Baking Soda and pH up

Oh dear. I never intended to start any arguments. If I may try to quell some of the discomfort and mollify our tempers....The problem with flame threads is that generally people stop reading them even if there is good info contained therein. I do believe Kingrow1 that you are trying to help and your advice may be accurate; there is a fine line between being benevolently forthcoming with knowledge/opinions, and seeming pedantic and obtrusive. I am not ascribing this to your comment, I just think that it may be possible that it was perceived that way. We are all victims of the written word here, and RIU's pages are teeming as they are with knowledge are woefully devoid of the radiant nuance infused and inherent in spoken language. We lack the benefit of aural contact, all of the subtle inflection, tone, timber and cadence. We are also fighting through language barriers as people are congregating here from all over the world. We in America take it for granted that everything on this board happens to be in English, but rest assured, I realize that English is not most people's primary language, and I cannot begrudge anyone for attempting to communicate across such lines. If I had to write all my threads in Latin, which is the only language I studied in school, you'd all probably think all of my posts were actually being written by a ferret.

I've read lordgin's posts and gotten advice from him in the past and I can vouch for him. He does not seek trouble, quite the contrary. In fact I think that part of this may have all started because he felt that I was under attack. This is a tight knit community; I may not have as high a post count as others, but I have been on this board long enough to know that people here value each others opinions more than most other places, and when they feel that someone is coming under fire, will rush to their defense. Sure there are some flame threads here, it's unavoidable, but you should see some of the other forums (no offense to any other forums that are reading this, which is probably none). I am not a hippie but I do like peace. Everyone has a different style and different methods when it comes to growing. That's what makes it so much fun, and such a captivating pastime. Socrates said the only true knowledge consists in knowing that you know nothing. Ok that's actually from Bill & Ted but it's true. Even the most veteran growers would claim that they don't know it all and that they are always learning. Anyone who claims otherwise is simply revealing their own ignorance. People also have different degrees of sensitivity, some are very thick skinned, and some aren't. This is the nature of our personalities. Neither is right or wrong. I think everyone here wants to feel when they come to a forum for advice that they are being helped and guided rather than scolded or chided because they were doing something wrong and should know better. When people feel that they are having opinions thrust upon them in an unwarranted or intrusive way, it's bound to ruffle some feathers. I think I will stop writing because now I am the one who is being pedagogical, but I am making an attempt at what I think may help us all overcome whatever it is that is obstructing us from reaching our objectives, solving our problems and ultimately becoming better growers. I assure you, the peerless education one can potentially receive from this board and others is as exceptional and incomparable as one could hope for, and that is something the vast majority of us greatly desire.

In rereading this, it may seem that through my careless use of pronouns, that I was directing all of this at Kingrow; let me say that this is not the case. I thank you for your pm of the links, and yes Al is a legendary grower, though I must admit that he does have some pretty strong opinions and can be stubborn. This is understandable considering his success, and he is a true master of his craft and we can all learn from him.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go adjust my pH now because over the course of writing this, I'm sure it's drifted several million points....
 
Redoctober said:
Oh dear. I never intended to start any arguments. If I may try to quell some of the discomfort and mollify our tempers....The problem with flame threads is that generally people stop reading them even if there is good info contained therein. I do believe Kingrow1 that you are trying to help and your advice may be accurate; there is a fine line between being benevolently forthcoming with knowledge/opinions, and seeming pedantic and obtrusive. I am not ascribing this to your comment, I just think that it may be possible that it was perceived that way. We are all victims of the written word here, and RIU's pages are teeming as they are with knowledge are woefully devoid of the radiant nuance infused and inherent in spoken language. We lack the benefit of aural contact, all of the subtle inflection, tone, timber and cadence. We are also fighting through language barriers as people are congregating here from all over the world. We in America take it for granted that everything on this board happens to be in English, but rest assured, I realize that English is not most people's primary language, and I cannot begrudge anyone for attempting to communicate across such lines. If I had to write all my threads in Latin, which is the only language I studied in school, you'd all probably think all of my posts were actually being written by a ferret.

