canadian lawsuit: no babies allowed

somewhere in ottawa canada a lawsuit is pending. a family is suing the owner of a "swanky wine bar" for asking them to leave because they had with them a 3 month old infant. i happen to think a discussion about this issue is long overdue. i am totally behind this bar owner, although legally his local laws appear to prohibit this. i think there should absolutely be places that are set aside for adults who do not wish to be assaulted with loud screaming kids and parents who are so numb to it that they don't even repremand the child. surely there are more appropriate places to take an infant than a swanky wine bar. regardless of whether the child actually made any noise, i am behind this bar owner for choosing to provide the type of environment that i would enjoy. i would love for this to happen in the states.

i tried to find a text version of this story but the best i could do is this link of a clip to the show i saw it on. http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/america-live/index.html

If it is a private establishment, the owner should be able to enact ANY rule he see's fit as long as it is within the laws of the area.

SocataSmoker said:

If it is a private establishment, the owner should be able to enact ANY rule he see's fit as long as it is within the laws of the area.

Click to expand...

Yes, and keep the government out of it, completely!

It used to be back in the day of smoking in a restrant you would have to sit in the "Smoking" section.
And I have gone thru too many dinner dates I had to listen and watch kids that have no respect and make more noise than the whole town.
Leave them home or lock em in the car, I don't care but I'm paying for a nice meal w/o YOUR lousy, nasty Kids!!!

This question really deserves a two part answer. Should he be allowed to enforce a no baby policy? Within his establishment: Yes, I believe he should be allowed to provided that his policy is posted somewhere in public view prior to the incident. However, if he is enforcing the policy unevenly or sporadically, then the answer is no. A more appropriate policy would be "...that persons in the possesion of an infant(s)/child whom cause a public disturbance may be asked to leave." At least in my opinion, that seems to be a reasonable request. This may a personal issue with athority, but I take extreme offense to unwritten rules and people telling me to do things simply because "they say so." If there is a pre-existing policy and I am knowingly in violation, so be it; this is (supposedly) a civilized society and I am a civilized person. I will accept both the risks and consequences of my actions. As I side note, I am not particularly fond of children. However, I take no issue with polite and well mannered kids.

personally i don't have kids so i don't really care but its does seem like discrimination to me. whats next? are they gonna keep certain ethnic groups out?

In my area, there are cities that ban those under 21 from bars after 9PM. A few ban anyone under 21 from entering a bar at all.
I think any private business should be able to make any rules on who they serve as long as it follows the laws of anti-discrimination.
Saying that, age discrimination can be used as a suit as I am sure some lawyer will take it up.
We can't have "lady's night" anymore because a lawyer said that was sexist and and favored one gender...

what i want to know is how is "age discrimination" any different when you are banning a youngster from drinking alcohol than when you are banning an infant from being in the place? basically the law is saying "it's okay to discriminate based on age, but only if we say it's okay first". and for the record, if i ever saw an infant in a night club or dive bar i would call child services myself. way to parent.

i'd go to a no baby restaurant before a baby friendly all day long

kronicsmurf said:

personally i don't have kids so i don't really care but its does seem like discrimination to me. whats next? are they gonna keep certain ethnic groups out?

Click to expand...

we can only hope

Personally, I feel the issue is arbitrary policy enforcement. It sounds like the owner/manager was simply being an ass. I do not feel it would be innapropriate to have an infant in most "wine bars," provided you weren't bothering the other patrons or drinking to a point where your judgement would be impaired. This behavior would, in no way endanger the child. Second, we are assuming that the mother was drinking, which we do not know to be the case. Nor do we know the time the incident occured. Was it four in the afternoon or two AM? We don't know. I could see asking the customer to leave if they showed up with a baby at 2, but in the afternoon or evening, come on. Of course, I am also assuming that there wasn't a notice prohibiting children. Typically, such establishments have less in common with a bar than they do a cafe or bistro, albeit they have a well stocked wine cellar. Very few people object to having unobtrusive children in cafes and even fewer would accuse someone of being an unfit mother for bringing her child to dinner and having a glass of wine. Again, this is just opinion but, this is like trying to enforce a dress code in an establisment where there is no posted dress code. You can't really do it without stirring up all sorts of trouble.

