Defoliation, a scientific approach...

AlphaPhase

Well-Known Member
I don't have much room, but I think I can do 2 defoliated plants and 2 non defoliated plants under a 600w in the same exact environment using a ebb bucket system, this way they are gettingthe exact same ffeed, light ect, all run from one res on a timer. What are the parameters of the test? I don'twant to take all the lleaves off, can I just actively prune two of the 4 as I feel I should ?
Do you have some grow space to spare and would be willing to document a side by side experiment on some clones?
 

AlphaPhase

Well-Known Member
I have the clones already. They need a couple weeks of Veg before flower as they are only 8" tall at the moment.
 

240sxing

Well-Known Member
I don't have much room, but I think I can do 2 defoliated plants and 2 non defoliated plants under a 600w in the same exact environment using a ebb bucket system, this way they are gettingthe exact same ffeed, light ect, all run from one res on a timer. What are the parameters of the test? I don'twant to take all the lleaves off, can I just actively prune two of the 4 as I feel I should ?
Thats the thing I would want to come to beleave is that there is a line which of what you dont want to cross and over defoliation but I would says atleast 50% defol would be enough to say yeah or nay in a perfect side by side comparison , but your bulbs should both be of same brand and both new and everthing else should be as equal as possible.
 

AlphaPhase

Well-Known Member
Cool. 50% may be manageable, they are gg4 and the defoliation training I did on gg4 mother plants in veg was promising, so it should be a good candidate. The 4 plants would be under the same light. The bulb is brand new with 0 hours on it as well. I have the receipt and time that I bought the bulb if that helps. It's not a hortilux, it's an Apollo, but for one grow it should be fine. I'll see if I can set things up,
 

manti

Member
Thats the thing I would want to come to beleave is that there is a line which of what you dont want to cross and over defoliation but I would says atleast 50% defol would be enough to say yeah or nay in a perfect side by side comparison , but your bulbs should both be of same brand and both new and everthing else should be as equal as possible.
I totally agree, 50% should be a good starting point to see clear results. Moreover I think it would be important that the removed foliage on both plants match in amount, age and location on the plant. The studies I've read on other plants indicate that there might be a difference between younger and more mature leaves.
 

chuck estevez

Well-Known Member
Control Your Cannabis Growth with Defoliation (Removing Leaves) - Advanced Growers Only!
Read full marijuana defoliation tutorial here

WARNING: Only defoliate marijuana plants that are vibrant and healthy. Never defoliate an unhealthy or sickly plant!

It is not a good idea for beginning growers to use defoliation, because it can be difficult for new growers to understand what amount of defoliation is too much.

Only Use Defoliation if You Have at Least One Grow Under Your Belt

Defoliation has two purposes, one for the vegetative stage, and one for the flowering stage.

Vegetative Stage: When you remove leaves from your cannabis plant, you are taking away energy it put into vegetative growth.

This will cause your cannabis to slow down growing, especially if you remove a lot of leaves.

In the vegetative stage it is used to control the growth and structure of your plant. Bascially leaves removed from any "branch" during the vegetative stage causes that branch to grow more slowly.

When combined with other marijuana growth control techniques in the vegetative stage, you can grow plants that don't have the signature 'Christmas Tree' shape that's so annoying to cover properly with indoor grow lights. Instead you get more of a flat "bed" of growth that's evenly covered by your grow lights.

Removing leaves can be a bad thing if you want your plant to be growing upward as fast as possible because it will definitely slow down the growth of the plant for a little while.

However, most small-scale growers would rather have a well-managed short plant than a tall, unruly plant even if it ends up needing a bit of extra time during the vegetative stage to recover from the defoliation.

Pulling leaves also seems to cause the plant to grow much wide and bushy in general.

Flowering Stage: Many growers (myself included) feel that buds seem to grow much fatter if they are directly exposed to light. We believe that defoliation during the flowering stage actually dramatically increases your yield.

For example, if I have a bud that is covered by leaves, it doesn't seem to grow, even if it has leaves that are getting light.