I've read lordgin's posts and gotten advice from him in the past and I can vouch for him. He does not seek trouble, quite the contrary. In fact I think that part of this may have all started because he felt that I was under attack. This is a tight knit community; I may not have as high a post count as others, but I have been on this board long enough to know that people here value each others opinions more than most other places, and when they feel that someone is coming under fire, will rush to their defense. Sure there are some flame threads here, it's unavoidable, but you should see some of the other forums (no offense to any other forums that are reading this, which is probably none). I am not a hippie but I do like peace. Everyone has a different style and different methods when it comes to growing. That's what makes it so much fun, and such a captivating pastime. Socrates said the only true knowledge consists in knowing that you know nothing. Ok that's actually from Bill & Ted but it's true. Even the most veteran growers would claim that they don't know it all and that they are always learning. Anyone who claims otherwise is simply revealing their own ignorance. People also have different degrees of sensitivity, some are very thick skinned, and some aren't. This is the nature of our personalities. Neither is right or wrong. I think everyone here wants to feel when they come to a forum for advice that they are being helped and guided rather than scolded or chided because they were doing something wrong and should know better. When people feel that they are having opinions thrust upon them in an unwarranted or intrusive way, it's bound to ruffle some feathers. I think I will stop writing because now I am the one who is being pedagogical, but I am making an attempt at what I think may help us all overcome whatever it is that is obstructing us from reaching our objectives, solving our problems and ultimately becoming better growers. I assure you, the peerless education one can potentially receive from this board and others is as exceptional and incomparable as one could hope for, and that is something the vast majority of us greatly desire.

In rereading this, it may seem that through my careless use of pronouns, that I was directing all of this at Kingrow; let me say that this is not the case. I thank you for your pm of the links, and yes Al is a legendary grower, though I must admit that he does have some pretty strong opinions and can be stubborn. This is understandable considering his success, and he is a true master of his craft and we can all learn from him.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go adjust my pH now because over the course of writing this, I'm sure it's drifted several million points....
Click to expand...

Bravo, friend. That was thoughtful and exceedingly well written. I'm not afraid to say that it was a breath of fresh air here at RIU among the nearly incomprehensible butcherings of the English language we see in nearly every post. I've often found that posters (some even have decent plants) write at a 5th grade level, making communication frustrating at best, nauseating at worst. I'm not trying to be mean or an asshole... just telling it like it is. And you all know it's true.

I completely agree that wrong signals can travel through typed words on the screen. So again, that goes back to the crude, child-like writing level that is the overwhelming majority of these posts. It actually takes more than half a brain to pick up on, and more importantly, to communicate nuances through the written word.

But I don't think our friend here can be let off the hook that easily. Though his posts are crude and indeed child-like, the intention and sentiment behind his words were clear enough to me. Regardless of what helpful information he sent you by PM, that was a dick-head post to your thread plain and simple. Now, although not forgiveable, it would at least have been more understandable coming from an experienced hydro grower. But when a soil grower gives me, an experienced hydro grower, WRONG information, that pisses me off just a little. And when he does it in a smug, over-confident manner, that pisses me off more than just a little.

This is all I'm saying. When giving advice, please make it from personal experience. You can read Al B. Fuct's journal until you're cross-eyed, but until you actually grow in hydro, you know nothing. If you have NOT had the hands-on experience, and you just go around trying to spread Al B. Fuct's teachings, as a person with no real hands-on, there's a good chance you could misinterpret what Al might be saying. Or in our friend's case, repeating things like a parrot as if all situations are universally the same.

Edit:

Oh, and btw, my ph fell all week and I saw some of the best growth I've ever seen. Ph falling does not automatically mean harmful microbes have taken over your res. Peace.

Edit 2:

As a side note, I'm using AN Sensi for the first time after completing eight successful grows with GH. I made the switch in order to conduct my own test comparison. So I'm very much in a discovery process as I'm testing products that are new to me. I mixed with 8ml per gallon of hygrozyme, and I suspect that was causing my ph fluctuations. Now despite what a soil grower told me about enzymes in hydro not being necessary, I saw some of the healthiest growth I've ever seen.
 
Redoctober said:
Oh dear. I never intended to start any arguments. If I may try to quell some of the discomfort BLAH BLAH BLAH I need to go adjust my pH now because over the course of writing this, I'm sure it's drifted several million points....
Click to expand...

Lordjins wack, i didnt gun him down for commenting wrongly on soil threads but he dose if i comment on hydro threads! BTW my mate runs hydro better than the both of you two, he just trolled you and said Lorjins answers were wacko and that he has spent many years struggling with pretty much these issues!

Im not here any more as me and my mate are gona use his account for a while sorry! I surely pushed and pushed for the info me and everyone needed, Close nit community maybe but im not part of that, more an independant that dosent suck anyone off!

I been wrong many a time, how the hell you think i got here in the first place?? Questions inspire answers but ignorance inspires nothing. Anyone who thinks hydro and soil are at different ends of the spectrum surely has no appreciation of my views or where ive come from and am going.

You walk your road and i'll walk mine, big words and long sentences mean nothing to me but if the written word should evoke and thrust me into the lap of learning then surely they were not merely just words.

I salute you newbies, post count and length of time means nothing to me and never will! I have respect for those who write info and produce threads we can all learn off, this i expect of longer serving members as surely they know better how to rock this site! It wasnt just me that the 'Lord' dismissed (read back) but surely i am the one who pushes harder than most.

