ditching hps for quantum lights

jarvild said:

A 600 HPS in a 4x4 should get you a gram a watt easily. Personal best was about 1.6 gpw.
You can buy a whole 1,000 watt setup for $.30 a watt, compared to LED @ around $3 a watt.
I'm sure I'm not alone as to being burned by the outlandish claims made by some of these companies in the past. I have a couple sitting around that are 4 years or less old with drivers shot or chips in need of replacing.

I'm not against LED's , they will be the lights of the future.

Click to expand...

I very much agree. Exactly my point.

Tim1987 said:

I think its about controlling the environment though.
Of course your buds are gonna get airy, if its too hot.
Put a bulb in a tube, with a good reflector, and a big extraction fan, and itll be the same temps up the top, as your room.
I know mine is. I only use a 6 inch fan too. Let alone an 8 or 12.
In a big room you can hook them up like that, to each other consecutively.
If your extraction is good enough, you can replace your air, and vent all the heat from the lights at the same time. Its a win, win.
If it was a room full of quantums though, they're naked. Excess light, or energy becomes heat. You're still gonna have to be extracting the heat from the lights. Plus cooling, and extracting.
Its not efficient.

Click to expand...

That's not true ... Here is a bedroom grow ... Perfectly normal ROOM temps .
7 panels total PLUS 2 cobs
A simple negative pressure setup is all that's needed .
No buying unnecessary shit involved. 6" and 8" inline that's it.

Budzbuddha said:

That's not true ... Here is a bedroom grow ... Perfectly normal ROOM temps .
7 panels total PLUS 2 cobs
A simple negative pressure setup is all that's needed .
No buying unnecessary shit involved. 6" and 8" inline that's it.

View attachment 4110216

Click to expand...

Maybe. Though you're still missing the point. I have a 4x4. I dont need any more extracton than you do.
What would you be doing to efficiently contol your heat in a 100kw room???
There is loads of heat, regardless. You still have to extract it.
Hps are so versatile too. Middle of winter, a naked bulb would effectively heat your space during the day.
LED's, just are what they, are. You cant tweak them to suit every enviroment.

jarvild said:

A 600 HPS in a 4x4 should get you a gram a watt easily. Personal best was about 1.6 gpw.
You can buy a whole 1,000 watt setup for $.30 a watt, compared to LED @ around $3 a watt.
I'm sure I'm not alone as to being burned by the outlandish claims made by some of these companies in the past. I have a couple sitting around that are 4 years or less old with drivers shot or chips in need of replacing.

I'm not against LED's , they will be the lights of the future.

Click to expand...

Its a bit of a stretch to say LED is $3/watt, more like $2. Regardless, you need to take into account that you are getting around 25% more light output per watt with LED. It also matters how many lights you run in your space. The more lights you run, the more savings you accrue with LED (energy savings, bulb replacement, etc.). Another thing is heat. In cold climates, LED's lower heat emission isn't a good thing. In hotter climates, its invaluable.

So if you live somewhere cold and are only interested in a small op, LED might not make sense for you. The bigger the op gets, the more attractive LED becomes. I guess it really boils down to your personal situation.

CCCmints said:

Its a bit of a stretch to say LED is $3/watt, more like $2. Regardless, you need to take into account that you are getting around 25% more light output per watt with LED. It also matters how many lights you run in your space. The more lights you run, the more savings you accrue with LED (energy savings, bulb replacement, etc.). Another thing is heat. In cold climates, LED's lower heat emission isn't a good thing. In hotter climates, its invaluable.

So if you live somewhere cold and are only interested in a small op, LED might not make sense for you. The bigger the op gets, the more attractive LED becomes. I guess it really boils down to your personal situation.

Click to expand...

I agree.
But if the LED is an average of 25% more efficient. Shouldnt it only be 25% more expensive, to straight up purchase?
Let alone having to put the effort into DIY.
It doesn't save anything, in the long run. Not if you buy good quality hid in the first place.
Even cheap hid, are really quite reliable.
They all have an expected standard.
But the LED quality variation, is totally bipolar. There's a massive amount of brands too. They all make the same claims as well.
Finding a gem, is a very hard thing to do.

CCCmints said:

Its a bit of a stretch to say LED is $3/watt, more like $2. Regardless, you need to take into account that you are getting around 25% more light output per watt with LED. It also matters how many lights you run in your space. The more lights you run, the more savings you accrue with LED (energy savings, bulb replacement, etc.). Another thing is heat. In cold climates, LED's lower heat emission isn't a good thing. In hotter climates, its invaluable.

