Capitalism 2.0 Will Include a Healthy Dose of Socialism

UncleBuck

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Rob Roy said:
Oh okaaaaay, numbnuts ! You can have some crumbs.


Below is excerpted from a Voluntaryist website. Enjoy

The Economic Argument
People engage in voluntary exchanges because they anticipate improving their lot; the only individuals capable of judging the merits of an exchange are the parties to it. Voluntaryism follows naturally if no one does anything to stop it. The interplay of natural property and exchanges results in a free market price system, which conveys the necessary information needed to make intelligent economic decisions. Interventionism and collectivism make economic calculation impossible because they disrupt the free market price system. Even the smallest government intervention leads to problems which justify the call for more and more intervention. Also, “controlled” economies leave no room for new inventions, new ways of doing things, or for the “unforeseeable and unpredictable.” Free market competition is a learning process which brings about results which no one can know in advance. There is no way to tell how much harm has been done and will continue to be done by political restrictions.
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you don't understand your own retarded economic theories so you have to copy and paste gibberish from a fantasy website

goddamn you are a pathetic loser
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
With that attitude yer defeated before you even begin. Over half of the new democratic congress is progressive, I would suggest you get behind HR1 for the next couple of years and become a fanatic about, it addresses many of your concerns.

America is still a democratic country, flawed, but who ain't, don't be such a perfectionist, your vote and work count towards the outcome. America's problem is racism and tribalism that those you oppose help to foment and use against the country to maintain power.

Believe it or not ya gotta fight for freedom, it wasn't just the job of those who came before, but is everybody's responsibility in the here and now. Start by being part of the progressive wing of the democrats and going to where the sausage of policy is made, support HR1 and put pressure on all the elected officials in your life, indivisible showed the way and the results are now in the house of representatives.
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It's important to understand the truth of the situation one would attempt to influence.

You put a lot of words in my mouth here, none of which I said or sanction.

The first step in any revolution is to tell those being oppressed the truth about their situation. Most Americans are wildly misinformed about how their country really works, who benefits and how the current state of affairs is perpetuated.

Once enough people understand what's going on, being done to Innocents abroad in their names, etc, then step two- doing something about it- becomes a viable option.

If you think half of the Democrats newly elected to Congress are progressive in more than name, I'm not the one being deluded.

Perhaps you should start by asking me why I feel the way I do instead of blithely and wrongly trying to tell me what I said and then attempting to tell me what to do.
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
It's important to understand the truth of the situation one would attempt to influence.

You put a lot of words in my mouth here, none of which I said or sanction.

The first step in any revolution is to tell those being oppressed the truth about their situation. Most Americans are wildly misinformed about how their country really works, who benefits and how the current state of affairs is perpetuated.

Once enough people understand what's going on, being done to Innocents abroad in their names, etc, then step two- doing something about it- becomes a viable option.

If you think half of the Democrats newly elected to Congress are progressive in more than name, I'm not the one being deluded.

Perhaps you should start by asking me why I feel the way I do instead of blithely and wrongly trying to tell me what I said and then attempting to tell me what to do.
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I put no words in your mouth, but responded to your post.

Evolution is better than revolution and not enough people want a revolution anyway, people want reform.

As for innocents abroad, wait until you've seen cold war 2, I'm all in favor of re introducing the Russians to the stone age until they do in Vlad. When you get yerself a real president I'm pretty sure he/she will agree and since Vlad attacked every western democracy including mine, they are going to get a lot of enthusiastic support. You have no idea of the retribution that is yet to come, Vlad is an existential threat who will be removed period, look for trouble ahead in this area.

I believe I have a reasonable grasp of the American and global situation, I'm sure there are lots of conspiracy theories and "alternative facts out there, but they don't impress me much, facts do though.

America is moving to the left at light speed, Donald has done a lot to accelerate this, 4 to 6 years will see the almost complete demise of the right in America, I figure in a decade ya won't recognize the place if HR1 becomes law.

BTW Bernie supports HR1 and you should too.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
I put no words in your mouth, but responded to your post.

Evolution is better than revolution and not enough people want a revolution anyway, people want reform.

As for innocents abroad, wait until you've seen cold war 2, I'm all in favor of re introducing the Russians to the stone age until they do in Vlad. When you get yerself a real president I'm pretty sure he/she will agree and since Vlad attacked every western democracy including mine, they are going to get a lot of enthusiastic support. You have no idea of the retribution that is yet to come, Vlad is an existential threat who will be removed period, look for trouble ahead in this area.

