I have never heard a decent argument for any god of any type.

The title speaks for itself.

Every belief in god comes down to personal revelation, or faith; neither of which are proof of anything.

An experience, e.g. personal revelation, can't be shown to be true and not a delusion or hallucination.

Faith can be used to justify literally any position and therefore cannot be shown to be a path to truth.

This leaves me with zero rational arguments for gods existence.

Beefbisquit said:

The title speaks for itself.

Every belief in god comes down to personal revelation, or faith; neither of which are proof of anything.

An experience, e.g. personal revelation, can't be shown to be true and not a delusion or hallucination.

Faith can be used to justify literally any position and therefore cannot be a path to truth.

This leaves me with zero rational arguments for gods existence.

Click to expand...

/thread

There was a post regarding pantheism in the other thread;

A few other points to consider....

If pantheism is defining "god" as the universe, what the fuck is the point? We already have a name for the universe, it's called the universe or the cosmos if you prefer to include the possibility of multi-verses.

If there is no intention or consciousness to the universe, why call it god in the first place?

If you have to change the working definitions of things to make your theory work, your theory is most likely not very good.

Seems like Pantheism is just a giant game of change the definition.

Beefbisquit said:

There was a post regarding pantheism in the other thread;

A few other points to consider....

If pantheism is defining "god" as the universe, what the fuck is the point? We already have a name for the universe, it's called the universe or the cosmos if you prefer to include the possibility of multi-verses.

If there is no intention or consciousness to the universe, why call it god in the first place?

If you have to change the working definitions of things to make your theory work, your theory is most likely not very good.

Seems like Pantheism is just a giant game of change the definition.

Click to expand...

You have to go deeper than "god is the universe"
You part of the universe and as such you are god looking in on yourself. Without your consciousness there would be no universe..

It's solipsism under the guise of religion

Once you believe that then you get can get such hateful ideas such as "the law off attraction"

I had an old mate who was really into this shit and he really believed that with positive thoughts he'd ascend this reality in 2012
I saw him the day after it was supposed to happen and explained to him that my consciousness had been willing him and everyone else to stay here trapped in this reality and now his current form will never reach the next dimension..
Strangely enough he doesn't really talk to me much these days lol

ginjawarrior said:

You have to go deeper than "god is the universe"
You part of the universe and as such you are god looking in on yourself. Without your consciousness there would be no universe..

It's solipsism under the guise of religion

Once you believe that then you get can get such hateful ideas such as "the law off attraction"

I had an old mate who was really into this shit and he really believed that with positive thoughts he'd ascend this reality in 2012
I saw him the day after it was supposed to happen and explained to him that my consciousness had been willing him and everyone else to stay here trapped in this reality and now his current form will never reach the next dimension..
Strangely enough he doesn't really talk to me much these days lol

Click to expand...

Oh man, that's hilarious....

I agree about the solipsism bit. Solipsism is not provable, and completely pointless for just that reason.

Pantheism has the same air to it.

I can't make a solid argument about the existence of God, but pretty sure the forces that be don't take it personally if you don't believe. Why should you? If you are God and want to communicate a message, why tell one poor sap that he is responsible for getting the word out when God could simply communicate to everyone instantaneously? Kindergarten logic fail.

Beefbisquit said:

@Buddha2525

Click to expand...

Yeah?

This sounds like quite an easy question for someone who has a philosophy degree.

Didn't they teach you about the tetra lemma?

Greek philosophers who viewed these were known as: substantialism(sat), subjectivism(asat), holism(sat & asat), and instrumentalism not the case for sat and sat, which rejects all three, endless equivocators(avidya, anirvacaniya, mithya).

As religious parable.

A congregation of devotees to Rama came before the Buddha and asked, "I try to believe with all my heart in Rama, yet I still have a bit of doubt, have I been wasting my life? Is there God?" To which the Buddha declared, "No." And they all rejoiced, and partied.

A congregation of Carvakas came before the Buddha, "I whole heartedly believe in no God what so ever, but I have a bit of doubt. What if there is a God, will I be left behind?" To which the Buddha declared, "Yes," and in that instant they all became believers, renouncing their previous disbelief.

A man comes before Buddha, "Buddha, in the past people prayed to God, and he answered them back. But in this degenerate age, he listens to none. Did he once exists, and is now dead?" To which the Buddha answered in silence, only smiling. In that instant the man became enlightened.