And marijuana plants aren't the only plants that are affected by the phenomenon of increased yields from defoliation. It's well-document that other plants, including cowpeas, experience significant yield increases when their leaves are defoliated during the flowering stage (up to 50% of the leaves!)... (source)

Nebula Haze's Theories About Defoliation:

In my mind (totally a guess here that is not based on science) it seems like buds that are covered by leaves would not be able to get pollinated. Cannabis plants are generally pollinated by the wind in the wild. It's possible that some buds are pollinated by bees or other pollinating creatures.

In the wild, buds which are hidden would have almost no chance of being pollinated.

As a marijuana plant (or any kind of plant), it makes sense that all effort would want to be focused on growing buds which can be pollinated, which means focusing on buds exposed to light and air.

By exposing all the buds to light and air through defoliation, you're signalling that all buds are positioned for possible pollination, so the plant focuses on growing these buds.

I also theorize that in the wild, the cannabis plant is equipped to lose many of its leaves, whether they're eaten by bug or animals or somehow are lost some other way.

<-- End of Nebula's Theories -->

In my experience, when buds from a healthy plants are exposed to direct light and open air, it will start bulking up right away, within just a few days.

This phenomenon seems to partially explain the 'popcorn' buds that tend to pop up at the bottom of the cannabis plantwhere there is no light getting to the buds, even though the leaves around them may be getting plenty of light.

Therefore, during the flowering stage I like to strategically remove leaves that I feel are covering up any buds, or are covering up a lot of other leaves.

I also always use defoliation in either stage when I notice my plant is 'stretching' or growing taller than I'd like, or if a particular "branch" is growing too fast.

Whenever the plant seems to be growing too tall, I will go through and remove several of the fan leaves to both try to get more total light to the bud sites, and to get the plant to stop growing upwards so fast.

Right after changing the lights to 12-12, the cannabis seems to have a stretch period, and defoliating will reduce the height gained.

After a defoliation session, I notice that the cannabis plant will stop any upward growth for several days to even a few weeks, depending on how many leaves I took. Buds continue to fatten at an accelerated rate, even though the plant isn't growing taller.

Defoliated plants are easier to manage, stay healthier (fewer pests and less mold) and the buds keep getting bigger.

There is definitely some controversy about this cannabis control technique.

Some growers do not want to lose a week of growth, or may want to grow tall plants.

However, I strongly recommend experimenting with defoliation yourself to see the results if you are trying to grow short, bushy, controlled cannabis plants.

I recommend starting small on healthy, fast-growing plants, by picking just a few leaves that are covering bud sites, and see what you think!

Read full marijuana defoliation tutorial here: http://growweedeasy.com/marijuana-defoliation-tutorial
 

manti

Member
Cool. 50% may be manageable, they are gg4 and the defoliation training I did on gg4 mother plants in veg was promising, so it should be a good candidate. The 4 plants would be under the same light. The bulb is brand new with 0 hours on it as well. I have the receipt and time that I bought the bulb if that helps. It's not a hortilux, it's an Apollo, but for one grow it should be fine. I'll see if I can set things up,
Very cool that you are in. :-)
Is gg4 an acronym for the "Gorilla Glue #4" strain?

I don't know exactly which defoliation schedule would be a good starting point. The question is, if the pruning should already start during veg or only later in flower. Additionally we should think about how many defoliation sessions should be done on every plant and which leaves should be removed as a rule of thumb.

You said you used the technique on the mother plant during veg. Did you remove the leaves continuously or all at once at a given date? Which results exactly did you get from that? Do you use any other training techniques, or are the plants just growing as they like to?
 

manti

Member
Control Your Cannabis Growth with Defoliation (Removing Leaves) - Advanced Growers Only!
Read full marijuana defoliation tutorial here

WARNING: Only defoliate marijuana plants that are vibrant and healthy. Never defoliate an unhealthy or sickly plant!

It is not a good idea for beginning growers to use defoliation, because it can be difficult for new growers to understand what amount of defoliation is too much.

Only Use Defoliation if You Have at Least One Grow Under Your Belt

Defoliation has two purposes, one for the vegetative stage, and one for the flowering stage.