I believe I have a reasonable grasp of the American and global situation, I'm sure there are lots of conspiracy theories and "alternative facts out there, but they don't impress me much, facts do though.

America is moving to the left at light speed, Donald has done a lot to accelerate this, 4 to 6 years will see the almost complete demise of the right in America, I figure in a decade ya won't recognize the place if HR1 becomes law.

BTW Bernie supports HR1 and you should too.
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Russia is not the bogeyman the corporate media says it is; they have an economy the size of South Korea's and a military budget only a 15th the size of the US'. They have only been shown to buy a few thousand dollars' worth of ads on social media.

By contrast, we engineered the installation of Boris Yeltsin as president, an unmitigated disaster for their country and of course blatant evidence of our willingness to meddle in their domestic politics, leaving us with zero credibility to complain. Then there's the American led Independence movement of Ukraine- which most Ukrainian citizens didn't ask for and don't want.

Putin isn't the threat; we are.

Watch the YouTube clip I posted under Edward Snowden tonight for a better idea of how well your constitutional rights are being respected by our federal government in a time of peace. Imagine what they'll do once they have the war they're so busily manufacturing consent for.

Frankly, I disagree with your self assessment of your knowledge of world affairs and categorically disagree with your conclusions.

You have at least engaged me in discussion with more respect than most here have been able to do and I'll respond in kind.

The Left in this country is growing; from a cockroach under the jackboot to a mouse. 'Reform and incrementalism' is the constant refrain of the Democratic Party, which has seen the likes of Barack Obama openly bragging that he governed to the right of Ronald Reagan and the outright subversion of the will of the American voting public so often they think it's their right to do so.

So no, I don't think a few tweaks are in order. I think the entire system is completely rotten and will come crashing down around our ears if we don't empty into the streets tomorrow and demand a complete overhaul of our entire system. Since that's not likely to happen- in part because many Americans believe what you do- we're pretty much fucked.

Soooooo what's on Netflix?
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
Russia is not the bogeyman the corporate media says it is; they have an economy the size of South Korea's and a military budget only a 15th the size of the US'. They have only been shown to buy a few thousand dollars' worth of ads on social media.

By contrast, we engineered the installation of Boris Yeltsin as president, an unmitigated disaster for their country and of course blatant evidence of our willingness to meddle in their domestic politics, leaving us with zero credibility to complain. Then there's the American led Independence movement of Ukraine- which most Ukrainian citizens didn't ask for and don't want.

Putin isn't the threat; we are.

Watch the YouTube clip I posted under Edward Snowden tonight for a better idea of how well your constitutional rights are being respected by our federal government in a time of peace. Imagine what they'll do once they have the war they're so busily manufacturing consent for.

Frankly, I disagree with your self assessment of your knowledge of world affairs and categorically disagree with your conclusions.

You have at least engaged me in discussion with more respect than most here have been able to do and I'll respond in kind.

The Left in this country is growing; from a cockroach under the jackboot to a mouse. 'Reform and incrementalism' is the constant refrain of the Democratic Party, which has seen the likes of Barack Obama openly bragging that he governed to the right of Ronald Reagan and the outright subversion of the will of the American voting public so often they think it's their right to do so.

So no, I don't think a few tweaks are in order. I think the entire system is completely rotten and will come crashing down around our ears if we don't empty into the streets tomorrow and demand a complete overhaul of our entire system. Since that's not likely to happen- in part because many Americans believe what you do- we're pretty much fucked.

Soooooo what's on Netflix?
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Russia has an economy smaller than Italy and even though the people are not responsible they will none the less suffer until they deal with Putin. I do not agree with your world view or that of Chris Hedges (I've watched a few of his videos) and my view of Edward Snowden is that he's a traitor. Your country is at war and has been attacked, that tends to make people less tolerant and I'm no exception because my country has been attacked too. I want payback, but that is no reason for action, the existential threat posed by Putin is.

Yer a poster child for the "radical left" and while I'm pretty left of center myself I try to avoid the ditch and the realm of conspiracy theorists. I don't think Hedges is a conspiracy theorist, he is a smart guy who's perspective is warped by his life experiences.

Nobody is going to join a revolution unless conditions in the country become unbearable, have a look around at your own house and those of your neighbors, the majority of people are fucking near living in a materialistic paradise. While yer waiting for the revolution, use that energy to push reform, societies evolve, upward or the spiral downward.