So if you live somewhere cold and are only interested in a small op, LED might not make sense for you. The bigger the op gets, the more attractive LED becomes. I guess it really boils down to your personal situation.

Click to expand...

So we go from a 300% to a 200% increase in initial upfront cost per watt.
Let me ask you this. Let's say I have a 4x4 area and run 600 watts of HID's in that space and get almost 2 lbs from it. If led's as you say puts out 25% more light than a hid equivalent then I would need 450 watts of leds to match. Can that 450 Watts of LEDs pull that from that same area. From my experience, NO.
As I said, I'm not against LED for grow lighting. Just the claims that the people make about their LEDs.

It is far closer to a dollar a Watt.
The 100W strips are $50, so 50c/W for the LEDs, then you need to decide how you want to swing your drivers.
You could cheap out and use more commonly sold ones like the HLG240 or even cheaper if you are in 220V country like me, use an ELG driver.
It does not need to cost brasilions. It would take me a year of constant growing to make up the extra cost of using 4 strips instead of 3 on the 320W driver, in electricity cost. (all for only gaining 2000 lumens).

ANC said:

It is far closer to a dollar a Watt.
The 100W strips are $50, so 50c/W for the LEDs, then you need to decide how you want to swing your drivers.
You could cheap out and use more commonly sold ones like the HLG240 or even cheaper if you are in 220V country like me, use an ELG driver.
It does not need to cost brasilions. It would take me a year of constant growing to make up the extra cost of using 4 strips instead of 3 on the 320W driver, in electricity cost. (all for only gaining 2000 lumens).

Click to expand...

What, your not getting 100 watts from those strips unless your running 2+ amps from your drivers. Recommended is 1.12 a for the best eff. so that would put you about 54 watts out from the light.
Sound like more LED salesman crap.
Our units contain 100 watt cree cobs but we only run them at 50 watts for best eff, but hey , they are 100 watt cobs.

A 320W driver can put out 6.7A = 3 x 2.23333A @ 48V, That is 102W last time I checked.
Test current is 2.24A

@jarvild

Tim1987 said:

I agree.
But if the LED is an average of 25% more efficient. Shouldnt it only be 25% more expensive, to straight up purchase?
Let alone having to put the effort into DIY.
It doesn't save anything, in the long run. Not if you buy good quality hid in the first place.
Even cheap hid, are really quite reliable.
They all have an expected standard.
But the LED quality variation, is totally bipolar. There's a massive amount of brands too. They all make the same claims as well.
Finding a gem, is a very hard thing to do.

Click to expand...

With a proper LED fixture, you have way better uniformity than HPS provides, which increases yield and gives you a more manageable canopy. With proper uniformity, you can place your LED closer (due to the absence of large PAR spikes), providing tighter internode spacing. You don't need to switch to a different light when transferring out of the veg phase into flower. But like I said, it boils down to your personal situation. For an example, lets consider converting a 5k HPS room to LED, and estimate the savings over the course of 1 year.

5k - 25% = 3750 (equivalent LED wattage)
12/12 cycle for 1 year = 4380 hours
0.12 = average kWh rate in the US
($60*5)*(2) = $600 (replace HPS bulbs twice per year) *I'm still burning a 1K HPS bulb to measure light degradation. Its very likely you'd want to change your bulbs 3x per year to get the most out of your lighting system.

Cost to run HPS for 1 year: $3,229.80
Cost to run LED for 1 year: $1,972.00
Monthly savings = $104.81

As ANC mentioned, DIY is typically >$1/watt. A high quality HPS setup is around $0.4/watt. If you live in a hotter climate, you'd want to factor in savings from lesser cooling requirements.

(LED) Initial investment: $3,750
(HPS) Initial investment: $2,000
Difference = $1,750

Investing in LED is moreso about improving the quality of your lighting system rather than just simply saving money. But regardless, if you plan to grow for more than a year, LED is the best option cost wise.

jarvild said:

So we go from a 300% to a 200% increase in initial upfront cost per watt.
Let me ask you this. Let's say I have a 4x4 area and run 600 watts of HID's in that space and get almost 2 lbs from it. If led's as you say puts out 25% more light than a hid equivalent then I would need 450 watts of leds to match. Can that 450 Watts of LEDs pull that from that same area. From my experience, NO.
As I said, I'm not against LED for grow lighting. Just the claims that the people make about their LEDs.

Click to expand...