Vegetative Stage: When you remove leaves from your cannabis plant, you are taking away energy it put into vegetative growth.

This will cause your cannabis to slow down growing, especially if you remove a lot of leaves.

In the vegetative stage it is used to control the growth and structure of your plant. Bascially leaves removed from any "branch" during the vegetative stage causes that branch to grow more slowly.

When combined with other marijuana growth control techniques in the vegetative stage, you can grow plants that don't have the signature 'Christmas Tree' shape that's so annoying to cover properly with indoor grow lights. Instead you get more of a flat "bed" of growth that's evenly covered by your grow lights.

Removing leaves can be a bad thing if you want your plant to be growing upward as fast as possible because it will definitely slow down the growth of the plant for a little while.

However, most small-scale growers would rather have a well-managed short plant than a tall, unruly plant even if it ends up needing a bit of extra time during the vegetative stage to recover from the defoliation.

Pulling leaves also seems to cause the plant to grow much wide and bushy in general.

Flowering Stage: Many growers (myself included) feel that buds seem to grow much fatter if they are directly exposed to light. We believe that defoliation during the flowering stage actually dramatically increases your yield.

For example, if I have a bud that is covered by leaves, it doesn't seem to grow, even if it has leaves that are getting light.

And marijuana plants aren't the only plants that are affected by the phenomenon of increased yields from defoliation. It's well-document that other plants, including cowpeas, experience significant yield increases when their leaves are defoliated during the flowering stage (up to 50% of the leaves!)... (source)

Nebula Haze's Theories About Defoliation:

In my mind (totally a guess here that is not based on science) it seems like buds that are covered by leaves would not be able to get pollinated. Cannabis plants are generally pollinated by the wind in the wild. It's possible that some buds are pollinated by bees or other pollinating creatures.

In the wild, buds which are hidden would have almost no chance of being pollinated.

As a marijuana plant (or any kind of plant), it makes sense that all effort would want to be focused on growing buds which can be pollinated, which means focusing on buds exposed to light and air.

By exposing all the buds to light and air through defoliation, you're signalling that all buds are positioned for possible pollination, so the plant focuses on growing these buds.

I also theorize that in the wild, the cannabis plant is equipped to lose many of its leaves, whether they're eaten by bug or animals or somehow are lost some other way.

<-- End of Nebula's Theories -->

In my experience, when buds from a healthy plants are exposed to direct light and open air, it will start bulking up right away, within just a few days.

This phenomenon seems to partially explain the 'popcorn' buds that tend to pop up at the bottom of the cannabis plantwhere there is no light getting to the buds, even though the leaves around them may be getting plenty of light.

Therefore, during the flowering stage I like to strategically remove leaves that I feel are covering up any buds, or are covering up a lot of other leaves.

I also always use defoliation in either stage when I notice my plant is 'stretching' or growing taller than I'd like, or if a particular "branch" is growing too fast.

Whenever the plant seems to be growing too tall, I will go through and remove several of the fan leaves to both try to get more total light to the bud sites, and to get the plant to stop growing upwards so fast.

Right after changing the lights to 12-12, the cannabis seems to have a stretch period, and defoliating will reduce the height gained.

After a defoliation session, I notice that the cannabis plant will stop any upward growth for several days to even a few weeks, depending on how many leaves I took. Buds continue to fatten at an accelerated rate, even though the plant isn't growing taller.

Defoliated plants are easier to manage, stay healthier (fewer pests and less mold) and the buds keep getting bigger.

There is definitely some controversy about this cannabis control technique.

Some growers do not want to lose a week of growth, or may want to grow tall plants.

However, I strongly recommend experimenting with defoliation yourself to see the results if you are trying to grow short, bushy, controlled cannabis plants.

I recommend starting small on healthy, fast-growing plants, by picking just a few leaves that are covering bud sites, and see what you think!