We make history it doesn't just happen, if you don't think a small group of determined people can change the world, tell me when it has been otherwise?
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Rob Roy said:
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You didn't appear to know that the bill of rights is a separate document, or for that matter that the job of the courts is the interpretation of the constitution. Laws are only "legal" if they are in concordance with the constitution and the courts determine that, among other things.

Fuck, I'm a Canadian and I know this shit, yer sure some American. Can you name the capital city of your country? (With out looking it up!):p:lol:


https://billofrightsinstitute.org/founding-documents/bill-of-rights/
"The first 10 amendments to the Constitution make up the Bill of Rights. James Madison wrote the amendments, which list specific prohibitions on governmental power, in response to calls from several states for greater constitutional protection for individual liberties."

and
"Madison, then a member of the U.S. House of Representatives, altered the Constitution’s text where he thought appropriate. However, several representatives, led by Roger Sherman, objected, saying that Congress had no authority to change the wording of the Constitution. Therefore, Madison’s changes were presented as a list of amendments that would follow Article VII."
 
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Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
corn is going for 8 dollars a bushel.
a bushel of wheat will make 42 commercial loaves of bread.
a loaf of bread sells for 2.99 around here.
that's $125.00 that the store is making while the farmer is making 8 bucks....
of course the bakery takes their cut, but the point is...farmers make 8 bucks a bushel, bakers probably make 5 times as much, and stores make 15 times as much....
that's the real math of farming
 
Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
The first step in any revolution is to tell those being oppressed the truth about their situation. Most Americans are wildly misinformed about how their country really works, who benefits and how the current state of affairs is perpetuated.
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*how do you plan to do that? they won't believe you. they've bought into trump and his insanity, and will have no fucking interest in being "liberated" by you...
people who don't back trump still already have their own agenda. you can run down the middle of main street painted red on fire, screaming the "truth"....and they won't hear it...
you have to rub their faces in it...hard...make it un-ignorable. telling people does fuck all...they may hear you, but they won't HEAR anything they don't want to...

ttystikk said:
Once enough people understand what's going on, being done to Innocents abroad in their names, etc, then step two- doing something about it- becomes a viable option.

*what's enough people? every bit of information you have is available to anyone who wants to see it....they don't want to see it. how are you going to get them to acknowledge something they refuse to see?

If you think half of the Democrats newly elected to Congress are progressive in more than name, I'm not the one being deluded.

*as far as i can tell the difference between a liberal and a progressive is that a liberal will try to fix a problem, usually with tax money. a progressive will try to fix a problem with tax money, then they'll try to shut down the business, and put all the employees out of work...
i know that progressives want to fix the root of the problem...but people are the root of the problem...and you can't fix people. they're born fucked up, and die fucked up...

Perhaps you should start by asking me why I feel the way I do instead of blithely and wrongly trying to tell me what I said and then attempting to tell me what to do.
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that would be nice, Tty...why don't you try it? you called Fog a corporate shill without doing more than reading one statement.....you have something to say about everyone who doesn't agree with you....so why do you expect anything different in return?...
 
Unclebaldrick

Unclebaldrick

Well-Known Member
Roger A. Shrubber said:
*how do you plan to do that? they won't believe you. they've bought into trump and his insanity, and will have no fucking interest in being "liberated" by you...
people who don't back trump still already have their own agenda. you can run down the middle of main street painted red on fire, screaming the "truth"....and they won't hear it...
you have to rub their faces in it...hard...make it un-ignorable. telling people does fuck all...they may hear you, but they won't HEAR anything they don't want to...



that would be nice, Tty...why don't you try it? you called Fog a corporate shill without doing more than reading one statement.....you have something to say about everyone who doesn't agree with you....so why do you expect anything different in return?...
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Maybe if Tty finds himself with a captive audience that simply cannot get away from him, he can drum up enough converts to form his own Symbionese Liberation Army. Or they will just beat the fuck out of him.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
Russia is not the bogeyman the corporate media says it is; they have an economy the size of South Korea's and a military budget only a 15th the size of the US'. They have only been shown to buy a few thousand dollars' worth of ads on social media.

By contrast, we engineered the installation of Boris Yeltsin as president, an unmitigated disaster for their country and of course blatant evidence of our willingness to meddle in their domestic politics, leaving us with zero credibility to complain. Then there's the American led Independence movement of Ukraine- which most Ukrainian citizens didn't ask for and don't want.

