Cutting Fan Leaves? A Mythbuster style experiment...

Hi all. I'm doing this because I'm really interested in the results and thought others might be too. I don't claim to be a master grower, but I do what works for me. I'm not looking for advice or arguments in this thread - if you want to argue, troll or flame, do it somewhere else. If you're interested in the results, stick around!

The Myth:
Trimming Fan leaves produces better yields.

Background:
The "No-Trim" camp claims that leaving all leaves,"as nature intended" makes for an overall healthier plant and therefore produces the best yield. The fan leaves provide most of the energy to the whole plant. Trimming leaves stresses the plant and weakens it, decreasing the yield.

The "Trim" camp claims that trimming out some or most the fan leaves makes for better yields by opening up the canopy to the get light to the lower / inner buds and colas. Removing the fan leaves stimulates the plant to replace those lost, but in bud form rather than as new fan leaf.

The Experiment:
One plant will be trained (LST) to produce 2 approx equal sides in terms of number and size of potential colas. Using 1 plant eliminates the variables of veg time, genetics, plant vigor, watering and feeding, etc... A white divider will be installed between the sides, shielding light/shade from each other. The lower portion of the shield will be open to allow for air and water circulation. This plant will cycle through my grow space, fed as usual and rotated 90 deg each day for even light distribution. Once placed into flower, neither side will recieve any additional branch training. Determined by coin toss, One side of the plant will be trimmed progressively throughout flower of about 50% of the fan leaves, the other side will be allowed to grow "naturally". (or as natural as it can under artificial HPS and CFL lighting, artificial wind, etc...)
At harvest, we'll take a look and see what we get...

"Yield" will be determined in 2 classes; average weight per cola and total weight.
If the trimmed side has a better yield in both classes, the myth is confirmed.
If the trimmed side wins one class but not the other, we'll call it plausible and do more experiments.
If both sides have similar yields in both classes, the myth is busted.

And like most mythbuster experiments, at the end of it all, there will be fire!!!
(sorry no explosions - I hope anyway)

Our test subject, a Grapefruit hashplant...


Tune in next time...

you should use two clones of the same plant. using the same plant would give you inaccurate results. one side of the plant may expel extra effort to help out the other side. this is a great idea though. reminds me of the later days of the roman empire. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East%E2%80%93West_Schism

Subbed!

angrygranola said:

you should use two clones of the same plant. using the same plant would give you inaccurate results. one side of the plant may expel extra effort to help out the other side. this is a great idea though. reminds me of the later days of the roman empire. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East%E2%80%93West_Schism

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I agree... One plant will only grow as best as IT can to adapt to the conditions .

I have tryed this myself and to be honest ... it never made much difference to trim and not to trim ... Maybe i was just lucky ?

Two plants ... under the same light ... same feed Schedule

Good luck with the experiment

seated ....

angrygranola said:

you should use two clones of the same plant. using the same plant would give you inaccurate results. one side of the plant may expel extra effort to help out the other side. this is a great idea though. reminds me of the later days of the roman empire. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East%E2%80%93West_Schism

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That's part of the experiment - The no-trim camp claims that the plant balances out and therefore won't improve anything. The trimming camp says energy is focused in individual areas.
We'll see! Depending on the results here, maybe I'll run one with 2 separate plants.
Thanks for stopping!

Interesting, I'll be watching

I agree that more plants would be better, but nice thread!

one plant wont work the fan leaf doesnt just feed the side its on, it feeds the plant as a whole

I've done a lot of pruning in my day.

It all depends on the plant and the lighting. Either method is about as the same in my book. The no-trimmers say the plant is going to suffer, have access to less energy, etc... And yet the harvest is about the same. The trimmers claim that the lower branches will develop and that as a result of more developed bud sites the yield will be heavier... yet the harvest is about the same.

It think that we don't really know the exact processes taking place. Especially on the hormonal, stress reaction, auxin level.

But, for the sake of discussion... I think that if a leaf is in the way, and cannot be displaced by bending, it can be removed without impacting harvest weight so long as there is adequate leaf beneath the one removed.

What this translates into for the every day grower is that it is okay to remove a leaf that blocks a bud site during vegetative growth, but you don't have to. When flowering begins the plant really slows the production of new leaves so hold on to whatever you have by that point and stop any defoliation after the first week of flowering.

