Attention Atheist

xKuroiTaimax

Well-Known Member
You misinterpreted me. Or more likely, I didn't make myself clear enough in a passing comment.

I'm not trying to say science is bullshit. I'm an enthusiast myself, top grades in individual classes and all that. I meant it is naive to think we understand EVERYTHING about how the world works and how it was formed. True there is alot we can make educated guesses about based on what we know as scientific fact, but sometimes you need as much faith to believe in the theoretical and what's really scientific speculation as you would a Deity.

My family is still uncomfortable with my compromised belief in Evolutionary theory and Creationism but meh...
*shrugs*

I think we should just all toke up and stop worrying about it. Let's make this present and future as good as they can possibly be. :3 *wags tail*
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
You misinterpreted me. Or more likely, I didn't make myself clear enough in a passing comment.

I'm not trying to say science is bullshit. I'm an enthusiast myself, top grades in individual classes and all that. I meant it is naive to think we understand EVERYTHING about how the world works and how it was formed. True there is alot we can make educated guesses about based on what we know as scientific fact, but sometimes you need as much faith to believe in the theoretical and what's really scientific speculation as you would a Deity.

My family is still uncomfortable with my compromised belief in Evolutionary theory and Creationism but meh...
*shrugs*

I think we should just all toke up and stop worrying about it. Let's make this present and future as good as they can possibly be. :3 *wags tail*
I think the reason that comment wasn't clear is because you are not completely clear on science and epistemology. No one thinks we know everything about anything but I think in the last few hundred years we have come up with models that are pretty close to reality. We have the basic framework, pretty good answers for most of the big questions, and is now a matter of filling in the details. It takes zero faith to accept the validity of scientific theories. There are certainly many speculative hypotheses about various aspects of nature but people don't sit back and take these things as truth on faith. They actively work to demonstrate ways they are right or (more importantly) wrong.

Please don't take this post a nit-picking or adversarial. I think it is important that people try to understand science and what it claims as much as what it doesn't. There are too many non-scientists out there telling everyone (wrong) information. People would do well to understand what science is and what it isn't and that science never, ever proves anything.

One of the reasons people do 'worry' about this stuff is so that we can help make our future as good as it possibly can be.
 

Brazko

Well-Known Member
There are too many non-scientists out there telling everyone (wrong) information.

What does that statement actually mean or implies? Now I understand your point so there is no need to over exemplify the non-sensical to prove your point, but the statement itself holds no water/validity.

Einstein wasn't a quote unquote "scientist" when he provided his first few publications to the scientific community. Nor did he follow the quote unquote "scientific method". His greatest discoveries supplied to the community where all basically thought experiments, that he would later go back and try to provide the Math to confirm the thought experiments. In fact the Nobel Peace prize was given to him for the paper he wrote when he was a "non-scientist".

Now, like I said don't over exemplify what I'm saying because I do understand the degree of context you are speaking, however, my point is that saying you are a scientist doesn't mean you are always providing the correct answers either. A majority of new leaps in theorectical physics is provided by people who were not considered Scientists..(ie. surfers, plumbers, etc...)
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
What does that statement actually mean or implies? Now I understand your point so there is no need to over exemplify the non-sensical to prove your point, but the statement itself holds no water/validity.

Einstein wasn't a quote unquote "scientist" when he provided his first few publications to the scientific community. Nor did he follow the quote unquote "scientific method". His greatest discoveries supplied to the community where all basically thought experiments, that he would later go back and try to provide the Math to confirm the thought experiments. In fact the Nobel Peace prize was given to him for the paper he wrote when he was a "non-scientist".

Now, like I said don't over exemplify what I'm saying because I do understand the degree of context you are speaking, however, my point is that saying you are a scientist doesn't mean you are always providing the correct answers either. A majority of new leaps in theorectical physics is provided by people who were not considered Scientists..(ie. surfers, plumbers, etc...)
I don't think you understand what it is to be a scientist. Einstein didn't win a Nobel Prize for simply thinking about the photoelectric effect, he used math and built upon another theory by Max Planck and his paper was able to be verified and he gave ways in which experiments can and were devised to show his equations were accurate.

You also seem to be unaware of Einstein's history as he had a diploma to teach physics at the Polytechnic in Switzerland prior to his 1905 papers. He studied science and wrote scientific papers even prior to the Annus Mirabilis yet you seem to want to label him as a non-scientist.

