Cant maintain my PH down

T

theblack

Member
I cant seam to get my ph to stay down:wall:

I'm on my fifth week of veg and my plants are looking pretty sad. :-(This is my third grow but the first time using this set up. Built me a new system on advice of the guys at my hydro store but I'm regretting it big time!

Here's my setup:
**24 Jack Herrer's in 5 gallon buckets filled with Grodan stonewool.
**12 600 watt lamps for veg.
**44 gallon feeding res
**feeding every 12 hours about 500ppm. I know the ppm is low but my plants are in intensive care at the moment.
**using RO water
**Dutch Glory-Shiva and B nutes W/cobra

Things that i have already done over the last couple of weeks.

1. flushed system. feeding plain ro PHed water at 5.3 until i get back, in my return line, no more than 100ppm and 5.8.

next day mesaured the run off of individual buckets while feeding 5.3 and gettin back 6.4 even after 5 gallons of feed still over 6.0.

2. A few days later I feed several buckets individually catching all the runoof until I got back 5.6-5.7.

next day 6.3 runoff again:wall: even though i was feeding it 5.3 feed.

One more thing there is a good amount of algae covering the top of the stonewool. Im not sure if algae can be affecting PH so drastically. I always thought that Algae was harmless?
PLEASE HELP!
 
I

i4204lyfe8424

Member
My DWC is doing the same thing. Except my roots haven't even reached the solution yet.

I"ll go to bed then wake up 6 hours later to find out my pH went from 5.5 to 7.3 !!!. I then put a gram of pH down to get it back to 5.5-5.8, then what happens 2 hours later it's back up to 7 !!! I'm getting nervous putting so much pH down formula in there the water is really musty

What the heck is going on here.
 
T

theblack

Member
i4204lyfe8424 said:
My DWC is doing the same thing. Except my roots haven't even reached the solution yet...............What the heck is going on here.
Click to expand...
my roots are not yet at the soultion either but the soution at the bottom of the bucket, at least in my case, is going to have the same high ph.
 
trichome addict

trichome addict

Active Member
@ theblack, did you set your rock wool at the desired ph before you started your grow?
i mean did you soak it in pre ph,d water to begin with?
i ask because not doing so could lead to this,rockwool has a high ph straight from the manufacturers.
 
T

theblack

Member
trichome addict said:
@ theblack, did you set your rock wool at the desired ph before you started your grow?
i mean did you soak it in pre ph,d water to begin with?
i ask because not doing so could lead to this,rockwool has a high ph straight from the manufacturers.
Click to expand...
Unfortuantely, i did not soak the rockwool for a couple of days but once i set up the buckets i ran ph balanced water for hours. I know thats not exactly the same but that was almost three weeks ago. Is it possible after hundreds of gallons of ph adjusted water that the rock wool is still screwing with me?
I'm thinking maybe the alage growing on the top of the buckets
 
trichome addict

trichome addict

Active Member
how many buckets in your set up?
you mentiond they were 5 gallon,im just thinking you may be dealing with large amounts of rockwool,
i use the smaller blocks in nft,and know it can mess your ph,but as you say after three weeks and all that water it would be unlikley.
 
T

theblack

Member
trichome addict said:
how many buckets in your set up?
you mentiond they were 5 gallon,im just thinking you may be dealing with large amounts of rockwool,
i use the smaller blocks in nft,and know it can mess your ph,but as you say after three weeks and all that water it would be unlikley.
Click to expand...
There are 24 buckets and i used roughly 75 pounds(almost 2-45lb bags).
 
trichome addict

trichome addict

Active Member
well yeah thats a pretty large amount,
it would take some flushing before you would get that to maintain a stable ph.
have you got any rockwool experience prior to this?
 
T

theblack

Member
I have two grows with rockwool slabs on dutch trays. I did soak them before i started using them. I just didnt relize how important it was. I tought running the system for a few hours would be enough to neutralize the rockwool.

Any insight on the impact of the algae on ph?
 
trichome addict

trichome addict

Active Member
algae shouldnt affect your ph,but it does cause other problems,
i cover my nfts with blackout plastic,doing the same with the buckets couldnt hurt.
 
trichome addict

trichome addict

Active Member
flushing all your buckets again with ph adjusted water and low ppm again is all i can think of at the moment,
that and a res change,
hopefully some of the other guys that do hydro here will have some ideas what else it may be.
 
T

theblack

Member
trichome addict said:
flushing all your buckets again with ph adjusted water and low ppm again is all i can think of at the moment,
that and a res change,
hopefully some of the other guys that do hydro here will have some ideas what else it may be.
Click to expand...
I'm still curious of how big of an impact the algae on the top of the rockwool in my 5 gallon buckets are having on PH?
 