Sometimes people have their eyes wide shut..... Do not post anything of me again as im not here no more. Peace
 
I feel like baking soda would cause problems if you're running aero (clogged sprayers)

Maybe you need a bigger reservoir if you're getting pH swings like that?
 
See, Red? Look how the little troll still speaks badly of you even after you thanked him and made clear your post wasn't an idictment of him. Good riddance.
Click to expand...
Sadly, you're right...you just can't reach some people. I was attempting to be diplomatic and not criticize anyone but it's apparent that he is not interested in anything I have to say. I'm not sure why he would reveal that he is using someone else's account, but whoever that is, is going to come back to find their reputation ruined and/or account banned. If he doesn't care about that, then that's his prerogative. I'm here to learn and continue learning, if kindgrow1 want's to tell me how little I know... great, wonderful. I'm happy that his friend can grow circles around us, and also find it amazing that he can know that clairvoyantly.

At the end of the day, I did in fact get an answer to my original question about using baking soda, so I suppose this thread could be considered a Pyrrhic victory.

I feel like baking soda would cause problems if you're running aero (clogged sprayers) Maybe you need a bigger reservoir if you're getting pH swings like that?
Click to expand...
I was also afraid of this. I'm actually running low pressure aero so my spray heads are not the ultra fine, 50 micron heads that the HP guys are using which do clog easily, and one must be careful filtering their solution through a fine screen when growing that way. My sprayers are basically the same as what you'd find in an EZ cloner. I did a little test and put about 1/8 tsp baking soda into a bowl of water and stirred it around and it dissolved fully. I didn't see any debris or precipitate, so I think that unless I were to dump in a big chip of baking soda and not stir it up, it would dissolve into solution pretty well.

Yes I think a bigger reservoir would probably help slow the pH movement but unfortunately I just don't have the space.

On a side note, I think I read somewhere in one of Hobgoblit's posts, and correct me if I'm wrong here, that pH swings, while annoying, are not entirely bad because the nutrient absorption profile changes depending on the pH of the solution. So in essence, if the pH is drifting, the plants are absorbing a wider variety of nutrients over the entire range. A simple example might be something like: Nitrigen absorption is best at a pH of 5.8, but Potassium absorption is optimal at a pH of 5.6 or something. The previous example is just an example to illustrate the point and is not the actual numbers. I'd have to go reread the post to find the actual absorption peaks and their corresponding pH values for all of the elements, but you get the idea.
 
Redoctober said:
Sadly, you're right...you just can't reach some people. I was attempting to be diplomatic and not criticize anyone but it's apparent that he is not interested in anything I have to say. I'm not sure why he would reveal that he is using someone else's account, but whoever that is, is going to come back to find their reputation ruined and/or account banned. If he doesn't care about that, then that's his prerogative. I'm here to learn and continue learning, if kindgrow1 want's to tell me how little I know... great, wonderful. I'm happy that his friend can grow circles around us, and also find it amazing that he can know that clairvoyantly.

At the end of the day, I did in fact get an answer to my original question about using baking soda, so I suppose this thread could be considered a Pyrrhic victory.

I was also afraid of this. I'm actually running low pressure aero so my spray heads are not the ultra fine, 50 micron heads that the HP guys are using which do clog easily, and one must be careful filtering their solution through a fine screen when growing that way. My sprayers are basically the same as what you'd find in an EZ cloner. I did a little test and put about 1/8 tsp baking soda into a bowl of water and stirred it around and it dissolved fully. I didn't see any debris or precipitate, so I think that unless I were to dump in a big chip of baking soda and not stir it up, it would dissolve into solution pretty well.

Yes I think a bigger reservoir would probably help slow the pH movement but unfortunately I just don't have the space.

On a side note, I think I read somewhere in one of Hobgoblit's posts, and correct me if I'm wrong here, that pH swings, while annoying, are not entirely bad because the nutrient absorption profile changes depending on the pH of the solution. So in essence, if the pH is drifting, the plants are absorbing a wider variety of nutrients over the entire range. A simple example might be something like: Nitrigen absorption is best at a pH of 5.8, but Potassium absorption is optimal at a pH of 5.6 or something. The previous example is just an example to illustrate the point and is not the actual numbers. I'd have to go reread the post to find the actual absorption peaks and their corresponding pH values for all of the elements, but you get the idea.
Click to expand...

I think Pyrrhic vic might be a little strong. I don't see any great loss here. Sure, I smeared some of the walls with shit, but shit is biodegradable. And I make up for my shenanigans with grow journals that a few RIU posters enjoy... and some even learn from. I think the guy was a walking time bomb. He was bound to reveal that he does things like posting under more than one profile. That's just kinda' creepy.

