

Brick Top

New Member
so how do you tell who is the orignator of what strain.not strictly by price?high price would give the percption of quality,but does it make it so?which beckons back to my original question,WHOS IS WHAT?

You can research strains and especially in the case of cup winners normally it is not all that hard to find out what an original was and whose it was.
 
Things do get confusing of you do not follow the bouncing ball like when Shantibaba sold out his portion of Green House Seeds and left with his genetics, including the original White Widow and the original White Rhino, and opened up Mr. Nice Seeds (all along with other people involved in each step of course) and he renamed the original White Widow Black Widow and the original White Rhino Medicine Man.

Well there was then a flood of White Widow and for a while White Rhino knockoffs but if someone follows the bouncing ball and or researches it isn’t hard to do.

There are many sites on the Internet to reference about marijuana other than RIU or other sites that are basically the same.
 
One of the best places to look first is SeedFinder http://en.seedfinder.eu/ It has 1,764 varieties of strains made by 111 different breeders.

In a good number of each strain you can find its lineage and you can see what it was made from and then looking at something else you may see it has a shared parent or something that would then make it appealing to you when it otherwise might not have been.
 
I do chuckle at times when I read things written by people who in at least some cases seem to have at least a fairly sound amount of knowledge about growing but at the same time do not seem to know much if anything about strains and breeders and originals and knockoffs, but they sure do have their all time favorites (even if they do not know if they grew the original or not) and most all of them know the name of the current flavor of the month strain.
 

DoeEyed

Well-Known Member
Anyone who has browsed any of the online seed suppliers sites, will have noticed huge differences in prices. For what are effectively the same strain. Take white widow as an example, now you can get ww seeds ranging from cheap prices. For example nirvana. Up to the really expensive. Like the doggies nuts. Now my question has to be. Is it worth paying an absolute fortune for good genetics, or will the cheaper beans give the same end result?
By and large, I think whatever is popular at the moment, tends to cost more than whatever isn't. Otherwise, you'll just have to reasearch your favorite strain to find who really does have the original and/or good genetics for it.:peace:
 

Puffster

Well-Known Member
perception very rarely follows reality as most adults know.creative marketing will often get you places the quality of your product wont,but you can only fool so many so often.for me its hard to sift through so many sites,opinions.whom do you trust on the internet?good genetics is only gonna help my meager knowledge.but shit their are so many opinions i guess it comes down to your own knowledge as to what you percieve to be the best bang for your buck is.
 

Brick Top

New Member
perception very rarely follows reality as most adults know.creative marketing will often get you places the quality of your product wont,but you can only fool so many so often.for me its hard to sift through so many sites,opinions.whom do you trust on the internet?good genetics is only gonna help my meager knowledge.but shit their are so many opinions i guess it comes down to your own knowledge as to what you percieve to be the best bang for your buck is.

If I fully understood you I would agree to a point. Perception does to a point shape reality but it cannot override it unless we are talking about someone who might believe themselves to be the king of a clandestine miniature nation found below the floorboards in his bathroom.
 
Certain things are not ones of perception but instead thing totally involving the actual perception of proven solid fact. If someone believes otherwise just because that is their perception it does not create a new reality making them right or creates some parallel alternate reality making both beliefs right.
 
It only means they were wrong.

I believe everyone should make their best attempt to get the most bang for their buck and I think that is what bugs me so when I see something become the rage for a while and then the whole line takes on an aura of quality by association and it takes off when it was all based on someone’s perception and not on a reality and in the process many become blinded to many really great strains that while not always among those that might be considered to be the most inexpensive are still so good for their price that is amazes me how so few people will talk about them or begin to consider them during their strain searching process.
 
The problem is that the perception of many is to limiting. They place to much importance on certain things and to little importance on others and they end up with a mediocre but really keep strain that they then cover up their actual displeasure with by saying it was a matter of personal preference and they loved what they purchased.
 
Yep, they don’t say .. well they sure got me with that one … I was slickered that time ….. they bamboozled me right good.
 
Instead they save face and pull a restaurant critic act and write a rave review in return for the free meal the place tossed in the night he brought his mistress there to eat that will assure the next time he takes his wife there none of the staff will comment on the difference in his female company that night.
 
Everyone comes out smelling like a rose, no one looks bad and the perpetuation of the fame of the mediocre strain and the entire line it is part of continues and increases.
 

Puffster

Well-Known Member
i kinda equate it to buying a car.sure certain brands make lines that are percieved to be a good vehicle,however at the end of the days its still a hyundai or whatever.that still doesnt mean the consumer isnt happy w/ their purchase and hasnt gotten good value.the seed question can be debated on so many different levels,from different perspectives its a crapshot more often then not?plus you have to go on trust the stoner mailing your shit didnt get punched in the nuts by his girlfriend that morning for leaving cap off the toothpaste!
 

