Atreum Lighting QB's.

Airwalker16 · Dec 18, 2018

PSUAGRO. said:
yes it sounds about right for a china board==lottery.......that's a resistance issue(amp draw)=could be many QC "thingies" at the factory..........check all connections, loose more resistance than tight, usual shit

confirm it runs hotter(temp) than the other boards and return for refund

You saying atreum is selling Chinese rip offs?

PSUAGRO. · Dec 18, 2018

Airwalker16 said:
You saying atreum is selling Chinese rip offs?

never said rip off, because a diode layout on a mcpcb isn't patented yet,lol.........atreum's boards are made in PRC unless someone will correct me? feel free

also not big enough to have supervisors on the factory floor, they will get spanked a couple of times

HydroFood · Dec 18, 2018

Connections are all good.
2 boards tested the same.
I have 2 more yet to test.
Temp is 100deg. Not bad I think?

Aren’t HLG boards made in PRC as well?
LEDG did quite an extensive review with par maps as well and they were just as good as HLG.
Could this be due to internal traces being inadequate causing increased resistance? or something along those lines?

Is it possible that their website just has the wrong calculations on their site? I would hope they aren’t calcs tho.

Would the Samsung calculator be able to tell me what these diodes should pull at a given voltage?

PSUAGRO. said:
never said rip off, because a diode layout on a mcpcb isn't patented yet,lol.........atreum's boards are made in PRC unless someone will correct me? feel free

also not big enough to have supervisors on the factory floor, they will get spanked a couple of times

HydroFood · Dec 18, 2018

They are wired 12s12p.
L301b AK bin volt is 2.7-2.8.
Voltage should be 32.4-33.6.
Im pulling 1.75 at 33.9.
Equals right about 60 watts.
Spot on for the data sheet
Just weird that they say 36v on their product page.

Randomblame · Dec 19, 2018

HydroFood said:
Iv got an Atreum 144.2 running but current draw seems high. Their website says nominal is 36v pulling 1.7A but I’m getting readings of 33.9v pulling 1.75A.
When I increase to 35v the board almost pulls 3A. I didn’t want to push it to 36v fearing it would damage.
Does any of this sound right?
View attachment 4251514

Don't worry about that.
The tests are probably done with 25°C case temps and therefor the voltage they mention is a little higher. Its also possible they called them 36v to show compatibility with 36v drivers.
Up to 36v you get probably with 20-25°C case temps but when the boards reach thermal equilibrium the voltage is a little lower. Thats normal behavior. I would simply measure the voltage two times, one time immediately when switched on to measure the highest possible voltage and the other measuring when the boards/heatsinks have stabilized thermally(~2-3h later). Usually the voltage drops off by 0,8-1,2v depending on what type of LED module you test(COB, strip, board, arrays). For single diodes the difference between 25 and 55°C is ~0,05 and 0,1v.

I do know nothing about these boards and their build quality. But bad PCB quatily can also cause some voltage droop.

With parallel wiring it also depends on the wire diameter.
For the connection from driver to the first/last wago's you should at least use the same stranded AWG14 wire you get from the DC side of driver.
For board to board connections you can use AWG18 single core wire for better and more durable connections.

Especially when you plan to remote wire the drivers and mount them outside of the tent/groom wire diameter plays an important role. The longer the wires are the more voltage droop occurs because of a higher resistance and you can only reduce wire resistance by using thicker wires.
There are a few online calculators available to figure out how much it would be with different wire diameters.

HydroFood · Dec 19, 2018

Thanks random. Love reading all your long posts the last few months. Thanks for taking the time to comment.
I emailed Atreum and they said essentially the same thing.
Their product page is geared towards easier driver selection for noobs.
I have the board connected straight from the driver to the board. 18awg is only a foot long from wago to board.
I just booted it up to test for voltage droop.
Measured 33.991
I’m using a CV driver tho so should I still expect voltage droop?

Randomblame said:
Don't worry about that.
The tests are probably done with 25°C case temps and therefor the voltage they mention is a little higher. Its also possible they called them 36v to show compatibility with 36v drivers.
Up to 36v you get probably with 20-25°C case temps but when the boards reach thermal equilibrium the voltage is a little lower. Thats normal behavior. I would simply measure the voltage two times, one time immediately when switched on to measure the highest possible voltage and the other measuring when the boards/heatsinks have stabilized thermally(~2-3h later). Usually the voltage drops off by 0,8-1,2v depending on what type of LED module you test(COB, strip, board, arrays). For single diodes the difference between 25 and 55°C is ~0,05 and 0,1v.

I do know nothing about these boards and their build quality. But bad PCB quatily can also cause some voltage droop.