Hobgoblit is awesome and knows his shit. My ph drifted like fuck all through veg and to hear Hob's very intriguing analysis is comforting indeed.

And a side note on the low pressure 39cent cloner sprayers? That's what I use too, so I don't have to worry about clogging any expensive micro pressure head either.

Edit:
And back to your Bill and Ted reference:

I don't know shit, I don't know shit, I don't know shit. I may talk a good game, but I'm not afraid to admit that I don't know shit.
 
Oh hey, Red.

Don't mean to keep bumping this thread, but I just got into it with Al B. Fuct.

We went back and forth because I questioned his claim that RO filters are a waste of time for all hydro growers. It ended with him promplty letting me know that he's a mod and that he would have me removed from the site if I continue responding to him. He also removed my last post where I dared him to ban me so it would look like he got the last word.

What a prince.
 
Yes, I remember that being his position on RO's. I don't necessarily agree, but I think I bit my tongue in that situation because I got the sense that he wasn't interested in debating the issue. That's fine, I don't really have the answer myself, and obviously tap water varies unbelievably from one municipality to another, so while it may be ok for some, it might not work for others. Personally, I enjoy drinking from the RO, even though my tap water is quite good as far as tap water goes, but the taste of RO water is so crisp and clean that I always feel like I'm doing something healthy by drinking it. I also notice the "taste" of other, non-RO water much more now, like from someone else's faucet or a water fountain. I do use tap water sometimes when I need to bring the pH up a bit because my tap is fairly alkaline, more so than RO (which stands to reason). In theory, RO water should be very close to 7.0, but it's actually hard to measure because my pH meter needs a certain degree of solutes in the water in order to register a valid pH. It hates pure water, which I can get by going 1 step further than RO and attaching my deionizer filter. I never really use it though because it removes calcium and magnesium (what little is left after passing through the RO) which I think is good for the plants, and me too.

Sorry for the off topicness here.
 
Redoctober said:
Yes, I remember that being his position on RO's. I don't necessarily agree, but I think I bit my tongue in that situation because I got the sense that he wasn't interested in debating the issue. That's fine, I don't really have the answer myself, and obviously tap water varies unbelievably from one municipality to another, so while it may be ok for some, it might not work for others. Personally, I enjoy drinking from the RO, even though my tap water is quite good as far as tap water goes, but the taste of RO water is so crisp and clean that I always feel like I'm doing something healthy by drinking it. I also notice the "taste" of other, non-RO water much more now, like from someone else's faucet or a water fountain. I do use tap water sometimes when I need to bring the pH up a bit because my tap is fairly alkaline, more so than RO (which stands to reason). In theory, RO water should be very close to 7.0, but it's actually hard to measure because my pH meter needs a certain degree of solutes in the water in order to register a valid pH. It hates pure water, which I can get by going 1 step further than RO and attaching my deionizer filter. I never really use it though because it removes calcium and magnesium (what little is left after passing through the RO) which I think is good for the plants, and me too.

Sorry for the off topicness here.
Click to expand...

this all seems overly complex. i hope the results are worth all the effot :)
 
this all seems overly complex. i hope the results are worth all the effot :smile:
Click to expand...

For me personally it didn't make a really noticeable difference other than the fact that the pH shifts in my rez seem to behave a little differently when I use tap water and when I use RO water. This kind of makes sense to me though. For some, tap water may not work though. But I recommend an RO to anyone for drinking...It's damn tasty! :)
 
ph shifts have you tried using different foods , some foods are much more acidic/alkaline than others and have better ph buffers that might help too
i try to avoid adding to much ph down, i add a bit once in a while for good luck , i never measure the ph anyway so its all of little importance to me now
my water starts at 7.2 the food drops it somewhere under 6.5 .. i leave it there and forget about it :)
 
I just switched from GH flora series to Dutch Master so well see if there's any difference in drifts. I have to adjust the pH of the GH several times a day but I don't think that the pH up or pH down adversely affect the plants, at least not that I've noticed.
 
ph down or up doesn't adversely affect anything unless you pour the whole bottle in your res.
 
Redoctober said:
I just switched from GH flora series to Dutch Master so well see if there's any difference in drifts. I have to adjust the pH of the GH several times a day but I don't think that the pH up or pH down adversely affect the plants, at least not that I've noticed.
Click to expand...

personalty m8 i do not fuss over ph, i do not take any readings so i could only guess what the ph of my solution is somewhere between 6 and 7
i do add some phosphoric or nitric acid to bring it down every 2 weeks or so i think you can do more damage by constantly fussing over things like this
if the plants look healthy, why worry weather the ph is .2 or .5 above or below what the latest guru says is optimum
to adjust the ph several times per day sounds crazy to me lol

peace :peace:
 
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