Einstein, Susskind and Lisi (the plumber and surfer) are all scientists regardless of what else they accomplish. Being a scientist doesn't mean that you have letters after your name, being a scientist means you understand and follow the scientific method in your search for the truth.

When I speak of non-scientists, I am speaking of forum denizens that have taken a class or two and think they are suddenly experts as seems to happen in many specialty areas. They are the ones that will repeat their misunderstanding about facts, laws and theories making it sound as if theories at some point become elevated to scientific fact or that laws cannot be broken and will always be true, etc.

I'm also talking about you, by implying some astounding insight just happened to come to a plumber or a surfer dude one day and they didn't put in a lot of hard work into their papers and their methods were somehow 'outside' of science.

I'm also talking about those non-scientists liars-for-Jesus such as Ken Ham and Kent Hovind that distort what science actually is for their own ends. Unfortunately their popularity is such that some of their nonsense actually ends up being repeated as fact often enough to be noticed.
 

Brazko

Well-Known Member
I don't think you understand what it is to be a scientist. Einstein didn't win a Nobel Prize for simply thinking about the photoelectric effect, he used math and built upon another theory by Max Planck and his paper was able to be verified and he gave ways in which experiments can and were devised to show his equations were accurate.

You also seem to be unaware of Einstein's history as he had a diploma to teach physics at the Polytechnic in Switzerland prior to his 1905 papers. He studied science and wrote scientific papers even prior to the Annus Mirabilis yet you seem to want to label him as a non-scientist.

Einstein, Susskind and Lisi (the plumber and surfer) are all scientists regardless of what else they accomplish. Being a scientist doesn't mean that you have letters after your name, being a scientist means you understand and follow the scientific method in your search for the truth.

When I speak of non-scientists, I am speaking of forum denizens that have taken a class or two and think they are suddenly experts as seems to happen in many specialty areas. They are the ones that will repeat their misunderstanding about facts, laws and theories making it sound as if theories at some point become elevated to scientific fact or that laws cannot be broken and will always be true, etc.

I'm also talking about you, by implying some astounding insight just happened to come to a plumber or a surfer dude one day and they didn't put in a lot of hard work into their papers and their methods were somehow 'outside' of science.

I'm also talking about those non-scientists liars-for-Jesus such as Ken Ham and Kent Hovind that distort what science actually is for their own ends. Unfortunately their popularity is such that some of their nonsense actually ends up being repeated as fact often enough to be noticed.
I know the history and I understand he didn't fairytale a theory up. And no, if having a diploma in the science/physics field qualifies you as a scientist then all the same, my point was that he wasn't an acknowledged scientist and he wasn't teaching. And if the point your making is to say he was a qualified scientist, then every junior/high-school teacher must be a scientist as well. I also compared the surfer and plumber not to say, they just fantasized their theories up and didn't put work into them, but yes in a sense that's what they did. The math could only take them so far. They used thought experiments & personal observable experience to spark new ideas and concepts, which they later went back to construct in mathematical terminology that I agree is the hard part.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood the scientific process, but I was under the impression that creative thinking and personal observations wasn't inclusive to the process. I thought it was a method of following information and not straying away from it, which kept you from heading in the wrong direction. Einstein didn't use Math to spark new ideas, he used thought experiments and personal observations that inspired him to refute Newtons theory . He was not an acknowledged scientists in any special field, just as the life-long plumber and a surfer weren't. Once again are you implying that a surfer/plumber isn't capable of providing reputable scientific standards of work? Because I made no implications that they did not put in the work, I simply said that they were not considered scientists in the general accepted or, technical sense. And if the above stands true to your meaning of scientist then I'm a scientist too, I hold diplomas in physics.



edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientist

I'm using this definition of Scientist and it describes the different context I think we are using. And by this definition the Surfer, Plumber, and E=MC2 were not Scientist by its restricted meaning, until they proved something that was already true. And only one has been able to demostrate with evidence while the others only provide incomplete math, but that isn't to say its not hypothetically sound with the present math involved.

I apologize for responding in Droid, so I'm cleaning it up to allow a better understanding as to what I previously said. And, I see your point about titles; I Am a Scientist in the broad sense, as well as the field listed. It wasn't just your opinion of me after all .. ;-)
 

Hepheastus420

Well-Known Member
Well I have found that you can't really ask questions without having the majority of the anwers come from athiests who think your stupid for believing in a god. I believe there's a god and that someday we will meet him and so on. So yeah there's really no way of knowing how the world was created the big bang is a theory you can believe it and maybe it was right but same goes for religion it's all based on faith alone.
 

guy incognito

Well-Known Member
Well I have found that you can't really ask questions without having the majority of the anwers come from athiests who think your stupid for believing in a god. I believe there's a god and that someday we will meet him and so on. So yeah there's really no way of knowing how the world was created the big bang is a theory you can believe it and maybe it was right but same goes for religion it's all based on faith alone.
Belief in the big bang isn't based on faith. It's based on evidence we've observed.
 