With parallel wiring it also depends on the wire diameter.
For the connection from driver to the first/last wago's you should at least use the same stranded AWG14 wire you get from the DC side of driver.
For board to board connections you can use AWG18 single core wire for better and more durable connections.

Especially when you plan to remote wire the drivers and mount them outside of the tent/groom wire diameter plays an important role. The longer the wires are the more voltage droop occurs because of a higher resistance and you can only reduce wire resistance by using thicker wires.
There are a few online calculators available to figure out how much it would be with different wire diameters.

rkymtnman · Dec 20, 2018

so @HydroFood you got the 144.2 boards?

i hope mine are here before Xmas. i got 8 of them. and i get to re-use the 36v drivers i had for my diy cob rig which saved a bunch of money.

i'll have 480 watts in my 3x4 bloom room. it should rock the house i hope. lol.

HydroFood · Dec 20, 2018

Voltage started at 33.991
4 hours later it was 33.90

Randomblame said:
Don't worry about that.
The tests are probably done with 25°C case temps and therefor the voltage they mention is a little higher. Its also possible they called them 36v to show compatibility with 36v drivers.
Up to 36v you get probably with 20-25°C case temps but when the boards reach thermal equilibrium the voltage is a little lower. Thats normal behavior. I would simply measure the voltage two times, one time immediately when switched on to measure the highest possible voltage and the other measuring when the boards/heatsinks have stabilized thermally(~2-3h later). Usually the voltage drops off by 0,8-1,2v depending on what type of LED module you test(COB, strip, board, arrays). For single diodes the difference between 25 and 55°C is ~0,05 and 0,1v.

I do know nothing about these boards and their build quality. But bad PCB quatily can also cause some voltage droop.

With parallel wiring it also depends on the wire diameter.
For the connection from driver to the first/last wago's you should at least use the same stranded AWG14 wire you get from the DC side of driver.
For board to board connections you can use AWG18 single core wire for better and more durable connections.

Especially when you plan to remote wire the drivers and mount them outside of the tent/groom wire diameter plays an important role. The longer the wires are the more voltage droop occurs because of a higher resistance and you can only reduce wire resistance by using thicker wires.
There are a few online calculators available to figure out how much it would be with different wire diameters.

HydroFood · Dec 20, 2018

Awesome let me know how they measure when you get them all set up!

rkymtnman said:
so @HydroFood you got the 144.2 boards?

i hope mine are here before Xmas. i got 8 of them. and i get to re-use the 36v drivers i had for my diy cob rig which saved a bunch of money.

i'll have 480 watts in my 3x4 bloom room. it should rock the house i hope. lol.

Randomblame · Dec 21, 2018

HydroFood said:
Voltage started at 33.991
4 hours later it was 33.90

That's pretty good! Boards seems to run pretty cool..
There is not much of a droop with such a short wire and the 0,091v difference between cool and warmed up means the case temperature must be pretty low. Maybe 40-45° or so...

Your driver is CV/CC version. This means it can work in both modes constant voltage and constant current. The CV mode is only active with additional DC to DC drivers like Meanwells LDD's or when you set the voltage manually higher like the nominal voltage of the driver(voltage adjustment range, A version has voltage and current regulators below the small rubber plugs)
When directly connected to LED's the driver works always in CC mode and the constant current region is in use. The voltage of the LED's connected must fall within this range.(18-36v)
Only if you use LED's with a slightly higher voltage (lets say 38v) you need to set the voltage higher via the left vF regulator. In this case the voltage is above its CC region and the driver is forced to run in CV mode.
Your voltage fits perfectly in the CC region so you can be sure its running in CC mode!

Thats the corresponding part of the datasheet. Looks meaningless but it is very important to understand how these drivers work...

Your driver can run in CC mode with LED modules with a voltage between 18 and 36v. It would only work in CV mode with DC to DC drivers or LED modules with a voltage between 36 and 38v.

HydroFood · Dec 21, 2018

Randomblame said:
That's pretty good! Boards seems to run pretty cool..
There is not much of a droop with such a short wire and the 0,091v difference between cool and warmed up means the case temperature must be pretty low. Maybe 40-45° or so...

Excellent!
I’m well up to speed on the different modes.
Plus I’m nowhere near the max load to switch it into CC mode.

Airwalker16 · Dec 21, 2018

Randomblame said:
That's pretty good! Boards seems to run pretty cool..
There is not much of a droop with such a short wire and the 0,091v difference between cool and warmed up means the case temperature must be pretty low. Maybe 40-45° or so...