Well if you're growing with LED fixtures which have the same uniformity issues as HPS and HLG-550, then you're missing out on the capabilities of LED. Unfortunately, there isn't really a suitable retail option at this time, so DIY is where its at.

CCCmints said:

so DIY is where its at

Click to expand...

DIY is always where it's at.

CCCmints said:

With a proper LED fixture, you have way better uniformity than HPS provides, which increases yield and gives you a more manageable canopy. With proper uniformity, you can place your LED closer (due to the absence of large PAR spikes), providing tighter internode spacing. You don't need to switch to a different light when transferring out of the veg phase into flower. But like I said, it boils down to your personal situation. For an example, lets consider converting a 5k HPS room to LED, and estimate the savings over the course of 1 year.

5k - 25% = 3750 (equivalent LED wattage)
12/12 cycle for 1 year = 4380 hours
0.12 = average kWh rate in the US
($60*5)*(2) = $600 (replace HPS bulbs twice per year) *I'm still burning a 1K HPS bulb to measure light degradation. Its very likely you'd want to change your bulbs 3x per year to get the most out of your lighting system.

Cost to run HPS for 1 year: $3,229.80
Cost to run LED for 1 year: $1,972.00
Monthly savings = $104.81

As ANC mentioned, DIY is typically >$1/watt. A high quality HPS setup is around $0.4/watt. If you live in a hotter climate, you'd want to factor in savings from lesser cooling requirements.

(LED) Initial investment: $3,750
(HPS) Initial investment: $2,000
Difference = $1,750

Investing in LED is moreso about improving the quality of your lighting system rather than just simply saving money. But regardless, if you plan to grow for more than a year, LED is the best option cost wise.

Well if you're growing with LED fixtures which have the same uniformity issues as HPS and HLG-550, then you're missing out on the capabilities of LED. Unfortunately, there isn't really a suitable retail option at this time, so DIY is where its at.

Click to expand...

Uniformity??? You mean SCROG
HID uniformity doesnt matter at all, because of penetration.
You could-
Stake it, LST, scrog, use tomato cages, sea of green, verticle grow, perpetually flower in one room, and still get good yield.
LED just cant meet the same overall standard, and versatility HID gives its users.
Im sorry.
I'll be one of the first buyers, the day they can.
But for now, unfortunately HID is king.

I do have to disagree about quality of light too.
Try growing some pumpkins with an LED.
Versatility, again. You can grow any plant with hps. I veg with hps. Its no biggy at all.

On a side note.
It cost me $200 for a bulb, ballast and Xxtra cooltube.
I still havnt been fucked to replace after a couple years. They reliably work.
Its cheap shit too.
What would $200 of LED get you??? No DIY either.
See my point?

Tim1987 said:

Uniformity??? You mean SCROG
HID uniformity doesnt matter at all, because of penetration.
You could-
Stake it, LST, scrog, use tomato cages, sea of green, verticle grow, perpetually flower in one room, and still get good yield.
LED just cant meet the same overall standard, and versatility HID gives its users.
Im sorry.
I'll be one of the first buyers, the day they can.
But for now, unfortunately HID is king.

I do have to disagree about quality of light too.
Try growing some pumpkins with an LED.
Versatility, again. You can grow any plant with hps. I veg with hps. Its no biggy at all.

On a side note.
It cost me $200 for a bulb, ballast and Xxtra cooltube.
I still havnt been fucked to replace after a couple years. They reliably work.
Its cheap shit too.
What would $200 of LED get you??? No DIY either.
See my point?

Click to expand...

No, I don't mean SCROG. I mean light uniformity. I don't even know how to respond to, "HID uniformity doesn't matter at all, because of penetration" because its honestly a ludicrous statement. HID doesn't give you the ability to train your plants, it just makes it harder to manage your canopy due to the lack of uniformity. Not to mention you've got massive PAR spikes which disallow you from placing the light closer to your canopy. HID has been king for a long time, but that's coming to an end very soon. I've already designed and built a fixture which crushes HPS. Fixtures like mine will come to market in the near future at a reasonable price.

Not replacing your HPS bulb for 2 years is insane. Even manufacture recommendations suggest you need to change more often than that...If you are only willing to spend $200 on your lighting system, don't expect top-notch quality. You aren't growing top-shelf cannabis with a 2 year old HPS bulb in a cooltube.

I don't see your point.