Read full marijuana defoliation tutorial here: http://growweedeasy.com/marijuana-defoliation-tutorial
I think this was the tutorial where I got the theories about the influence of irradiation amount and airflow on bud growth from. The points which are outlined in the text are totally making sense, the only thing I am missing there is a real side by side comparison to proof the them. Actually I think there would be more than one single experiment necessary to elaborate the influences of the mentioned individual factors.
 

chuck estevez

Well-Known Member
I think this was the tutorial where I got the theories about the influence of irradiation amount and airflow on bud growth from. The points which are outlined in the text are totally making sense, the only thing I am missing there is a real side by side comparison to proof the them. Actually I think there would be more than one single experiment necessary to elaborate the influences of the mentioned individual factors.
I put that up so whoever wanted to do an experiment, would have a guideline to work with, there is a full tutorial link on the bottom of the post.
 

manti

Member
I put that up so whoever wanted to do an experiment, would have a guideline to work with, there is a full tutorial link on the bottom of the post.
I just realized, that I referred to exactly this tutorial in my starting post... :-P
Maybe it would be a good idea to use that tutorial as a starting point for our experiments here. The author practices continous defoliation, never letting leaves get older than two weeks. I am still not sure if it would be best to go that way or to do scheduled defoliation sessions in this experiment.
 

Aeroknow

Well-Known Member
Cool. 50% may be manageable, they are gg4 and the defoliation training I did on gg4 mother plants in veg was promising, so it should be a good candidate. The 4 plants would be under the same light. The bulb is brand new with 0 hours on it as well. I have the receipt and time that I bought the bulb if that helps. It's not a hortilux, it's an Apollo, but for one grow it should be fine. I'll see if I can set things up,
Just so everyone knows, AP and I have become pals in real world. He knows how I feel about defoliating. I'm not into it;-)
But AP, i love the experiments. It really is the only way to find out. I love to see them fo sho.
Problem is, is with that glue. The gg4 is NOT a candidate for defoliating, if there ever is/was a strain that is NOT a candidate for defoliating. IMO of course.
Plenty of light gets through foliage with that cut;-)
Now, maybe if you run that experiment with the GDP next time? :hump:
Please? Lol
 

AlphaPhase

Well-Known Member
Yeah gg4 =gorilla glue #4. Very lanky og structure. I've had most successful defoliation experiments with og plants but I've not tried on too many other plant structures. Aero is right though, I don't think the glue would be a good candidate, in flower at least, to defoliate, it doesn't really have that many leaves. I did have very nice results with heavy pruning the mother plants in veg though. I did sessions removing leaves about once a week or so. Here is 2 weeks of growth from the day I started pruning, what I liked is it made the glue structure REALLY compact and if flowered they would have been super heavy yielder compared to regular training. They also recover very quickly. I also removed tops here and there during the training. I don't remove any leaves that don't have an established top growing from the node of the leaf petiole . Growing in hydro could also speed up the recovery. Hydro also tends to grow many more leaves than soil growing, so that's another aspect.

downloadfile.jpeg downloadfile-1.jpeg

Very cool that you are in. :-)
Is gg4 an acronym for the "Gorilla Glue #4" strain?

I don't know exactly which defoliation schedule would be a good starting point. The question is, if the pruning should already start during veg or only later in flower. Additionally we should think about how many defoliation sessions should be done on every plant and which leaves should be removed as a rule of thumb.

You said you used the technique on the mother plant during veg. Did you remove the leaves continuously or all at once at a given date? Which results exactly did you get from that? Do you use any other training techniques, or are the plants just growing as they like to?
 

AlphaPhase

Well-Known Member
For sure brotha! I know your not an active defoliator, but it's cool your open to ideas, and at least lollipop ;) I don'tthink ddefoliation of the glue in flower would be good, but it does great in veg, maybe I should wait for the gdp, that way I can do a sog grow of 16 plants and do 1/2 defol 1/2 regular, I bet it would be a much better experiment, especially with more plants for control
Just so everyone knows, AP and I have become pals in real world. He knows how I feel about defoliating. I'm not into it;-)
But AP, i love the experiments. It really is the only way to find out. I love to see them fo sho.
Problem is, is with that glue. The gg4 is NOT a candidate for defoliating, if there ever is/was a strain that is NOT a candidate for defoliating. IMO of course.
Plenty of light gets through foliage with that cut;-)
Now, maybe if you run that experiment with the GDP next time? :hump:
Please? Lol
 

