Can we have a meaningful discussion about the effectiveness of capitalism?

This country has never seen true capitalism in at least a century

you mean when half the population was illiterate, poverty was sky high, and grandma was eating cat food?

yeah, you're really making the case for pure capitalism.

telll desert dude about the persecution your ancestors faced when their slaves were so unfairly taken away from them, he'll give you a like and a shoulder to cry on.
 

It's bad enough that the mfkr is still alive. Seriously though I can't tell the difference between right wing news and satire anymore.[/QUOTE]

He looks dead. 99 years is a good, long life.
 
Let's start with the money- outlaw all money in politics, point blank. No more campaign contributions, political ads, PACs, lobbying firms, slush money, warchests for smearing and destroying political opponents.That isn't 'socialism', that's 'democracy'.

You see, when all the rules are tilted in favor of the largest, most established companies and industries, what you get is stagnation, not innovation. This is the heart of America's productivity problem, and severing the links between government and industry (does anyone REALLY think that hiring a former- soon to be again- CEO of a major investment bank as the head of a government oversight and enforcement division is anything BUT letting the foxes run the greenhouse?!) are the steps necessary to allow change to happen.

Since it's in the vested interests of those already IN power to keep things as they are, this is much easier discussed than done. It remains necessary.

Capitalism isn't to blame, it's the application of it. When it's allowed to be the rule in business, it works well. When it's allowed into politics is when all hell breaks loose.

The only way to outlaw money in politics is to rescind the first amendment. do you trust the political class with that?

Speaking of money, Hillary expects to raise and $2.5 billion on her campaign. Do you think those donors have your interests at heart? Do you think Hillary has your interests at heart? Do you think those donors will want something in return? I always see these "get money out of politics" comments directed at Republicans and the political right-wing, along with chants of Koch-suckers. Is there anybody in the US slimier and less likable than Hillary?

Rand Paul is not perfect, but he is the best option we have. The Democrats hate him. The Republicans hate him. The left-wing loons on RIU hate him, and are terrified of him. Can there be any better set of recommendations for him?
 
Do you think Hillary has your interests at heart?

no, but rend pawl does. he knows that like you, i am interested in getting rid of civil rights so i can boot people out of my store based on their skin color.

that's what will get this nation on track for greatness.
 
The only way to outlaw money in politics is to rescind the first amendment. do you trust the political class with that?

Speaking of money, Hillary expects to raise and $2.5 billion on her campaign. Do you think those donors have your interests at heart? Do you think Hillary has your interests at heart? Do you think those donors will want something in return? I always see these "get money out of politics" comments directed at Republicans and the political right-wing, along with chants of Koch-suckers. Is there anybody in the US slimier and less likable than Hillary?

Rand Paul is not perfect, but he is the best option we have. The Democrats hate him. The Republicans hate him. The left-wing loons on RIU hate him, and are terrified of him. Can there be any better set of recommendations for him?

Money isn't free speech, IDGAF what SCOTUS ruled. They fucked up. They're wrong and it needs to be changed asap.
 
Money isn't free speech, IDGAF what SCOTUS ruled. They fucked up. They're wrong and it needs to be changed asap.

All those boring, repetitive, annoying political ads on TV, radio, the internet, etc. Every one of them costs money.

Incumbent politicians pretend to want to "get money out of politics" because they have a tremendous built-in advantage. Everybody knows their name. A challenger needs to spend money to get known.

You are silent if you have no money. Like it or not, money is speech.
 
All those boring, repetitive, annoying political ads on TV, radio, the internet, etc. Every one of them costs money.

Incumbent politicians pretend to want to "get money out of politics" because they have a tremendous built-in advantage. Everybody knows their name. A challenger needs to spend money to get known.

You are silent if you have no money. Like it or not, money is speech.

This is ridiculous. He who has the most money gets to be the most democratic?

WTF happened to one person, one vote? And more to the point, what's wrong with it? The money, as you've so aptly demonstrated, has subverted the choice of the people at every stage, yet you say it's okay?

You're not even a convincing apologist for your masters.
 
All those boring, repetitive, annoying political ads on TV, radio, the internet, etc. Every one of them costs money.

Incumbent politicians pretend to want to "get money out of politics" because they have a tremendous built-in advantage. Everybody knows their name. A challenger needs to spend money to get known.

