I'm in the mood to abuse my plant

Budley Doright · Oct 31, 2017

Lucky Luke said:
What part? Where I say there are cloned comparison grows? Which is a fact- look for them they are around. Or where I give the perfectly reasonable argument that they may have been more controlled testing and use the terms "preety sure" in an earlier response or "I think that their must of been" in this one?- Which I have no idea how someone would take either of those as coming close to a factual statement.

Yes, corporations etc keep secrets. if you have paid for the research why give it to your competitors? A good friend of mine is a research scientist and its how he makes an income.

I get it, you like trolling me but your just becoming predictable and boring now.

I thought I'd respond seeings how it was me that was doubting the whole "we'll keep defoliating a secret so we can grow the biggest plant" thing lol. I am more referring to scholarly studies not corporate .... hell we'd still think cigarettes are good for you if that was the case lol. Maybe, could be, there must be, we could go on for hours lol, all I'm saying is I haven't seen any regarding DEFOILATION ( just had to do that cap thing so we're not confused) but would love to see some.

Lucky Luke · Oct 31, 2017

Budley Doright said:
I thought I'd respond seeings how it was me that was doubting the whole "we'll keep defoliating a secret so we can grow the biggest plant" thing lol. I am more referring to scholarly studies not corporate .... hell we'd still think cigarettes are good for you if that was the case lol. Maybe, could be, there must be, we could go on for hours lol, all I'm saying is I haven't seen any regarding DEFOILATION ( just had to do that cap thing so we're not confused) but would love to see some.

Ive been told people, like some breeder named Neville?? Did/ do 10,000 plant selections so I don't think its far fetched. The post you quoted I was referring to defoliation..
And the cig companies did lots of testing over decades and didnt share it with the public.

Not that it matters much, Most people who talk defoliating really mean trimming and then its a whole can of worms!

And when you going to write a book? id read your life story.

Budley Doright · Oct 31, 2017

Flowki said:
Telling people not to bother doing something that has collectively shown to hurt yield if you get it wrong and marginally increase yields (subjective) if you get it right is not a bad thing to do. It simply is not proven for consistent, dependable yield increase over none defoliation, fact of that is this very topics existence. Those who ''make it work'' take off certain leaves at certain times etc etc leaving a lot of room for error, for a potential marginal increase. The amount of yield you stand to lose by experimenting and acquiring the skill to ''defo properly'' will counter the increase for many crops to come. They say it also depends on certain strains and thus also effects how much and when you should defoliate. That is far too complex, to the point my BS alarm is ringing at worse and is it even worth the hassle of learning at best.

My eyes are wide open, trust me on that. If convincing evidence was put forward for a guaranteed repeatable increase of yield by heavy defoliation.. guess what I would be doing?. Coco > guaranteed yield increase. Better lights/spread > guaranteed yield increase. Fan speed controller to maintain correct temps > guaranteed yield increase. Topping > guaranteed yield increase. Correct nute ratio/strength/microbes > guaranteed yield increase. Set backs and mistakes will hinder those results but you'd still likely see a yield increase all be it lower. More than can be said for getting defoliation ''wrong''.

I think you are missing the point entirely in order to push and apply some freedom of speech ideology into growing. They can well do it.. but a smart grower would follow the tried and tested methods UNLESS they were in a position to properly experiment with this particular method. As I've said.. most are not because they simply don't have the means OR comprehend just how difficult this particular experiment is. Proof of that once again is this threads existence.

People reading this thread and curious about defoliation are who I am interested in getting to. If you do this you stand a very high chance of losing yield. Do the things I've suggested and various other proven methods, you will be happy. Rationally boring maybe, but never running out of smoke.