Roseman

Roseman

Elite Rolling Society
Here is all i know about pH:
Temperature of water makes a big difference in the pH of water.
Shaking and stirring the meter in the water, makes a slight difference.
Turning the meter on IN the water and turning it on OUT of the water, makes a slight difference.
Turning it OFF and ON in the same water, makes a difference. Waiting three minutes yields a different reading too.

pH is measured on a scale from 1.0 to 14.0. Pure water has a pH of 7.0 and is considered pH neutral. pH below 7.0 is considered to be acidic and pH higher than 7.0 is considered to be alkaline.
A substance that decreases pH (pH-down) is called an acid while a substance that increases pH (pH-up) is called a base. A substance that helps nutrient solutions resist pH changes when an acid or base is added, is called a buffer. ..or stabilizer.
A pH difference of 1.0 is equal to a ten times increase or decrease in pH. That is, a nutrient solution with a pH of 6.0 is ten times as acidic as a nutrient solution with a pH of 7.0. A pH difference of 2.0 is equal to a hundred times increase or decrease in pH.
It is very important to keep the pH level in your water within certain limits when growing marijuana. Most grow-books say strive for 5.9, or some books say 5.6 to 6.2. Some books say 5.5 to 6.5, and you will not find two books that say the exact same thing. Growers need to monitor the pH of their nutrient solution and keep it within recommended levels.
The pH level of your hydroponic nutrient solution will determine how well your plants are able to eat and absorb nutrients. If the pH level is out of the proper range, the growth rate of the plants will slow down or stop.

Almost a 1/4 of all the problems I read about that growers experience are due to pH problems.
There are pH meters and test strips to test the pH of your water.
There are additives, or chemicals, made to adjust it, called pH UP and pH Down. These additives are to be used in very small amounts, like one gram, or 1/4 level teaspoon per gallon of water. (just a pinch)


First you have to realize that the pH is going to change daily as the nutrients are eaten. That means adjusting it daily. Goal is that those daily changes be slight and not major or drastic. And too remember, different sources of water yield different pH problems.

You have to have pH balanced nutes, and normal regular water or a buffer or a stabilizer in the water to keep it from roller coasting and spiking up and down.

I've done some research on pH Control and I 'd like to offer some advice and my opinion.

NEW growers worry about it too too much, and the biggest mistake they make is trying for a perfect contstant same pH.
You will do better, to just try to keep it between 5.6 and 6.8 without changing it often. Plants eat more nitrogen at 5.7 to 5.9 than at 6.7 to 6.8. But they eat more iron and magnesium at 6.5 to 6.8. You need a fluctuating pH level for your plants to absorb different nutes at different levels.
When you prepare your water, add nutes and pH test it, no matter what the results, if it is between 5.6 and 6.4, leave it alone or only adjust it slightly by .1 to .2 down.
Do NOT try to make it exactly 5.9.
DO NOT PLAY the pH Game.
Do NOT ride the pH Roller Coaster.
Do NOT adjust it more than .5 in 4 hours.

It is better to be off, too high, or too low, than to adjust it too much at one time.

Drastic or FAST adjustments really mess up the entire system.
Adjust gradually, and slowly.





The pH should not vary more than .5 to .7 everyday, and if it does flucuate alot more up OR down daily, something is wrong.
First, ask yourself, IF growing in HYDRO, what is going into the tank? Water, Nutes, pH UP and Down should be it. Adding anything else, WHEN YOU DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM, is not the wisest thing to do. (Yes, sometimes some small amount of peroxide or hydrozyme might be needed, but I've done 7 grows without it.)
And if you are making NUTE SOUP, ( a nute mix and supplement mix of more than two nutrients) I can not help you or advise you about your pH.

Except for the very first time you add the water to the tank, You should pH balance your water FIRST, everytime, outside of the tank, then add the nutes, pH balance it again, then add it to the tank. Rule of thumb is your pH should not go up more than .5 within one 12 hour day or 1.0 in 24 hours.
If it does go up more in one day or two days, you got to do something to stabilize it. After the first two or 3 weeks pass, and the plants are drinking a gallon a day, you can add one gallon back that is over adjusted or over compensated, to get it back down. FOR EXAMPLE, If the tank is reading 7.2, then add one gallon of 6.2, and you'll get it down SOME, without it being too drastic.
DRASTIC pH CHANGES WITHIN 24 HOURS ARE VERY DANGEROUS.

