Flowering with Cree bulbs

Thanks guys. I knew it couldn't be that simple! So the best we can do is go by what the manufacturer specs say or test them ourselves to be certain. Back to the 'ol drawing board. Searching for that Chazbolin thread. Thanks again Captainmorgan and Hyroot!

JohnNeedsMeds said:

Thanks guys. I knew it couldn't be that simple! So the best we can do is go by what the manufacturer specs say or test them ourselves to be certain. Back to the 'ol drawing board. Searching for that Chazbolin thread. Thanks again Captainmorgan and Hyroot!

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Very complicated subject with many unknowns. Many lighting terms are measurements that seem geared toward how the human eye perceives light and not about plant needs. From my limited understanding of this stuff,spectrum and energy seem to be the main points to look at,nm and umoles. There are many here who can explain this much better. So far my best results are warm white with some supplemental wave lengths added. I think the use of 730 nm at lights out is under appreciated and would recommend it.

Starting tonight I'll be taking 30 minutes off the light schedule each day for 3 days in a row to get me back to 12/12 for the rest of the way.

captainmorgan said:

Very complicated subject with many unknowns. Many lighting terms are measurements that seem geared toward how the human eye perceives light and not about plant needs. From my limited understanding of this stuff,spectrum and energy seem to be the main points to look at,nm and umoles. There are many here who can explain this much better. So far my best results are warm white with some supplemental wave lengths added. I think the use of 730 nm at lights out is under appreciated and would recommend it.

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Complicated indeed. I just got through reading the whole Chazbolin thread including all the links to papers and graphs and....oh man my head hurts! I just wanna grow! I like your explanation tons better Captain, warm white with some supplemental thrown in. lol In my world simple = better. I have actually been researching growing and lighting since March. I've been trying to develop my own DIY combo panels to use. LED's coupled with CFL for the whites but now that I have seen your grows it pretty much changed my whole outlook on lighting. Thank you for that! Oh and on the subject of the 730nm at lights off...I read that if you do it just before lights on and after lights off it helps even more. The point was to mimic the far red light at sunrise and sunset so it made sense, at least to my very limited understanding of it all. What do you think?

John

JohnNeedsMeds said:

Complicated indeed. I just got through reading the whole Chazbolin thread including all the links to papers and graphs and....oh man my head hurts! I just wanna grow! I like your explanation tons better Captain, warm white with some supplemental thrown in. lol In my world simple = better. I have actually been researching growing and lighting since March. I've been trying to develop my own DIY combo panels to use. LED's coupled with CFL for the whites but now that I have seen your grows it pretty much changed my whole outlook on lighting. Thank you for that! Oh and on the subject of the 730nm at lights off...I read that if you do it just before lights on and after lights off it helps even more. The point was to mimic the far red light at sunrise and sunset so it made sense, at least to my very limited understanding of it all. What do you think?

John

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That's a no on 730 nm in the morning. Think of the phytochrome state as a switch from day to night,during the day it's in the Pfr state and at night in the Pr. Pfr is changed to Pr by 730nm light and Pr is changed to Pfr by 660nm. Indoors there is no sunset so it takes 2 hours to change to Pr without the 730nm trigger. That's why outdoors plants start to flower at 14 hours and less, but indoors it's 12 hours. As the nights get longer the plant accelerates flowering. If you use 730nm on a 12/12 cycle the plant thinks it's getting 12 hours of dark and if you don't use 730nm the plant thinks it's only getting 10 hours of dark.

captainmorgan said:

That's a no on 730 nm in the morning. Think of the phytochrome state as a switch from day to night,during the day it's in the Pfr state and at night in the Pr. Pfr is changed to Pr by 730nm light and Pr is changed to Pfr by 660nm. Indoors there is no sunset so it takes 2 hours to change to Pr without the 730nm trigger. That's why outdoors plants start to flower at 14 hours and less, but indoors it's 12 hours. As the nights get longer the plant accelerates flowering. If you use 730nm on a 12/12 cycle the plant thinks it's getting 12 hours of dark and if you don't use 730nm the plant thinks it's only getting 10 hours of dark.

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Ah that makes perfect sense. It's funny that that scenario came from an induction lamp manufacturer. Indeed, why would you want to flip the 'sleep' switch on plants at dawn. sheesh! Thank you for clearing that up for me!
On another note, have you heard of the Emerson Enhancement Effect where he found that using 680nm with 700nm provides better deep-red to the plant than using one or the other? I was just wondering if that would figure into the lights you are using. Is it possible that those wavelengths are part of the spectra in the warm-whites or supplements? Btw, your grows rock!!!

JohnNeedsMeds said:

Ah that makes perfect sense. It's funny that that scenario came from an induction lamp manufacturer. Indeed, why would you want to flip the 'sleep' switch on plants at dawn. sheesh! Thank you for clearing that up for me!
On another note, have you heard of the Emerson Enhancement Effect where he found that using 680nm with 700nm provides better deep-red to the plant than using one or the other? I was just wondering if that would figure into the lights you are using. Is it possible that those wavelengths are part of the spectra in the warm-whites or supplements? Btw, your grows rock!!!

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Here you go,I've been able to source 730 nm for DIY but not 680 nm.

http://growlightsource.com/products/indoor-outdoor-led-grow-lights/e-effect-50-red-booster-50-watt-660nm-680nm-50-50-grow-light/

http://growlightsource.com/products/indoor-outdoor-led-grow-lights/the-flower-initiator-10-watt-ip65-indoor-outdoor-grow-light/

Deep red is from 650-700. Far red is from 700-780. The uvl redsuns have a spike at 690 deep red as well as 630 red.

hyroot said:

Deep red is from 650-700. Far red is from 700-780. The uvl redsuns have a spike at 690 deep red as well as 630 red.