No Ill never be happy trying only the proven methods lol. And he's not even done the experiment yet lol. Will he lose yield? Probably but again it's not done and even with one attempt and two plants it's a bullshit attempt but an attempt none the less and more power to him for trying. I doubt he's gonna change anyone's mind that what he is doing is gonna get a whole bunch of people switching to pulling leaves. Like what is he gonna lose, a few grams, if that's the line between running out the he better grow more lol. Hell he even got Doc interested in doing some research into it so yes something good has happened

. This has nothing to do with free speech but more about trying shit for yourself and learning in the process and people not jumping all over him for trying even though it's not a scientific, controlled experiment. What is the perfect t light? Is it LED, CMH, HPS, and the multitude of others, I don't know but will try a few "myself" and if I try quantum boards are you going to tell me I'm wasting my time because there are better? All I'm saying is really why cares, sit back smoke one and see what transpires lol. Sorry if I'm rambling, just smoked my after work fatty lol.

Budley Doright · Oct 31, 2017

Lucky Luke said:
Ive been told people, like some breeder named Neville?? Did/ do 10,000 plant selections so I don't think its far fetched. The post you quoted I was referring to defoliation..
And the cig companies did lots of testing over decades and didnt share it with the public.

Not that it matters much, Most people who talk defoliating really mean trimming and then its a whole can of worms!

We did a few 500 plant grows and honestly there was plants that were pruned and others not and no difference that was noticeable. Hell I get bored now a do it and still no bigger lol. It would be nice if some university decided to do a few studies on growing bigger better weed and perhaps we may almost be there, who knows

.

Budley Doright · Oct 31, 2017

Lucky Luke said:
Ive been told people, like some breeder named Neville?? Did/ do 10,000 plant selections so I don't think its far fetched. The post you quoted I was referring to defoliation..
And the cig companies did lots of testing over decades and didnt share it with the public.

Not that it matters much, Most people who talk defoliating really mean trimming and then its a whole can of worms!

And when you going to write a book? id read your life story.

I capped the defoilation in regards to people thinking I meant general research and not the topic at hand

.

Flowki · Oct 31, 2017

Budley Doright said:
No Ill never be happy trying only the proven methods lol. And he's not even done the experiment yet lol. Will he lose yield? Probably but again it's not done and even with one attempt and two plants it's a bullshit attempt but an attempt none the less and more power to him for trying. I doubt he's gonna change anyone's mind that what he is doing is gonna get a whole bunch of people switching to pulling leaves. Like what is he gonna lose, a few grams, if that's the line between running out the he better grow more lol. Hell he even got Doc interested in doing some research into it so yes something good has happened . This has nothing to do with free speech but more about trying shit for yourself and learning in the process and people not jumping all over him for trying even though it's not a scientific, controlled experiment. What is the perfect t light? Is it LED, CMH, HPS, and the multitude of others, I don't know but will try a few "myself" and if I try quantum boards are you going to tell me I'm wasting my time because there are better? All I'm saying is really why cares, sit back smoke one and see what transpires lol. Sorry if I'm rambling, just smoked my after work fatty lol.

I didn't say don't experiment at all, just not on this particular method as it's so low down the list of certain improvement for most. The other comparisons you are making are irrational or irrelevant. The progressive skill of interpreting and learning from other peoples gains and mistakes is not a negative. In-fact that is how you will gain the experience to do a meaningful experiment, rather than joining the thousands of other newb to avg growers with inflated ego/naivety to succeed where the other stretched and fried plants failed. This Is fools gold for such growers, and for you to recommend going down that path is bad advice. You know that getting defoliation wrong will certainly reduce yield, so why encourage that path when you can not even offer advice on how to do it correct?. I get it, you won't be held responsible so it's easy to have loose lips.

DR.who is actually in a position to do something like this. People who are always growing diff strains, not using cuttings, can't keep healthy plants, changing feed/setup conditions all the time, not dialed in, etc. They can't compare shit.

The gains from heavy defoliation are not said to be all that much, should it be true. To actually recognize and confirm those gains means you need experience of pushing the selected strains to max potential so you have a solid base to compare the defoliated plants too. It's more than just a simple one time side by side to confirm something like this. No shortedge of those one time side by siders, but here we are. The fact that one time side by sides are not conclusively solving this issue only goes to show the gains are small at best.