IF YOU ARE HAVING A PROBLEM, AND ONLY IF IT IS GOING UP AND DOWN WILDLY, then try adding a lump of charcoal or two, tied in a panty hose or nylon stocking to the tank.
OR
Go to Walmart or PetSmart to the Aquarium Dept, next to the fish food, filters and additives and sea salts, and get those little packages of Ammonia Control absorbent packets. They look like little sponges in a wrapper. They work great to stabilize the pH. Or get the Ammonia control packets and add a couple to the tank.
IF YOU ARE HAVING A PROBLEM, AND ONLY IF IT IS GOING UP AND DOWN WILDLY, and you need a remedy then get everything in your tank like you want it, (except the roots or plants,) and add two heaping tablespoons of baking soda to a gallon of water,Stir it good, then add it to the tank. Wait ten or 15 minutes, then pH adjust it again. Then it should stay stabilized until the next Drain and Replenish.

From the book:
A buffer solution is an aqueous solution consisting of a mixture of a weak acid and its conjugate base or a weak base and its conjugate acid. It has the property that the pH of the solution changes very little when a small amount of acid or base is added to it. Buffer solutions are used as a means of keeping pH at a nearly constant value in a wide variety of chemical applications.

IF YOU ARE HAVING A PROBLEM, AND ONLY IF IT IS GOING UP AND DOWN WILDLY,
you can simply add two heaping table spoons of baking soda to your water, (before you put it in the tank). Yes, it will wreck the pH, but then you adjust it with pH Down, OUT OF YOUR TANK, and then it will stay more stable for a few days longer.


Primarily what one needs to add to the water are neutralizers and buffers that will stabilize the acid and alkaline levels to the degree that is required for the plants. Most of these stabilizing products are sold in great volume at any pet store that specialized in aquariums and tropical fish and if one is not familiar with what product to purchase, then one should consult with the qualified salespeople so as to arrive at a specific product that will properly address the specific needs of the fish and their owner. You want something that reduces the acid.

First you have to realize that the pH is going to change daily as the nutrients are eaten. That means adjusting it daily. Goal is that those daily changes be slight and not major or drastic. And too, different sources of water yield different pH problems. The most difficult water is water HIGH in Minerals, or water that has NO minerals, like Filtered or Distilled water.

You have to have pH balanced nutes, or a buffer or a stabilizer in the water to keep it from roller coasting and spiking up and down.

I've done some research on pH Control and I 'd like to offer some advice and my opinion.

NEW growers worry about it too too much, and the biggest mistake they make is trying for a perfect contstant same pH.

Some grower books say strive for 5.9. Some books say between 5.6 and 6.8. Some experts recommend 5.7 to 6.3.
None agree or say the same thing although they all say keep it in the middle of acidity and alkaline.

You will do better, to just try to keep it between 5.6 and 6.8 without changing it often or more often than daily. Plants eat more nitrogen at 5.7 to 5.9 than at 6.7 to 6.9. But they eat more iron and magnesium at 6.5 to 6.8. You need a fluctuating pH level for your plants to absorb different nutes at different levels.
When you prepare your water, add nutes and pH test it, no matter what the results, if it is between 5.6 and 6.4, leave it alone or only adjust it slightly by .1 to .2 down.
DO NOT PLAY the pH Game.
Do NOT ride the pH Roller Coaster.
Limit adjsutments to once a day.
Avoid going UP and Down the same day.

It is better to be off, too high, or too low, than to adjust it too much at one time in one day.


Drastic or FAST adjustments really mess up the entire system.
Adjust gradually, and slowly.





The pH will vary daily, but should not vary more than .5 to .7 everyday, and if it does flucuate alot more up OR down daily, something is wrong.
First, ask yourself, IF growing in HYDRO, what is going into the tank? Water, Nutes, pH UP and Down should be it. Adding anything else, WHEN YOU DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM, is not the wisest thing to do. (Yes, sometimes some small amount of peroxide or hydrozyme might be needed, but I've done 7 grows without it.)
And if you are making NUTE SOUP, ( a nutrient mix and supplement mix of more than two nutrients, supplements or catalysts) I can not advise you or help you with your pH.

Except for the very first time you add the water to the tank, You should pH balance your water FIRST, everytime, outside of the tank, then add the nutes, pH balance it again, then add it to the tank. It should not go up more than .5 within 12 hours or 1.0 in 24 hours.
If it does go up more in one day, you got to do something to stabilize it. After the first two or 3 weeks pass, and the plants are drinking a gallon a day, you can add one gallon back that is over adjusted or over compensated, to get it back down. FOR EXAMPLE, If the tank is reading 7.2, then add one gallon of 6.0, and you'll get it down SOME, without it being too drastic.
DRASTIC pH CHANGES WITHIN 24 HOURS ARE VERY DANGEROUS.