Putin isn't the threat; we are.

Watch the YouTube clip I posted under Edward Snowden tonight for a better idea of how well your constitutional rights are being respected by our federal government in a time of peace. Imagine what they'll do once they have the war they're so busily manufacturing consent for.

Frankly, I disagree with your self assessment of your knowledge of world affairs and categorically disagree with your conclusions.

You have at least engaged me in discussion with more respect than most here have been able to do and I'll respond in kind.

The Left in this country is growing; from a cockroach under the jackboot to a mouse. 'Reform and incrementalism' is the constant refrain of the Democratic Party, which has seen the likes of Barack Obama openly bragging that he governed to the right of Ronald Reagan and the outright subversion of the will of the American voting public so often they think it's their right to do so.

So no, I don't think a few tweaks are in order. I think the entire system is completely rotten and will come crashing down around our ears if we don't empty into the streets tomorrow and demand a complete overhaul of our entire system. Since that's not likely to happen- in part because many Americans believe what you do- we're pretty much fucked.

Soooooo what's on Netflix?
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The Russian government attacked the US through its electoral system and the US is completely justified to take actions to defend itself. The Mueller investigation is all about uncovering what Putin's agents did so that we can better do so.

Even without the Mueller investigation, there is plenty of evidence to make the case that Trump is hiding financial ties in the form of multi-million dollar debt held by Russian oligarchs and Putin. It is reasonable to ask what these ties are and do they influence Trump administration policy? Again, the Mueller investigation is all about establishing proof of these relationships so that the people of the US will not have to depend on tty's logical fallacies, laughable bungling of historical facts and appeals to morality to make their decision.

We'll see what Mueller has uncovered when the information becomes available. Until then, we have what has been made available which is damning enough regarding inappropriate communications between Trump's campaign and Russian agents but insufficient to say one way or the other if Trump will be impeached and removed from office.

Yes, the socialist-leaning left that call themselves Progressives have not grown in number, the "Progressive Caucus" numbers 78 members today compared to 80 members in 2010. What has changed are the number of conservatives -- members of the Blue Dog Coalition -- from 80 in 2010 to only 24 members today. The Democrats who are members of neither of those caucuses support crucial progressive legislation more than 80% of the time. There WAS a shift to the left in the Democratic Party's leadership in 2018 and no reason to believe the trend ends there.

So, maybe we can please not have a revolution that will begin with the death of our elderly and infirm, followed by the deaths of tens of millions more? Maybe we can try to work this out civilly rather than with the breakdown of our society?
 
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ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
The Russian government attacked the US through its electoral system and the US is completely justified to take actions to defend itself. The Mueller investigation is all about uncovering what Putin's agents did so that we can better do so.

Even without the Mueller investigation, there is plenty of evidence to make the case that Trump is hiding financial ties in the form of multi-million dollar debt held by Russian oligarchs and Putin. It is reasonable to ask what these ties are and do they influence Trump administration policy? Again, the Mueller investigation is all about establishing proof of these relationships so that the people of the US will not have to depend on tty's logical fallacies, laughable bungling of historical facts and appeals to morality to make their decision.

We'll see what Mueller has uncovered when the information becomes available. Until then, we have what has been made available which is damning enough regarding inappropriate communications between Trump's campaign and Russian agents but insufficient to say one way or the other if Trump will be impeached and removed from office.

Yes, the socialist-leaning left that call themselves Progressives have not grown in number, the "Progressive Caucus" numbers 78 members today compared to 80 members in 2010. What has changed are the number of conservatives -- members of the Blue Dog Coalition -- from 80 in 2010 to only 24 members today. The Democrats who are members of neither of those caucuses support crucial progressive legislation more than 80% of the time. There WAS a shift to the left in the Democratic Party's leadership in 2018 and no reason to believe the trend ends there.

So, maybe we can please not have a revolution that will begin with the death of our elderly and infirm, followed by the deaths of tens of millions more? Maybe we can try to work this out civilly rather than with the breakdown of our society?
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So whatever we did to the Russians was totally okay. You're hopeless. Keep watching Rachel Maddow.

That's exactly why things won't get better until they get a lot worse. And they're getting worse.
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
So whatever we did to the Russians was totally okay. You're hopeless. Keep watching Rachel Maddow.