Budley Doright · Oct 31, 2017

Flowki said:
I didn't say don't experiment at all, just not on this particular method as it's so low down the list of certain improvement for most. The other comparisons you are making are irrational or irrelevant. The progressive skill of interpreting and learning from other peoples gains and mistakes is not a negative. In-fact that is how you will gain the experience to do a meaningful experiment, rather than joining the thousands of other newb to avg growers with inflated ego/naivety to succeed where the other stretched and fried plants failed. This Is fools gold for such growers, and for you to recommend going down that path is bad advice. You know that getting defoliation wrong will certainly reduce yield, so why encourage that path when you can not even offer advice on how to do it correct?. I get it, you won't be held responsible so it's easy to have loose lips.

DR.who is actually in a position to do something like this. People who are always growing diff strains, not using cuttings, can't keep healthy plants, changing feed/setup conditions all the time, not dialed in, etc. They can't compare shit.

The gains from heavy defoliation are not said to be all that much, should it be true. To actually recognize and confirm those gains means you need experience of pushing the selected strains to max potential so you have a solid base to compare the defoliated plants too. It's more than just a simple one time side by side to confirm something like this. No shortedge of those one time side by siders, but here we are. The fact that one time side by sides are not conclusively solving this issue only goes to show the gains are small at best.

Actually you brought up lighting among other things so I picked one, so irrational as it may seem you brought it up

. And I guess it's up to the observer (you) to decide what should be tried and not tried, wether it's relevent or not? Like I said I tried it, not a controlled peer reviewed test but after trying it I decided it wasn't for me. That's all it took no more, no less.

KryptoBud · Oct 31, 2017

Xs121 said:
To an extent I agree with what you're saying. However, I think, there's a significant differences in ethylene production between outdoor vs indoor plants. For one, outdoor plants are subject to higher level of biotic and abiotic stress regardless how rich is the soil where as indoor plants are more protected and in a (somewhat)controlled environment. Sure, eventually the leaves will be shed but the delay in ethylene production would also means the delay of ripening or maturation process depending of course on factors that influence the rate of ethylene production.

Good info though.
Still going? lol
Off topic for a sec.... I found this article that I think is really really interesting and I believe a must share.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/12/23/the-intelligent-plant

This site has some good info about plant hormones if anyone's interested.
Journal of Experimental Botany
https://academic.oup.com/jxb/article/63/9/3499/583689/Plant-hormone-interactions-innovative-targets-for#9431760

Xs121 · Oct 31, 2017

KryptoBud said:
This site has some good info about plant hormones if anyone's interested.
Journal of Experimental Botany
https://academic.oup.com/jxb/article/63/9/3499/583689/Plant-hormone-interactions-innovative-targets-for#9431760

A must read for sure

Zarg · Oct 31, 2017

Xs121 said:
Spam?

Dude are you the post police or something? Chill man.

If you want it to be a serious posting....how about this....I'm defoliating my plant which is about maybe 6-7 weeks into flower and wants your expert opinion(you seem to be the expert here) if this technique would work or not.

Now add something constructive.

i dont know if its experiment or not, im sure everything as been tried at one point or another. like obviously halogens are bad for your plants, the plant will force create THC as a sunblocking agent. so, what about drying your plants as a whole, hanging with halogens on them, as they die wont they try to create photosynthesis as long as it can, and using a bad UV light to make it force more THC into your final yield. i dont know tho, everything is worth trying.

Xs121 · Oct 31, 2017

Flowki said:
I think you are missing the point entirely in order to push and apply some freedom of speech ideology into growing. They can well do it.. but a smart grower would follow the tried and tested methods UNLESS they were in a position to properly experiment with this particular method. As I've said.. most are not because they simply don't have the means OR comprehend just how difficult this particular experiment is. Proof of that once again is this threads existence.

I think you're the one that's missing the point. This thread is not about how to grow mj correctly otherwise I would have declared specifically that 'defoliation is the way to increase yield' then you could correct me on that one.

Why do you want to ramp down my throat your own philosophy? Do I do that to anybody? Did I insist that my way is the only way? What is my 'unscientific' experiment have to do with being a smart grower?

A smart grower will do whatever he/she thinks is good for him or her, period.