A very confused man came to the Buddha, asking "Buddha, I pray and pray, but God doesn't answer me.Yet others get answers and live a wonderful life. Does God only not exist for me, but for others? What should I do?" To which the Buddha remained silent. Several years passed, and the man thanked the Buddha, for without him he would'nt have became enlightened.

The late Joseph Campbell reported there are over 50,000 religions being followed and every one of them claims their God is omnipotent. Sure like to see all these believers work some of that confusion out before they try to convince me they are the one and only true path to some sort of Valhalla.

A.K.A. Overgrowem said:

The late Joseph Campbell reported there are over 50,000 religions being followed and every one of them claims their God is omnipotent. Sure like to see all these believers work some of that confusion out before they try to convince me they are the one and only true path to some sort of Valhalla.

Click to expand...

I think it's more of what you think at the time of death, where you go later. There's many cases of people knowing things which can only be explained if some sort of afterlife and prelife happens.

Psychologist Carl Jung wrote about how the collective unconscious happens. He told of Philemon, who was a man from his past life, who would talk to him. There were automatic writings he had no idea where they came from. This is a man who held deeply the scientific method.

Just like you practice in this world, whatever your profession may be. It takes a bit out of your time to learn a trade. Just like you can't expect to learn about what to do after this life by accepting alone, doing nothing.

If all it takes to believe in something, and that happens for an afterlife, if believing in nothing gets you nothing, which is worth it? One is a definite, the other is, maybe....

For many, it's not so much a personal revelation as it is simple common sense questioning.

Why us? Why not one of the other billions of creatures on the planet?
Why are we the only species that's ever existed that can be inherently evil?
Why are we the only species on earth that ever evolved to a point of advanced intelligence?

One could ask the same questions of anything else and come to a conclusion. For instance:

Why is the vault open?
Why is all of the money gone?
Why are the security guard and tellers all shot dead?

In pondering those simple observations one can reach the conclusion that the bank was in fact robbed. It's not a "personal revelation" that can't be proven, but a series of questions that point to a foregone conclusion.

The problem with faith, however, is how it is defined.

Many have asked those same three basic questions and come up with a myriad of different explanations (deity wise) to answer them.

What makes the most sense though is relatively common - we humans are special. We're the only example of anything approaching us in the known universe. To write that off to a galactic accident is a cop out for those who lack a definitive answer.

God is the idea that we're not an accident or some level of blind luck. Whatever name you give it, the idea has merit in the grand scheme of things. At the very least, it has just as much merit as someone saying it's all just dumb luck.

TacoMac said:

For many, it's not so much a personal revelation as it is simple common sense questioning.

Why us? Why not one of the other billions of creatures on the planet?
Why are we the only species that's ever existed that can be inherently evil?
Why are we the only species on earth that ever evolved to a point of advanced intelligence?

One could ask the same questions of anything else and come to a conclusion. For instance:

Why is the vault open?
Why is all of the money gone?
Why are the security guard and tellers all shot dead?

In pondering those simple observations one can reach the conclusion that the bank was in fact robbed. It's not a "personal revelation" that can't be proven, but a series of questions that point to a foregone conclusion.

The problem with faith, however, is how it is defined.

Many have asked those same three basic questions and come up with a myriad of different explanations (deity wise) to answer them.

What makes the most sense though is relatively common - we humans are special. We're the only example of anything approaching us in the known universe. To write that off to a galactic accident is a cop out for those who lack a definitive answer.

God is the idea that we're not an accident or some level of blind luck. Whatever name you give it, the idea has merit in the grand scheme of things. At the very least, it has just as much merit as someone saying it's all just dumb luck.

Click to expand...

Other members of the Genus Homo had speech and reasoning ability along with several nacent technologies.

TacoMac said:

For many, it's not so much a personal revelation as it is simple common sense questioning.

Why us? Why not one of the other billions of creatures on the planet?
Why are we the only species that's ever existed that can be inherently evil?
Why are we the only species on earth that ever evolved to a point of advanced intelligence?

One could ask the same questions of anything else and come to a conclusion. For instance:

Why is the vault open?
Why is all of the money gone?
Why are the security guard and tellers all shot dead?

In pondering those simple observations one can reach the conclusion that the bank was in fact robbed. It's not a "personal revelation" that can't be proven, but a series of questions that point to a foregone conclusion.

The problem with faith, however, is how it is defined.

Many have asked those same three basic questions and come up with a myriad of different explanations (deity wise) to answer them.