Hepheastus420

Well-Known Member
Belief in the big bang isn't based on faith. It's based on evidence we've observed.
Oh ok so it's a fact huh? You know for sure that how everything was created? Oh you don't know, u only believe that's how it was made? I'm sorry I thought belief and faith were alike I guess I'm wrong. Yeah I'm an asshole.
 

RawBudzski

Well-Known Member
OP is a fool, and OP has no CLUE how the people Defending Religion and shyt have looked like Nutt Cases the last few days.. Join the club lol. [video=youtube;fPY_xWci9AA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPY_xWci9AA[/video]
 

RawBudzski

Well-Known Member
belief / faith / religion are not the same. your mistake.
Oh ok so it's a fact huh? You know for sure that how everything was created? Oh you don't know, u only believe that's how it was made? I'm sorry I thought belief and faith were alike I guess I'm wrong. Yeah I'm an asshole.
 

Hepheastus420

Well-Known Member
belief / faith / religion are not the same. your mistake.
Hey how r ya doing fellow troll? Still arguing huh? Yup us trolls love to argue so then Im sure your waiting for me to post something so that you can argue. but now that I mentioned that you might not want to quote me, like you have been doing for the past couple of days so that you won't seem like a troll. Well then buddy I guess I'm gonna say something like na-ah ur wrong I'm right you just have to Bbbbeeeellliiieeevvveee. So now ur gonna say ur crazy and stupid, because ur better than everyone else, right? Well your probably gonna say I'm wrong well fuck it.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Oh ok so it's a fact huh? You know for sure that how everything was created? Oh you don't know, u only believe that's how it was made? I'm sorry I thought belief and faith were alike I guess I'm wrong. Yeah I'm an asshole.
Yes it is a fact. We can observe elements being made and know the exact process in which they're created.

Nobody is calling you stupid for believing in God. I know plenty of very smart people who have a belief in a higher power. I don't fault people for believing in God. It takes a lot to realize your own atheism, and even more to commit to it or abandon something like your religion.

I've seen your posts though, you're taking the appropriate steps, I can tell you're genuinely curious which is good. Keep asking questions, don't be discouraged by answers that seem arrogant or smug. The first step is realizing that nobody knows the answers to this stuff, and the ones pretending and claiming they do are the ones lying to you and you should avoid.

It's important to understand what 'fact' means, what 'theory' means, in the context of science. It's important to understand what 'hypothesis' means. What 'the scientific method' is and how it's applied and why it was devised.

Follow this path and you will find the answers you're looking for.
 

guy incognito

Well-Known Member
Oh ok so it's a fact huh? You know for sure that how everything was created? Oh you don't know, u only believe that's how it was made? I'm sorry I thought belief and faith were alike I guess I'm wrong. Yeah I'm an asshole.
I never said it was a fact I said it was based on observable evidence. I don't know for sure how everything was created, but the big bang makes a hell of a lot more sense than "god did it" when you look at the evidence. Yes you are wrong, faith and belief are not the same thing. Faith is belief in the absence of evidence.
 

Hepheastus420

Well-Known Member
yeah good advice padawanbater thanks and I sincerely apologize to everyone you can have your beliefs and I will have mine and we can get along now and debate.
 

Hepheastus420

Well-Known Member
I never said it was a fact I said it was based on observable evidence. I don't know for sure how everything was created, but the big bang makes a hell of a lot more sense than "god did it" when you look at the evidence. Yes you are wrong, faith and belief are not the same thing. Faith is belief in the absence of evidence.
Yeah ur right in ur own world just like how I'm right in my world. Hey I don't want to take this thread away from op any more so I'm gonna make a big bang theory thread in this section so check it out and answer some questions.:peace:
 

guy incognito

Well-Known Member
Yeah ur right in ur own world just like how I'm right in my world. Hey I don't want to take this thread away from op any more so I'm gonna make a big bang theory thread in this section so check it out and answer some questions.:peace:
Yes, you are right in your own little world disconnected from reality.
 
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