You are silent if you have no money. Like it or not, money is speech.
"On Wednesday, a 5-4 Supreme Court held in Williams-Yulee v. Florida Bar that states may “prohibit judges and judicial candidates from personally soliciting funds for their campaigns.” It was a small but symbolically important victory for supporters of campaign finance laws, as it showed that there was actually some limit on the Roberts Court’s willingness to strike down laws limiting the influence of money in politics.

Chief Justice John Roberts’s opinion for the Court in Williams-Yulee is certainly better for campaign finance regulation than a decision striking down this limit on judicial candidates — had the case gone the other way, judges could have been given the right to solicit money from the very lawyers who practice before them. Yet Roberts also describes judges as if they are special snowflakes who must behave in a neutral and unbiased way that would simply be inappropriate for legislators, governors and presidents:

"States may regulate judicial elections differently than they regulate political elections, because the role of judges differs from the role of politicians. Politicians are expected to be appropriately responsive to the preferences of their supporters. Indeed, such “responsiveness is key to the very concept of self-governance through elected officials.” The same is not true of judges. In deciding cases, a judge is not to follow the preferences of his supporters, or provide any special consideration to his campaign donors. A judge instead must “observe the utmost fairness,” striving to be “perfectly and completely independent, with nothing to influence or controul [sic] him but God and his conscience.” As in White, therefore, our precedents applying the First Amendment to political elections have little bearing on the issues here."

Most Americans would undoubtedly agree that judges should not “follow the preferences” of their political supporters, as they would agree that judges should not “provide any special consideration to his campaign donors.” But the implication of the passage quoted above is that members of Congress, state lawmakers, governors and presidents should provide such consideration to their supporters and to their donors. The President of the United States is the president of the entire United States. A member of Congress represents their entire constituency. Yet Roberts appears to believe that they should “follow the preferences” of their supporters and give “special consideration” to the disproportionately wealthy individuals who fund their election.

This view of lawmakers obedient to a narrow segment of the nation is not new. To the contrary, it drove much of the Court’s widely maligned campaign finance decision in Citizens United v. FEC. Justice Anthony Kennedy’s majority opinion in Citizens United does not simply argue that “[f]avoritism and influence” are unavoidable in a representative democracy, it appears to suggest that they are a positive good. “It is well understood that a substantial and legitimate reason, if not the only reason, to cast a vote for, or to make a contribution to, one candidate over another is that the candidate will respond by producing those political outcomes the supporter favors,” Kennedy wrote in Citizens United. “Democracy,” he added “is premised on responsiveness.”"

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/20...ng-citizens-united-four-ridiculous-sentences/
 
So if there is no money in politics, how do we know who the shitbags are? How do they let us know what they are about?

Who pays for the advertising? Should a private company be forced to show commercials for free? What about the cost of making the ad? The people who worked on it, the camera man, makeup, key grip, all should be paid for the use of their services.

Same with the newspapers and magazines for print ads. Who will pay the production costs?

The USA isn't your local high school where posters on the wall is enough. Hell, even those posters cost money

Now if you want to make the politicians pay for it with their own money, I could get behind that, but then only the super rich could ever run. Air time is not cheap nor free.

Look, I hate the status quo. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss, every damn time. I can get behind limits to the amount of money one is allowed to spend($2 billion? Really Hillary? Really? You "need" that much eh?) I can't get behind removing it completely.
 
Let's start with the money- outlaw all money in politics, point blank. No more campaign contributions, political ads, PACs, lobbying firms, slush money, warchests for smearing and destroying political opponents.That isn't 'socialism', that's 'democracy'.

You see, when all the rules are tilted in favor of the largest, most established companies and industries, what you get is stagnation, not innovation. This is the heart of America's productivity problem, and severing the links between government and industry (does anyone REALLY think that hiring a former- soon to be again- CEO of a major investment bank as the head of a government oversight and enforcement division is anything BUT letting the foxes run the greenhouse?!) are the steps necessary to allow change to happen.

Since it's in the vested interests of those already IN power to keep things as they are, this is much easier discussed than done. It remains necessary.

Capitalism isn't to blame, it's the application of it. When it's allowed to be the rule in business, it works well. When it's allowed into politics is when all hell breaks loose.

You seem like a person concerned for others. I appreciate that.