CCCmints said:

With a proper LED fixture, you have way better uniformity than HPS provides, which increases yield and gives you a more manageable canopy. With proper uniformity, you can place your LED closer (due to the absence of large PAR spikes), providing tighter internode spacing. You don't need to switch to a different light when transferring out of the veg phase into flower. But like I said, it boils down to your personal situation. For an example, lets consider converting a 5k HPS room to LED, and estimate the savings over the course of 1 year.

5k - 25% = 3750 (equivalent LED wattage)
12/12 cycle for 1 year = 4380 hours
0.12 = average kWh rate in the US
($60*5)*(2) = $600 (replace HPS bulbs twice per year) *I'm still burning a 1K HPS bulb to measure light degradation. Its very likely you'd want to change your bulbs 3x per year to get the most out of your lighting system.

Cost to run HPS for 1 year: $3,229.80
Cost to run LED for 1 year: $1,972.00
Monthly savings = $104.81

As ANC mentioned, DIY is typically >$1/watt. A high quality HPS setup is around $0.4/watt. If you live in a hotter climate, you'd want to factor in savings from lesser cooling requirements.

(LED) Initial investment: $3,750
(HPS) Initial investment: $2,000
Difference = $1,750

Investing in LED is moreso about improving the quality of your lighting system rather than just simply saving money. But regardless, if you plan to grow for more than a year, LED is the best option cost wise.

Well if you're growing with LED fixtures which have the same uniformity issues as HPS and HLG-550, then you're missing out on the capabilities of LED. Unfortunately, there isn't really a suitable retail option at this time, so DIY is where its at.

Click to expand...

I Agree, but all you have to look at is the revolving cycle of new products or form factors that come and go. Cob's where the greatest then quantum Boards now Strips.

jarvild said:

I Agree, but all you have to look at is the revolving cycle of new products or form factors that come and go. Cob's where the greatest then quantum Boards now Strips.

Click to expand...

Yeah, the technology is going to keep evolving. What you have to consider when foreseeing the evolution of these technologies is the amount of resources being allocated to the development of them.

The global chip-on-board (COB) LED market will rise at a compound annual growth rate (CAGR) of 35.51% during 2016-2020

Click to expand...

The report 'Global Chip on Board LED Market 2016-2020' segments the market into the applications of general lighting, automotive lighting, and backlighting.

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The general lighting segment was the highest revenue-generating segment during 2015 and its revenue-generating capacity is expected to rise further due to increased utilization of the LEDs for room, ceiling and outdoor lighting applications.

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Demand for CoB LEDs, coupled with the presence of many prominent CoB LED makers in APAC, will lead to substantial growth of this market in APAC during the forecast period.

Click to expand...

*http://www.semiconductor-today.com/news_items/2016/mar/technavio_030316.shtml

Big time players are dumping money into COB. This will result in rapid improvements over the next few years. I don't think we'll be seeing any quantum boards or Samsung strips lighting our homes in the future.

More resources = quicker development

So when trying to foresee what will replace HPS, consider the resources allocated to the development of the technologies working towards taking the throne.

CCCmints said:

No, I don't mean SCROG. I mean light uniformity. I don't even know how to respond to, "HID uniformity doesn't matter at all, because of penetration" because its honestly a ludicrous statement. HID doesn't give you the ability to train your plants, it just makes it harder to manage your canopy due to the lack of uniformity. Not to mention you've got massive PAR spikes which disallow you from placing the light closer to your canopy. HID has been king for a long time, but that's coming to an end very soon. I've already designed and built a fixture which crushes HPS. Fixtures like mine will come to market in the near future at a reasonable price.

Not replacing your HPS bulb for 2 years is insane. Even manufacture recommendations suggest you need to change more often than that...If you are only willing to spend $200 on your lighting system, don't expect top-notch quality. You aren't growing top-shelf cannabis with a 2 year old HPS bulb in a cooltube.

I don't see your point.

Click to expand...

You misunderstood. As if i dont change my bulbs.
Reflectors are a huge factor with HID. Bigger the reflector, smaller the space. Smaller reflectors are for large grows, with lots of lights. So you can concentrate the light in an area. You get better PAR, and more even spread. Just takes a bit of math, to work it out to your room.
In a tent, bigger the reflector, the better. Where's the light gonna go? Its the spread you want.
In a big room, spread is a waste. For the reasons you stated.

Used to be that a tool's quality, was judged, on its longevity, versatility, how easy it is to use, and effectiveness at the task at hand.
A grow light is a tool just like any other. Where does the average LED stand?
Average LED's are shithouse. To say they're not is a flat out lie.