I know that some growers claim that stripping the plant of fan leaves (anything with a stem) around day 50 of flowering results in a heavier, stickier, harvest. Of all things to test, that's what I'm most interested in as I understand the stress reaction in the plant could actually cause this.

One way or another. They still take you to the same place. High.

angrygranola said:

you should use two clones of the same plant. using the same plant would give you inaccurate results. one side of the plant may expel extra effort to help out the other side. this is a great idea though. reminds me of the later days of the roman empire. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East%E2%80%93West_Schism

Click to expand...

I agree using one plant kinda makes any conclusions untrustworthy since the leaves are part of the plant and trimming some of the plant would stress the entire plant affecting both sides, in theory.

Pipe Dream said:

I agree using one plant kinda makes any conclusions untrustworthy since the leaves are part of the plant and trimming some of the plant would stress the entire plant affecting both sides, in theory.

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Again - that's a primary part of the experiment - I want to find DOES trimming stress the entire plant. You say it yourself..."in theory".

Pullin' weeds said:

Again - that's a primary part of the experiment - I want to find DOES trimming stress the entire plant. You say it yourself..."in theory".

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Not really. I mean, it takes about 4 days and she is back to where she was before trimming. Here's some pictures about 10 days apart to see what I mean. Same plant (lighting change with HPS bulb so the color is a little off) Shark's Breath. Monster Cropped/Re-Vegged Clone.

Snow Crash - personally I pretty much agree with all the points you make. But I wanted to actually test it in some way and get actual results.

For all who say more plants would be better: I grow perpetually, 1 plant every 10 days, so this was the best experiment I could come up with for my situation, keeping variables to a minimum. If I run further experiment like this, I'll try running different plants. Maybe.

Pullin' weeds said:

Again - that's a primary part of the experiment - I want to find DOES trimming stress the entire plant. You say it yourself..."in theory".

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when you go outside and only have your arms exposed do only your arms get vitamin D or does your whole body? Your whole body get vitamin D even though only your arms/hands were exposed.

Micromaster said:

when you go outside and only have your arms exposed do only your arms get vitamin D or does your whole body? Your whole body get vitamin D even though only your arms/hands were exposed.

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Yes, but your whole body does NOT get tan.

This is just an experiment - everyone has their own ideas, but I haven't seen anyone with any real data.

Micromaster said:

when you go outside and only have your arms exposed do only your arms get vitamin D or does your whole body? Your whole body get vitamin D even though only your arms/hands were exposed.

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Let this statement go down as something you just said.

:facepalm:

A human body is covered in Epidermis, a single organ that contains all kinds of different cells.

The stem of a plant does not contain the same cells (in the same concentration) as in the leaves. The surface area of stem to leaf alone completely shatters your comparison of body to arm versus leaf to stem, much less the apples to oranges comparison of skin and vitamin D to chlorophyll and a complex chemical process releasing electrons from charged elements.

Epic fail dude.

I realize some of you out there have all the answers - but again, I'm doing this for my own benefit, for my own unique situation. NOT yours. If YOU don't think it's worth trying, that's fine. I don't need to hear about it.

Thanks for the interest from the rest of you.

but something to think about...
A tree grown in partial shade does not grow nearly as well in the shaded parts. Yes it grows, but the parts in the sun grow faster and bigger.
It does NOT grow symetrically.

Pullin' weeds said:

Again - that's a primary part of the experiment - I want to find DOES trimming stress the entire plant. You say it yourself..."in theory".

Click to expand...

How could you determine if the plant was stressed or worse for the wear if you have no control plant? W/out a secondplant there is no comparisons to make. Sure maybe one side would grow better than the other but still you have reasonable doubt that the other side wasn't compromised and not allowed to grow to it's full potential. Again no clonclusions could come from this experiment, if you woul use two clones I would be interested in following but kind of just seems like a wase of time.

I don't understand why people say no data can come from this.
Why would I have any reasonable doubt that one side was compromised? I'm doing everything I can to make for even light distribution. The same plant ensures there can be no differences in watering, soil absorbtion, feeding etc.... If there is no difference from side to side, then the no-trimmers are right - whatever you do affects the plant equally. But say the trimmed side is double the non trimmed side? then what?

Lets wait for the results (or at least any results...) before we deem this a failure.

But if you don't want to see any results, it's no skin off my face...