Would you also outlaw the coercion baked into most of the politics you see or would you keep that involved in the mix as a utilitarian "necessary evil".? Why?
 
that is the most retarded attempt at explaining the origin of government that i have ever seen.


I really appreciate your input sir.

I do suggest you pay your proctology bill though, as clearly the first head extraction was unsuccessful.
 
“Government has three primary functions. It should provide for military defense of the nation. It should enforce contracts between individuals. It should protect citizens from crimes against themselves or their property. When government-- in pursuit of good intentions tries to rearrange the economy, legislate morality, or help special interests, the cost come in inefficiency, lack of motivation, and loss of freedom. Government should be a referee, not an active player.


Milton Friedman

I appreciate your point of view.

All of the things you mention are important to a peaceful society. All of them can be achieved absent a coercive central authority.
 
So if there is no money in politics, how do we know who the shitbags are? How do they let us know what they are about?

Who pays for the advertising? Should a private company be forced to show commercials for free? What about the cost of making the ad? The people who worked on it, the camera man, makeup, key grip, all should be paid for the use of their services.

Same with the newspapers and magazines for print ads. Who will pay the production costs?

The USA isn't your local high school where posters on the wall is enough. Hell, even those posters cost money

Now if you want to make the politicians pay for it with their own money, I could get behind that, but then only the super rich could ever run. Air time is not cheap nor free.

Look, I hate the status quo. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss, every damn time. I can get behind limits to the amount of money one is allowed to spend($2 billion? Really Hillary? Really? You "need" that much eh?) I can't get behind removing it completely.
Publicly funded campaigns, each candidate gets an equal amount to spend on their campaign how they see fit

All ideas are on an equal playing field and the ideas that appeal to the most Americans will be successful
 
This is ridiculous. He who has the most money gets to be the most democratic?

WTF happened to one person, one vote? And more to the point, what's wrong with it? The money, as you've so aptly demonstrated, has subverted the choice of the people at every stage, yet you say it's okay?

You're not even a convincing apologist for your masters.

Nothing has happened to one person, one vote; and there is nothing wrong with it. Money has not subverted people's choices. I have no masters to apologize for. I would happily vote for Gary Johnson for president. Do you know who he is?

This whole "get the money out of politics" thing arose because Democrats lost their monopoly on political communications. Before citizens united, Democrats were quite content.

Suppose you and I decided we wanted to support a particular candidate, say Bernie Sanders, and each threw in some money to do so. Is that acceptable? Should that be allowed by our political masters?
 
I think that any registered voter may spend up to a grand total of $100 per year on campaigns in total. No other entities may spend, and yes there should be a reasonable political matching program for candidates.

The hundred dollar figure is to make it universally accessible so everyone can spend the maximum. I have a feeling that political priorities and realities would shift quickly.
 
Nothing has happened to one person, one vote; and there is nothing wrong with it. Money has not subverted people's choices. I have no masters to apologize for. I would happily vote for Gary Johnson for president. Do you know who he is?
Demonstrably false

"It’s a bedrock truth of money and politics: The biggest spender almost always wins.

Here at the Center for Responsive Politics we’ve watched the trends in political money for a long time, and this is one of the most consistent findings we can identify.

Even during the most competitive cycles, when control of Congress is up for grabs, at the end of the day the candidates who spend the most usually win eight of 10 Senate contests and nine of 10 House races."

http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2012/01/big-spender-always-wins/


"States may regulate judicial elections differently than they regulate political elections, because the role of judges differs from the role of politicians. Politicians are expected to be appropriately responsive to the preferences of their supporters. Indeed, such “responsiveness is key to the very concept of self-governance through elected officials.” The same is not true of judges. In deciding cases, a judge is not to follow the preferences of his supporters, or provide any special consideration to his campaign donors. A judge instead must “observe the utmost fairness,” striving to be “perfectly and completely independent, with nothing to influence or controul [sic] him but God and his conscience.” As in White, therefore, our precedents applying the First Amendment to political elections have little bearing on the issues here."
 
I appreciate your point of view.

All of the things you mention are important to a peaceful society. All of them can be achieved absent a coercive central authority.
I agree mate, but only so far as, we could individually live without government. Supposedly society breaks down without governance, I believe we could self govern but not without key laws, who would enforce these 'natural laws'?.

How would we implement the change needed without breaking down to a state of anarchy?
 
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