A smart grower will listen to people like you, like me, or whoever who has an opinion and will decide for him/her what is best for him or her.

How would you know if a person can comprehend how difficult this particular experiment is? Do you? Do you even realize the hypothesis behind this experiment? All you know is that this experiment is about a defoliated plant and missing leaves. Do you even look at the bigger picture of this experiment?

Let me ask you something, since you're implying that you're so knowledgeable in this field. What is the relationship of roots to defoliation? What is the relationship of Cytokinin and Gibberellic acid to defoliation? Do you know? Heck, do you even really know the flowering structure of cannabis? I bet none of you understood the flowering structure of cannabis. Because if you do then maybe you can answer this...what are the 3 main structures of a plant...any plant for that matter aside from the root? I'm gonna give you a hint, it's not stem, leaves, and flowers.

For the longest time, the flowering structure of cannabis puzzles me. I've been devouring any botanical phytomorphology of cannabis flowering structure and aside from the basic form there's none existed that deal deeply into the flowering structure, none.

Xs121 · Oct 31, 2017

Flowki said:
My eyes are wide open, trust me on that. If convincing evidence was put forward for a guaranteed repeatable increase of yield by heavy defoliation.. guess what I would be doing?. Coco > guaranteed yield increase. Better lights/spread > guaranteed yield increase. Fan speed controller to maintain correct temps > guaranteed yield increase. Topping > guaranteed yield increase. Correct nute ratio/strength/microbes > guaranteed yield increase. Set backs and mistakes will hinder those results but you'd still likely see a yield increase all be it lower. More than can be said for getting defoliation ''wrong''.

And what are all those tried and tested things you said that everybody should follow? Dont you realize that at some point in time somebody might have actually did an informal experiments on the very methods you said that are tried and tested? If we have to follow your logic, the world would be starving by now or this planet have turned into an arid planet. The ancient farmers believe too that their way is the best way since its tried and tested.

A lot of serious experiments are started by informal experiments which normally begins with....what if

Chunky Stool · Oct 31, 2017

Zarg said:
i dont know if its experiment or not, im sure everything as been tried at one point or another. like obviously halogens are bad for your plants, the plant will force create THC as a sunblocking agent. so, what about drying your plants as a whole, hanging with halogens on them, as they die wont they try to create photosynthesis as long as it can, and using a bad UV light to make it force more THC into your final yield. i dont know tho, everything is worth trying.

Creative idea, but photosynthesis requires water.
Here's a brain fart for ya... switch from soil to hydro when you chop. Plants would have to be trimmed like a lollypop. Immediately after chopping, put the main stem in a 5 gallon bucket of water with a hole cut in the lid. Maybe add a little potassium sulfate to the water for a citrus profile. Then just keep going with the same light cycle until the desired fade is achieved.
Basically the bucket is like a giant vase, and your pot plant is a giant flower. Give it a fresh cut & stick it in the vase.
Wadaya think?

I'm baked like a potato. :eyesmoke:

Zarg · Oct 31, 2017

Chunky Stool said:
Creative idea, but photosynthesis requires water.
Here's a brain fart for ya... switch from soil to hydro when you chop. Plants would have to be trimmed like a lollypop. Immediately after chopping, put the main stem in a 5 gallon bucket of water with a hole cut in the lid. Maybe add a little potassium sulfate to the water for a citrus profile. Then just keep going with the same light cycle until the desired fade is achieved.
Basically the bucket is like a giant vase, and your pot plant is a giant flower. Give it a fresh cut & stick it in the vase.
Wadaya think?

I'm baked like a potato.

i actually use soil in a bubbeler (not ideal but it works) but that gives me the idea i can dump the soil and leave it in the container its in, i use 2 liters each with their own air hose.

Chunky Stool · Oct 31, 2017

Zarg said:
i actually use soil in a bubbeler (not ideal but it works) but that gives me the idea i can dump the soil and leave it in the container its in, i use 2 liters each with their own air hose.