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Yea,I've got UVL red suns and UVL 660's running with my 5000k induction setup and it does a great job but couldn't find any 680-690nm LEDs.

Thanks guys! This has me thinking about what Emerson found. Is it possible that different wavelengths in the deep red spectrum have the same affect? Say for instance, 650nm and 670nm or any other two separated by 20nm, ie 660 - 680, 670-690. If so it is possible you already have that affect going which would add to the amazing growth you have been seeing.

I was checking out the Cree bulbs and saw that certain Phillips bulbs had a more straight-down direction of light flow. Has anyone tried any of those yet?

How long do you think the ZooMeds and Red Suns last? The UVL 660 was only good for 2 flowering intervals, though I noticed nothing, even when brand new

hyroot said:

Deep red is from 650-700. Far red is from 700-780. The uvl redsuns have a spike at 690 deep red as well as 630 red.

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Good question. I base using NW + WW instead of individual color diodes/engines to analog v digital. Digital leaves gaps or notches in the sign wave, whereas analog is smooth. One could combine them, but like captainmorgan, I am getting vg results without doing so. I would like to try blending some 2400K A19s, which do exist, but must be special ordered

JohnNeedsMeds said:

Thanks guys! This has me thinking about what Emerson found. Is it possible that different wavelengths in the deep red spectrum have the same affect? Say for instance, 650nm and 670nm or any other two separated by 20nm, ie 660 - 680, 670-690. If so it is possible you already have that affect going which would add to the amazing growth you have been seeing.

I was checking out the Cree bulbs and saw that certain Phillips bulbs had a more straight-down direction of light flow. Has anyone tried any of those yet?

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PetFlora said:

Good question. I base using NW + WW instead of individual color diodes/engines to analog v digital. Digital leaves gaps or notches in the sign wave, whereas analog is smooth. One could combine them, but like captainmorgan, I am getting vg results without doing so. I would like to try blending some 2400K A19s, which do exist, but must be special ordered

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Thanks PetFlora. At this point it is all pure speculation for me since I have no real way to test these things until I move to a legal area where testing can begin but I am taking many notes and all of you guys who are actually DOING this amazing work are such an inspiration to me and I can't thank you all enough for posting your grows and findings here for the rest of us to learn from and better understand how to grow these wonderful plants! If I knew how to give +rep I certainly would be spreading it around!

PetFlora said:

How long do you think the ZooMeds and Red Suns last? The UVL 660 was only good for 2 flowering intervals, though I noticed nothing, even when brand new

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The flora suns , I physically broke before they died. They were over a year old. I had a couple redsuns die at 10 months. I have some other redsuns that have been going for over 2 years. Same with fiji's. Out of those 2 years . I didn't use them for a total of around 6 months. Same with coral waves. Last bulbs I bought were htg 5400k and 2700k almost a year ago

JohnNeedsMeds said:

Complicated indeed. I just got through reading the whole Chazbolin thread including all the links to papers and graphs and....oh man my head hurts! I just wanna grow! I like your explanation tons better Captain, warm white with some supplemental thrown in. lol In my world simple = better. I have actually been researching growing and lighting since March. I've been trying to develop my own DIY combo panels to use. LED's coupled with CFL for the whites but now that I have seen your grows it pretty much changed my whole outlook on lighting. Thank you for that! Oh and on the subject of the 730nm at lights off...I read that if you do it just before lights on and after lights off it helps even more. The point was to mimic the far red light at sunrise and sunset so it made sense, at least to my very limited understanding of it all. What do you think?

John

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I'm glad you found the thread and took the time to read it. BTW you head WOULD hurt unless you're familiar with lighting principles and plant photochemical response this is not information that one can easily digest or would even begin to get a handle on in one or two passes. The formulas were put up just to show how we got the values shown in the 5 charts that ARE used by many plant lamp/lighting manufacturers when it comes to advertising what their product can do for your indoor garden. If nothing else, whenever the topic comes up that, for example; a plasma is better that a CMH lamp, visit the charts on pages 6-7 and see how much energy each lamp delivers in terms of relative plant watts in the veg/coratenoid/flowering regions to see if there is any basis for that claim.

You mention, if I have this correct, that you were told by an induction lighting company that they were suggesting 730nm wavelengths be introduced prior to lights on? I'm curious who was it making that claim?

If you want a bit more information on the Pfr-Fr relationship this is a good read.

http://www.chrysanthemumsvancouver.com/photoperiodic.php

Thanks Chaz. I posted on your lights thread. Sorry for any hijacking Captainmorgan.

JohnNeedsMeds said:

Thanks Chaz. I posted on your lights thread. Sorry for any hijacking Captainmorgan.

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If your talking light spectrum's, it's welcome here.

captainmorgan said:

If your talking light spectrum's, it's welcome here.

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Thanks CM! Indeed, all about spectrums. How is your grow doing? Can't wait to see what the bulbs are producing!

captainmorgan said:

Here's the deathstar with the side lighting setup.

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CM, that base that you have all the bulbs plugged into up top, did you make that and are the bulbs all wired together to use only one outlet? Thanks!

JohnNeedsMeds said:

Thanks CM! Indeed, all about spectrums. How is your grow doing? Can't wait to see what the bulbs are producing!

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Here's a couple pics I just took,day 24 with some blueberry skunks under induction and red T5's and the CK at day 52.

JohnNeedsMeds said:

CM, that base that you have all the bulbs plugged into up top, did you make that and are the bulbs all wired together to use only one outlet? Thanks!

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Yea, I made both Cree bulb hoods and the induction hoods too. Have them wired for a single plug also and the side light pedestals are wired in pairs.