IF YOU ARE HAVING WILD EXTREME FLUCUATIONS,
try adding a lump of charcoal or two, tied in a panty hose or nylon stocking to the tank.
IF YOU ARE HAVING WILD EXTREME FLUCUATIONS,
go to Walmart or PetSmart to the Aquarium Dept, next to the fish food, filters and additives and sea salts, and get those little packages of Ammonia Control absorbent packets. They look like little sponges in a wrapper. They work great to stabilize the pH. Or get the Ammonia control pellets and add a few to the tank, IF YOU ARE HAVING WILD EXTREME FLUCUATIONS.

IF YOU ARE HAVING WILD EXTREME FLUCUATIONS, get everything in your tank like you want it, (except the roots or plants,) and add two heaping tablespoons of baking soda to a gallon of water,Stir it good, then add it to the tank. Wait ten or 15 minutes, then pH adjust it again. Then it should stay stabilized until the next Drain and Replenish.


A buffer solution is an aqueous solution consisting of a mixture of a weak acid and its conjugate base or a weak base and its conjugate acid. It has the property that the pH of the solution changes very little when a small amount of acid or base is added to it. Buffer solutions are used as a means of keeping pH at a nearly constant value in a wide variety of chemical applications.

Remedies:


IF YOU ARE HAVING WILD EXTREME FLUCUATIONS,
primarily what one needs to add to the water are neutralizers and buffers that will stabilize the acid and alkaline levels to the degree that is required for the plants. Most of these stabilizing products are sold in great volume at any pet store that specialized in aquariums and tropical fish and if one is not familiar with what product to purchase, then one should consult with the qualified salespeople so as to arrive at a specific product that will properly address the specific needs of the fish and their owner. You want something that reduces the acid.

Do not use the charcoal, or buffers if you do not have to have them. They are only to be used in extreme flucuations.
__________________
 
trichome addict

trichome addict

Active Member
the algae shouldnt affect the ph, but if your still worried about it try what i suggested earlier and cover the tops of your buckets with blackout plastic.
the algae cant grow in the absence of light.
if you have any hydrogen peroxide(h2o2) then adding this to your res will also kill it.
just make sure you know how to use it first, it can be quite potent at high concentrations.
 
Mongobud

Mongobud

Well-Known Member
Does the 7.01 buffer solution I use to calibrate my ph meter work as a buffer? If so, how much do I add to a 4 gal res?
 
NewGrowth

NewGrowth

Well-Known Member
theblack said:
I cant seam to get my ph to stay down:wall:

I'm on my fifth week of veg and my plants are looking pretty sad. :-(This is my third grow but the first time using this set up. Built me a new system on advice of the guys at my hydro store but I'm regretting it big time!

Here's my setup:
**24 Jack Herrer's in 5 gallon buckets filled with Grodan stonewool.
**12 600 watt lamps for veg.
**44 gallon feeding res
**feeding every 12 hours about 500ppm. I know the ppm is low but my plants are in intensive care at the moment.
**using RO water
**Dutch Glory-Shiva and B nutes W/cobra

Things that i have already done over the last couple of weeks.

1. flushed system. feeding plain ro PHed water at 5.3 until i get back, in my return line, no more than 100ppm and 5.8.

next day mesaured the run off of individual buckets while feeding 5.3 and gettin back 6.4 even after 5 gallons of feed still over 6.0.

2. A few days later I feed several buckets individually catching all the runoof until I got back 5.6-5.7.

next day 6.3 runoff again:wall: even though i was feeding it 5.3 feed.

One more thing there is a good amount of algae covering the top of the stonewool. Im not sure if algae can be affecting PH so drastically. I always thought that Algae was harmless?
PLEASE HELP!
Click to expand...
Don't go under 5.5 and stop being so obsessive about the Ph. You want the Ph to drift to allow for nutrient absorbsion. Allow the Ph to drift up to 6.0-6.5 then re-adjust back down to 5.5-5.8.

Over watering will cause a rapid rise in Ph with rockwool, the rotting roots and anaerobic environment causes problems.

Also if you did not pre-soak your stonewool you will have issues.

Hope this helps :peace:
 
Mongobud

Mongobud

Well-Known Member
Well my ph jumped from 6.0 this morning to 7.1 this afternoon. Does the Hanna buffer solution work?

New DWC grow. Using FF Grow Big, Cal-Mag, drop of superthrive. First Feeding.
 
NewGrowth

NewGrowth

Well-Known Member
Mongobud said:
Well my ph jumped from 6.0 this morning to 7.1 this afternoon. Does the Hanna buffer solution work?

New DWC grow. Using FF Grow Big, Cal-Mag, drop of superthrive. First Feeding.
Click to expand...
A rise like that indicates problems, your rootzone may not be properly oxygenated.

Are you using any H202 or enzyme treatment?
 
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