What makes the most sense though is relatively common - we humans are special. We're the only example of anything approaching us in the known universe. To write that off to a galactic accident is a cop out for those who lack a definitive answer.

God is the idea that we're not an accident or some level of blind luck. Whatever name you give it, the idea has merit in the grand scheme of things. At the very least, it has just as much merit as someone saying it's all just dumb luck.

Click to expand...

Other members of the Genus Homo had speech and reasoning ability along with several nacent technologies.

TacoMac said:

For many, it's not so much a personal revelation as it is simple common sense questioning.

Why us? Why not one of the other billions of creatures on the planet?
Why are we the only species that's ever existed that can be inherently evil?
Why are we the only species on earth that ever evolved to a point of advanced intelligence?

One could ask the same questions of anything else and come to a conclusion. For instance:

Why is the vault open?
Why is all of the money gone?
Why are the security guard and tellers all shot dead?

In pondering those simple observations one can reach the conclusion that the bank was in fact robbed. It's not a "personal revelation" that can't be proven, but a series of questions that point to a foregone conclusion.

The problem with faith, however, is how it is defined.

Many have asked those same three basic questions and come up with a myriad of different explanations (deity wise) to answer them.

What makes the most sense though is relatively common - we humans are special. We're the only example of anything approaching us in the known universe. To write that off to a galactic accident is a cop out for those who lack a definitive answer.

God is the idea that we're not an accident or some level of blind luck. Whatever name you give it, the idea has merit in the grand scheme of things. At the very least, it has just as much merit as someone saying it's all just dumb luck.

Click to expand...

Other members of the Genus Homo had speech and reasoning ability along with several nacent technologies.

A.K.A. Overgrowem said:

Other members of the Genus Homo had speech and reasoning ability along with several nacent technologies.

Click to expand...

Which does not equate to "ADVANCED intelligence". It's not even in the same ballpark. Hell, it's not even the same sport.

TacoMac said:

Which does not equate to "ADVANCED intelligence". It's not even in the same ballpark. Hell, it's not even the same sport.

Click to expand...

Just a few days ago another fast radio burst was detected, since they've first started seeing them in 2007. Scientists still can't determine if these signals are from an advanced civilization outside the Milky Way.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/08/06/mystery-radio-signal-space-detected-astronomers-say/912996002/

Buddha2525 said:

Just a few days ago another fast radio burst was detected, since they've first started seeing them in 2007. Scientists still can't determine if these signals are from an advanced civilization outside the Milky Way.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/08/06/mystery-radio-signal-space-detected-astronomers-say/912996002/

Click to expand...

From the article:

Science Alert reports the detection has not been independently verified, noting the case of Australian researchers who discovered a radio signal in 1998 only to find out 17 years later it was from a microwave.

TacoMac said:

From the article:

Science Alert reports the detection has not been independently verified, noting the case of Australian researchers who discovered a radio signal in 1998 only to find out 17 years later it was from a microwave.

Click to expand...

From article.

"Fast radio bursts were first discovered in 2007, but their origins are still unknown."

Maybe at the rate it takes to identify thing, I can get back to you in about 6 years?

Buddha2525 said:

From article.

"Fast radio bursts were first discovered in 2007, but their origins are still unknown."

Maybe at the rate it takes to identify thing, I can get back to you in about 6 years?

Click to expand...

You're missing the point entirely.

Until the signal is independently verified, it doesn't exist. At this point, all you have is someone saying that they saw the Loch Ness monster. Again.

TacoMac said:

You're missing the point entirely.

Until the signal is independently verified, it doesn't exist. At this point, all you have is someone saying that they saw the Loch Ness monster. Again.

Click to expand...

Sorry, I think it's you missing the point. FRBs have been verified for the past 11 years and examples of them went back for 17 years. This was just the latest. The reason they can't be verified very often, is few repeat, and are one time occurrences. So FRBs aren't a "Lock Ness monster." That one I posted was the latest, showing that even up until two days ago, FRBs continue to get detected as extra-galactic signals. This site says 32, so that now makes 33, since this page is about the before I posted.

"FRBs are millisecond bursts of radio waves that originate from unknown parts of space. The first known recorded event occurred in 2001, but it was not until 2007 that researchers noticed and verified it. Since that time, 32 more have been recorded, and all, save one, were one-time occurrences—the lone exception was found to repeat, and because of that, researchers were able to trace it back to an originating galaxy. The rest, unfortunately, remain a mystery"

https://phys.org/news/2018-03-brightest-fast-radio-australia.html