There is no grounds for discrimination if its a privately owned place. They can refuse anyone they want to withou having to provide a reason. That bar could refuse sale to anyone in the place if they wanted to.. At least in my state they can

Do parents want me and my friends coming down to ChuckyCheeze and throwing beer around yelling at the TV and trying to take the waitress home?? Probable not. Just like people at the Tavern don't go there to here screaming kids.

Just ranting..I love the kids

And I'd never compare a "wine bar" with a real bar. Wine bars are ground zero for all kinds of douche-baggery. I like my wine (I even make it), but I'll take mine sans yuppie.

Dr.Nick said:

And I'd never compare a "wine bar" with a real bar. Wine bars are ground zero for all kinds of douche-baggery. I like my wine (I even make it), but I'll take mine sans yuppie.

Click to expand...

Mmmmm...homemade wine

I don't think kids should be allowed in bars or pubs in any case, and around here they're not. But with places which allow anyone under 18 then everyone under 18 should be allowed. Unless they're actually being assholes when they get to the door of the place you don't know that they're going to start being anti social while they're there. they could be really mature, well behaved children, or the baby could just sleep the entire time.

I know that if i'm in a cafe/restaurant and my daughter (5 months) starts crying i do everything i can to calm her down because it's a pain in the ass for other customers. If i have to take her outside and walk up and down the street til everyone else i'm with has finished their meal then i do that. That's not up to my kid, it's up to me to try and be polite and take other people into account. That's the point - it's usually not the kids' fault - parents should have some sense and discretion about where to take their children instead of just deciding to go where the parents want and then complain when the kids get bored.

Dunno what the detail of this particular case is but if the baby was causing problems then the parents need to either stop the baby doing it (by feeding it or whatever) or leave. If some drunk ass guy was causing problems then nobody would think twice about the owner asking him to leave.

ok then. let's say it's not a wine bar. just a regular old pub style restaurant that serves steak and beer. let's say i want to open a pub type place with a quiet theme. a place where people specifically come to get peace and quiet along with their dinner or drinks. maybe i want to implement a no cell phone policy in the dining area. perhaps loud parties would be asked to quiet down or leave, regardless of whether or not any customers complained. no live music, just soft muzak or something. let's say this is my dream. if i were to open such a place and invite young children in it would completely defeat the purpose of having the place. people with screaming brats could easily choose another place to eat. it seems to be the opinion of some that i am not entitled to this type choice as a business owner but patrons are entitled to go where they please and not respect the policy of the establishment. it's the same as the smoking ban. everyone favors the non smokers, and that's fine. no one is against the right to choose to be healthy. but what about the people who do smoke? why is it not okay to allow them to have a place where they can go and not "bother anyone?" not even cigar bars around here can allow smoking or they get a fine. it's total bullshit.

Total Head said:

ok then. let's say it's not a wine bar. just a regular old pub style restaurant that serves steak and beer. let's say i want to open a pub type place with a quiet theme. a place where people specifically come to get peace and quiet along with their dinner or drinks. maybe i want to implement a no cell phone policy in the dining area. perhaps loud parties would be asked to quiet down or leave, regardless of whether or not any customers complained. no live music, just soft muzak or something. let's say this is my dream. if i were to open such a place and invite young children in it would completely defeat the purpose of having the place. people with screaming brats could easily choose another place to eat. it seems to be the opinion of some that i am not entitled to this type choice as a business owner but patrons are entitled to go where they please and not respect the policy of the establishment. it's the same as the smoking ban. everyone favors the non smokers, and that's fine. no one is against the right to choose to be healthy. but what about the people who do smoke? why is it not okay to allow them to have a place where they can go and not "bother anyone?" not even cigar bars around here can allow smoking or they get a fine. it's total bullshit.

Click to expand...

I think everyone should be respectful of the policy of whatever establishment they're in, but it's unfair to assume that ALL kids are screaming brats whose parents neither try nor know how to control them.

there is nothing i hate more than a baby crying


well actually, its the same parents

A) not doing anything about the baby crying

and

B) not cleaning up the ridiculous messes made by said children (in any setting, food or otherwise)