Darth Vapour

Well-Known Member
There has been lots of studies on this field and in most cases the defoliating lost .
Defoliating can be taken in many ways Pruning ?? if this is the case then by all means prune shape design your plant . in stages and in veg state
but removal of actual leafs is beyond what a person should really do its the driving force of the plant its only slows plants growth rates by stress it can also hermie the plant if strain is unstable .. creating also in balance in plants respiratory functions
These plants have grown and adapted for thousands of years its only function is to produce off spring in reality and lots of it ..
If that is the case then the plant would of evolved to naturally drop its leafs to produce more ???
Is this the case today ??? NOPE a plant will drop its leafs once there is no more sugars n starches in that leaf bank
All you have done by removing leafs is taken away the very thing plants need to survive ,, its not the NPK you feed it its what the plants converts it to and stores in its leafs for daily use and banked for later use
all you have done is taken away the batteries in the plant.
don't waste your fucking time with it train the plant for as many tops near any light source keep her green as long as you can in veg n flower and the plant will reward you
If anything remove them sucker buds in deep and low in the plant that are 4 feet away from light source .. they will never develop but rather suck the life out of the plant ,, hence sucker buds , suckers on tomato plants etc ..
so removal of lower buds sites , branches so plant can work on the quality buds sites on the plant in the money light zone :)
 
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trevronious

Well-Known Member
Have you ever looked into mainlining? There's a thread over in the organics section that you might find some useful info in. It's lengthy but if you're after the science (like myself) it'll be right up your alley. Nugbuckets has done some serious work experimenting with it. Link is HERE

Basically the idea is to eliminate any possibility of bottom popcorn nugs through pretty heavy defoliating/topping. The plant is topped early on and the two remaining branches act as a central 'hub' in which the entire plant is based off of. Further topping of each new shoot doubles the 'heads' (2, 4, 8, 16, 32 headed mainline ect.) of the mainline. The idea is to evenly distribute nutrients across the entire plant and end with x amount of equal full sized colas only. Adds about two weeks of veg time depending on the size so understandably it's not for everyone. I was just tired of getting larf across the bottom and absolutely love how the plant responds. Looks very tidy and really shows how amazing this plant is IMO. It took me a bit of reading to understand the concept but I've been using the technique for about two years now resulting in higher yields and overall better quality with the same strains. Again this is just my observation so take it with a grain of salt, but I wouldn't be doing it if there was no benefit. I wish I had the space to do some real comparisons but unfortunately I'm limited to a medium sized tent for personal stuff in an unfriendly state.


Example of an 8 headed mainline. Notice how uniform each top is. Almost modular possibilities with a tomato ring for max penetration. I always run mine with 8 for sake of size.



Not exactly traditional defoliation but I've never had any issues from doing so. Figured it may be worth a mention for here.
 

AlphaPhase

Well-Known Member
I've tried mainlined stems, it works well. I love a nice level top filled canopy as well. Let's not turn the thread into a peeing match though, let's keep the experiments on track

As I showed in the pics of the gorilla glue #4, they were heavy pruned in veg, worked great.

Screenshot_2015-05-25-16-42-30-1.png Screenshot_2015-05-25-16-42-15-1.png
 

trevronious

Well-Known Member
lol wasn't trying to start pissing on anything.

Was just curious to see if OP had seen the technique. I'll defoliate until the day I die personally. If I'm feeling lazy and don't mainline the bottom 20% is pretty much always taken care of on top of lst with or without topping.

Plants look real nice Alpha :bigjoint:
 

Abiqua

Well-Known Member
Im curious if anyone has studied botany in combination with wildlife science.....

Has anyone ever looked about animal influence [eating] on apical meristem development and apical dominance that is shaped from animals nipping at the leaves and buds etc....?
That has been studied, although probably not on cannabis.....but this could be a good example from nature where "defolation" of sorts occurs and the how the plant responds at those meristem sites.....

:peace:
 
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