Why do you need soil?
Has this ever worked for you? Seems like a ph problem waiting to happen.

whitebb2727 · Oct 31, 2017

Buba Blend said:
They would not need it to stay healthy. Growth would slow or stop but they would be fine as soon as the lights came on 5 days later.
That is not just me, I think most soil growers here would agree that they would have the same experience.

Depends on strain. There have been a couple people post plants that were in soil with power out for 7 days on one and around 4 or 5 on the other. The 7 day ones were mostly dead. They could recover but not worth it. The 4 to 5 day ones looked rough and yellow.

The whole thing about hydro and air to the roots I'm not sure about. I grow numerous house plants in water with no airstones. All if them are fine.

Water exchanges 02 without an Maidstone or sprayer as long as its exposed to air.

People freak out over bacteria. Thing is I have a large fish tank that I have a couple house plants growing in. I never ad chemicals. The filters haven't been changed in a year.

Why? Good bacteria. I let the good bacteria colonize and the water is stable.

I say all this because it makes me wonder. Some use good bacteria in hydro. They can run higher temps. Any type of water system you setup for fish or plants needs to sit for a week or so for the ph to stabilize. Let good bacteria grow and I think it would be fine.

Zarg · Oct 31, 2017

its really all a matter what i have available combined with what i know, ive tried using a different medium but its never really worked out great for me. ive read about store bought systems that use a soil/bubble concept. and it started out as a trial and error thing years ago and i kinda just stuck with it. i think theres been a stunt in growth because it was quite chilly in my house for a while, i eventually got the heat regulated and it seems to have made them alot more perky. theres so much out there and so many ways to do things. been thinking of starting my seeds in the peat moss pellets and transferring them into pellets or stones, just been trying to work out something i can build myself. being stuck with working on a low budget. only just recently getting proper spectrum lights.

Zarg · Oct 31, 2017

Chunky Stool said:
Why do you need soil?
Has this ever worked for you? Seems like a ph problem waiting to happen.

forgot to hit reply on the last one but yes, its worked in the past. largest issue is keeping lights from the roots but for the most part i have that handled. (you can imagine before i knew about light poisoning and root rot)

whitebb2727 · Oct 31, 2017

Xs121 said:
I think you're the one that's missing the point. This thread is not about how to grow mj correctly otherwise I would have declared specifically that 'defoliation is the way to increase yield' then you could correct me on that one.

Why do you want to ramp down my throat your own philosophy? Do I do that to anybody? Did I insist that my way is the only way? What is my 'unscientific' experiment have to do with being a smart grower?

A smart grower will do whatever he/she thinks is good for him or her, period.

A smart grower will listen to people like you, like me, or whoever who has an opinion and will decide for him/her what is best for him or her.

How would you know if a person can comprehend how difficult this particular experiment is? Do you? Do you even realize the hypothesis behind this experiment? All you know is that this experiment is about a defoliated plant and missing leaves. Do you even look at the bigger picture of this experiment?

Let me ask you something, since you're implying that you're so knowledgeable in this field. What is the relationship of roots to defoliation? What is the relationship of Cytokinin and Gibberellic acid to defoliation? Do you know? Heck, do you even really know the flowering structure of cannabis? I bet none of you understood the flowering structure of cannabis. Because if you do then maybe you can answer this...what are the 3 main structures of a plant...any plant for that matter aside from the root? I'm gonna give you a hint, it's not stem, leaves, and flowers.

For the longest time, the flowering structure of cannabis puzzles me. I've been devouring any botanical phytomorphology of cannabis flowering structure and aside from the basic form there's none existed that deal deeply into the flowering structure, none.

Thought we covered this. Its not really an expierment. It lacks proper controls and setup.

Xs121 · Oct 31, 2017

Flowki said:
It's more than just a simple one time side by side to confirm something like this. No shortedge of those one time side by siders, but here we are.

So maybe you can decipher what I see on this picture.

Because this picture alone meant more than all the botanical books I've read in regards to cannabis flowering structure.
This picture alone influence my grow style (not talking about SOG), my light schedule, my feeding, my reason for defoliation.

I'm in the mood to abuse my plant

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