I still suggest growing some big pumpkins too, or any fruit or vegetable for that matter.
You MIGHT get away with tomatoes and cucumbers. Any fruits bigger than that, its all down hill.
You'd be able to grow great salad greens though

CCCmints said:

Yeah, the technology is going to keep evolving. What you have to consider when foreseeing the evolution of these technologies is the amount of resources being allocated to the development of them.




*http://www.semiconductor-today.com/news_items/2016/mar/technavio_030316.shtml

Big time players are dumping money into COB. This will result in rapid improvements over the next few years. I don't think we'll be seeing any quantum boards or Samsung strips lighting our homes in the future.

More resources = quicker development

So when trying to foresee what will replace HPS, consider the resources allocated to the development of the technologies working towards taking the throne.

Click to expand...

I'm still waiting to here on the new graphate based chip that they were raving about a couple of years ago.

Tim1987 said:

You misunderstood. As if i dont change my bulbs.
Reflectors are a huge factor with HID. Bigger the reflector, smaller the space. Smaller reflectors are for large grows, with lots of lights. So you can concentrate the light in an area. You get better PAR, and more even spread. Just takes a bit of math, to work it out to your room.
In a tent, bigger the reflector, the better. Where's the light gonna go? Its the spread you want.
In a big room, spread is a waste. For the reasons you stated.

Used to be that a tool's quality, was judged, on its longevity, versatility, how easy it is to use, and effectiveness at the task at hand.
A grow light is a tool just like any other. Where does the average LED stand?
Average LED's are shithouse. To say they're not is a flat out lie.

I still suggest groing some big pumpkins too, or any fruit or vegetable for that matter.
You MIGHT get away with tomatoes and cucumbers. Any fruits bigger than that, its all down hill.
You'd be able to grow great salad greens though

Click to expand...

No, you literally said you can't be fucked to change your bulbs after a couple years. I think you're missing my point. Properly done DIY LED already trumps HPS. I agree that the current market has very little to offer aside from outlandish claims. I don't know why you keep suggesting to grow pumpkins...We're not on a pumpkin growing forum...

Where does LED stand?



757w LED = 970.41µmoles/m2/s
1000w HPS = 892.79µmoles/m2/s

25% less power draw, 8% higher PPFD.

757w LED highest PAR spike = 1,188µmoles/m2/s
1000w HPS highest PAR spike = 1,427µmoles/m2/s

Difference between PPFD and highest PAR spike:
757w LED = 217.59µmoles/m2/s
1000w HPS = 534.21µmoles/m2/s

CCCmints said:

No, you literally said you can't be fucked to change your bulbs after a couple years. I think you're missing my point. Properly done DIY LED already trumps HPS. I agree that the current market has very little to offer aside from outlandish claims. I don't know why you keep suggesting to grow pumpkins...We're not on a pumpkin growing forum...

Where does LED stand?

*Left = 757w COB LED
*Right = 1000w HPS​

757w LED = 970.41µmoles/m2/s
1000w HPS = 892.79µmoles/m2/s

25% less power draw, 8% higher PPFD.

757w LED highest PAR spike = 1,188µmoles/m2/s
1000w HPS highest PAR spike = 1,427µmoles/m2/s

Difference between PPFD and highest PAR spike:
757w LED = 217.59µmoles/m2/s
1000w HPS = 534.21µmoles/m2/s

Click to expand...

THATS DIY DUDE!!!!! THAT'S EXACTLY MY POINT.
Read my posts.
Those charts still don't compare penetration. (how far the PAR travels).
How about 2 feet below the main canopy? Whats the, growth, and PAR there?
LED users have to lollypop, and train like crazy. Or their yield is shit.
I can guarantee the LED loses PAR very quickly, at a distance.
What kind of torch shines further? A big one, or a small one?
All the light comes from a single bulb, with hps.
What about led's? Thats not even considering, they have to sacrifice, some focus, for spread.
Hps, you just buy the right hood.

Tim1987 said:

THATS DIY DUDE!!!!! THAT'S EXACTLY MY POINT.
Read my posts.
Those charts still don't compare penetration. (how far the PAR travels).
How about 2 feet below the main canopy? Whats the, growth, and PAR there?
LED users have to lollypop, and train like crazy. Or their yield is shit.
I can guarantee the LED loses PAR very quickly, at a distance.
What kind of torch shines further? A big one, or a small one?
All the light comes from a single bulb, with hps.
What about led's? Thats not even considering, they have to sacrifice, some focus, for spread.
Hps, you just buy the right hood.

Click to expand...

Sorry dude really can't help you at this point lol. You've got some learnin' to do.