That's exactly why things won't get better until they get a lot worse. And they're getting worse.
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We helped set them free, but they fucked up and are stuck with Putin and will pay a terrible price for it.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
So whatever we did to the Russians was totally okay. You're hopeless. Keep watching Rachel Maddow.

That's exactly why things won't get better until they get a lot worse. And they're getting worse.
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What the Russians did was attack the US. I said that we should inform ourselves about what that was and take steps to defend ourselves. How does that "make things worse"?

What the US did 20 years ago to influence elections in Russia and undeniably has done more recently in other countries is wrong and doesn't make what Russia did OK. Your argument is based upon the logical fallacy of a false equivalence and an appeal to morality, not facts. Do you disagree that the US should defend itself from outside influence in our elections?

Also, Trump is most certainly financially beholden to Russian organized crime bosses, aka "Oligarchs". The Mueller investigation is following the evidence and we'll see what he has on this subject when it comes available. His mission is not a distraction. It is a fact finding mission so that either Congress or, two years hence, the electorate, can remove Trump from the Presidency if the evidence is sufficiently damning.

Meanwhile, the people of this country have voted resoundingly for left of center politicians. The 78 members of the "Progressive Caucus" has a stronger voice than ever with this group. That's a good thing, maybe even progress, isn't it?
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
What the Russians did was attack the US. I said that we should inform ourselves about what that was and take steps to defend ourselves. How does that "make things worse"?

What the US did 20 years ago to influence elections in Russia and undeniably has done more recently in other countries is wrong and doesn't make what Russia did OK. Your argument is based upon the logical fallacy of a false equivalence and an appeal to morality, not facts. Do you disagree that the US should defend itself from outside influence in our elections?

Also, Trump is most certainly financially beholden to Russian organized crime bosses, aka "Oligarchs". The Mueller investigation is following the evidence and we'll see what he has on this subject when it comes available. His mission is not a distraction. It is a fact finding mission so that either Congress or, two years hence, the electorate, can remove Trump from the Presidency if the evidence is sufficiently damning.

Meanwhile, the people of this country have voted resoundingly for left of center politicians. The 78 members of the "Progressive Caucus" has a stronger voice than ever with this group. That's a good thing, maybe even progress, isn't it?
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This is so full of crap it needs a good flushing.

First, what we did to Russian elections was far worse than anything they've been accused of here. Second, threatening war is just silly over a few Facebook posts.

Moving on to the 'Democratic Progressive Caucus'; it's a lie. Most delicates on it are moderate conservatives and they're only on the caucus to fill the unwary. I know you hate it when we look at voting records but they'll tell the truth.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
This is so full of crap it needs a good flushing.

First, what we did to Russian elections was far worse than anything they've been accused of here. Second, threatening war is just silly over a few Facebook posts.

Moving on to the 'Democratic Progressive Caucus'; it's a lie. Most delicates on it are moderate conservatives and they're only on the caucus to fill the unwary. I know you hate it when we look at voting records but they'll tell the truth.
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What does what happened in 1996 have to do with Russians attacking our democracy by interfering in our elections in 2016? Are you saying that the US has no right to defend itself from this kind of attack because of what we did 20 years ago?

In the past, the term "progressive meant a person who supports progress. There have been conservative and liberal progressives too. It would be more accurate to label a left of center liberal a "liberal progressive". Your kind have quite rationally taken the word "progressive" and shaped it to mean whatever you like. What you advocate is rapid radical change and call it "Progressive".

I get why your kind have made up your own definition. "Far left" or "radical left" or "socialist Democrat", all of which more accurately describe your politics are clearly not politically viable except in small districts. Cult of Sanders hasn't fooled anybody either. Near as I can tell, only about 9 or 10 of your kind won a national office. Given that there are 235 Democrats and only about 10 of your radical kind seated, they will have to be better at working well with others than Sanders has shown himself to be.

Peter Defazio, the representative of my congressional district in the House of Reps is listed as a member of the Progressive Caucus. What about him would you say makes him not "Progressive"?

Legislative history:
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/congress-trump-score/peter-a-defazio/
https://ballotpedia.org/Peter_DeFazio


2018 Endorsements
Here is a record on how various groups have rated him. Conservative groups hate him, liberal groups like him. Which ratings group best represents your interests?

https://votesmart.org/candidate/evaluations/27037/peter-defazio#.XDK9SlxKiUk
 
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