Brick Top

New Member
i kinda equate it to buying a car.sure certain brands make lines that are percieved to be a good vehicle,however at the end of the days its still a hyundai or whatever.that still doesnt mean the consumer isnt happy w/ their purchase and hasnt gotten good value.the seed question can be debated on so many different levels,from different perspectives its a crapshot more often then not?plus you have to go on trust the stoner mailing your shit didnt get punched in the nuts by his girlfriend that morning for leaving cap off the toothpaste!

I spent my life in sales and I know that something is only worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it … of course that excludes exceptions of crazy people who would offer $1.00 for a Mercedes Benz and then try to argue that is all it is worth to him so that is its true worth.
 
But just because someone is willing to pay a certain mount and is later happy with their purchase they received a value. It only means they were happy with their purchase.
 
If someone purchases a strain from Dewey, Cheatum & Howe Seedbank for $125.00 for a pack of 5 feminized beans and they grow them out and it is the best herb they ever smoked, they totally love it, they know they made the perfect decision as to what strain to pick. They are happy, they found a value for their dollar.
The following day they find that they could have purchased the exact same strain through Honest Abe’s Bean-Bank for $60.00. Will they still believe they received a value? They will still be every bit as much in love with the strain and before but their previously held perception of value for their dollar has been totally shattered.
 
Receiving value goes beyond the perception of joy or happiness.
 
When dealing with knockoffs the pricing difference will not be as vast as in my of course made up example, that is unless someone would factor in Doggies Nuts White Widow #1 with all the White Widow knockoffs but in some cases not a large amount of money, sometimes even saving it instead of spending more, can make a big difference in what you actually get for your dollar and that is where value is found.
 
That is unless personal preference is the only yardstick used to measure value. At that point all else goes out the door and regardless of price and value for that price, or a lack thereof the person is totally satisfied so they received a value and if basing everything on that and on that alone what you said would be perfectly accurate.

So you said you might have to be concerned of the stoner handling your order was, I believe you said, "punched in the nuts by his girlfriend." I am unsure if that means his eyes would still be watering and crossed so he would mess up your order or if he would be upset so he might be likely to take out his anger at his girlfriend by sending some stranger an inaccurate bean order or if it was something of a self loathing surfacing in what you wrote by calling the person handling the order a stoner so that means right there he or she cannot be all that dependable at best now, right? Maybe you walked by a mirror shortly before coming up with that one and it was in the back of your mind?
 
The what if game could be played both ways. What if the order the stoner is filling out is going to a girl with the same first name as his first love so to get back at the dame who nutted him he loads up the order with a few extra packs of this and that when no one is looking or maybe he does that with every female name order all day or all week as his quiet revenge?
 
If you are going to look for things to if they might happen so maybe I better concern yourself with them you better hope that the next time you go to Starbucks or maybe McDonalds where some female might be handling what you will eat and or drink and she happens to be PMSing and you by luck just happen to look like her boyfriend who left the toilet seat up last night … and may God help you over what she will do to whatever it is you will consume.
 
Hey, if you really need more to worry yourself over consider this.

While handing dollar bills or maybe even fives and tens and twenties did you ever stop to pause a moment and consider what the odds are that the bill you are presently holding was at some time or another in a strippers butt-crack?
 
Be sure to wash your hands after handling money.
 

Puffster

Well-Known Member
money is proably the filthest thing out there .ewwww!if my mind worked like that i wouldnt have the wonderful life i have.each an every day is a new experiance an to be enjoyed.ive been extremly blessed in my life.ive cheated both the law an death more than once.whatever/whenever i CHOOSE to respond here on riu is usually tongue ain cheek humor.different poeple take life differently as im sure we all realize.there is very little of an opinion written that cannot be attacked an made to look bad.i personnally have tried to be polite w/ you brick and engage you because as a grower you proably have very few peers.having said that im telling you your an ASSHOLE of the first degree an to fuck off!!do you have any family or friends,cause the way you are on here it doesnt seem possible.
 

spiked1

Well-Known Member
I have 2 types of White Rhino
1 from Greenhouse seeds is awsome, very fast growing with huge leaves and needs lots of nutes.
The other one is from Nirvana and it's totally crap, I planted 8 seeds 2 months ago and they are still only 6 inches high and I think I will trash them as not worth while.
Both strains were grown together in exactly the same way.
So in this instance I now believe in buying quality genetics.
But as Bricktop said, do some research, I've been thinking about White Widow and AK-47 and ended up buying Black Widow from Mr. Nice, and AK-47 from Serious Seeds, both of whom are the original breeders.
But all the knockoffs do make it confusing. :roll:
 
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