Your driver is CV/CC version. This means it can work in both modes constant voltage and constant current. The CV mode is only active with additional DC to DC drivers like Meanwells LDD's or when you set the voltage manually higher like the nominal voltage of the driver(voltage adjustment range, A version has voltage and current regulators below the small rubber plugs)
When directly connected to LED's the driver works always in CC mode and the constant current region is in use. The voltage of the LED's connected must fall within this range.(18-36v)
Only if you use LED's with a slightly higher voltage (lets say 38v) you need to set the voltage higher via the left vF regulator. In this case the voltage is above its CC region and the driver is forced to run in CV mode.
Your voltage fits perfectly in the CC region so you can be sure its running in CC mode!

Thats the corresponding part of the datasheet. Looks meaningless but it is very important to understand how these drivers work...
View attachment 4252662

Your driver can run in CC mode with LED modules with a voltage between 18 and 36v. It would only work in CV mode with DC to DC drivers or LED modules with a voltage between 36 and 38v.

I wish I understood this more.

Randomblame · Dec 22, 2018

Airwalker16 said:
I wish I understood this more.

Ach, it's actually pretty easy, bro.
Lets say you have a common HLG-240H-48A driver. If the connected LED's have a voltage within the constant current region (24-48v) the driver runs in CC mode. If the voltage of the connected LED module is higher like 48v and you are forced to set the voltage higher(voltage adjust. range, left regulator) the driver can only work in CV mode. This mode is also used when you use so-called DC-to-DC drivers like meanwells LDD's. These drivers need a CV power supply and convert this in CC to run strings of different 1, 3 or 5w diodes. They are often used in aquarium lights but its not efficient enough for us(90% eff max.).
If you use the HLG-240H-48B there is no voltage regulator and with LED's he can only work in CC mode. CV mode is only used with DC to DC drivers but it makes no sense to use a dimmable driver to drive LDD's.
The above descriptive behavior is only possible with A and the new AB models. B model can only work in CC mode when directly connected to LED modules like COB's or strips.

Airwalker16 · Dec 22, 2018

Randomblame said:
Ach, it's actually pretty easy, bro.
Lets say you have a common HLG-240H-48A driver. If the connected LED's have a voltage within the constant current region (24-48v) the driver runs in CC mode. If the voltage of the connected LED module is higher like 48v and you are forced to set the voltage higher(voltage adjust. range, left regulator) the driver can only work in CV mode. This mode is also used when you use so-called DC-to-DC drivers like meanwells LDD's. These drivers need a CV power supply and convert this in CC to run strings of different 1, 3 or 5w diodes. They are often used in aquarium lights but its not efficient enough for us(90% eff max.).
If you use the HLG-240H-48B there is no voltage regulator and with LED's he can only work in CC mode. CV mode is only used with DC to DC drivers but it makes no sense to use a dimmable driver to drive LDD's.
The above descriptive behavior is only possible with A and the new AB models. B model can only work in CC mode when directly connected to LED modules like COB's or strips.

And so the CC of the 48A is equal to its total output amperage divided by the # of LEDs within the 24-48v?

Randomblame · Dec 22, 2018

Airwalker16 said:
And so the CC of the 48A is equal to its total output amperage divided by the # of LEDs within the 24-48v?

Yepp! In CC mode you always get the full current of the driver no matter if the LED voltage is 24, 36 or 48volts and the current is shared between the in parallel connected modules. But this also means when you use an 48v driver to run 36v COB's you can not get the full output of the driver. An HLG-240H-48A has for instance 5,2amps. If you use only 36v of the available 24-48 you get only 36v x 5,2amps = ~187,2w. For this reason you need to choose the most siutable driver according to your LED modules.

HydroFood · Dec 22, 2018

Randomblame said:
Yepp! In CC mode you always get the full current of the driver no matter if the LED voltage is 24, 36 or 48volts and the current is shared between the in parallel connected modules. But this also means when you use an 48v driver to run 36v COB's you can not get the full output of the driver. An HLG-240H-48A has for instance 5,2amps. If you use only 36v of the available 24-48 you get only 36v x 5,2amps = ~187,2w. For this reason you need to choose the most siutable driver according to your LED modules.

But per the pic of the data sheet you posted, the driver only switches into CC mode when it reaches 100% load.
LEDG has a really informative video describing how these drivers work. And in my experience, it works exactly how he describes in the video.

I’m not sure what you mean by CV mode only works with DC to DC drivers.
The HLG series is AC to DC driver.
Am I way off?

Randomblame · Dec 23, 2018

HydroFood said:
But per the pic of the data sheet you posted, the driver only switches into CC mode when it reaches 100% load.
LEDG has a really informative video describing how these drivers work. And in my experience, it works exactly how he describes in the video.

I’m not sure what you mean by CV mode only works with DC to DC drivers.
The HLG series is AC to DC driver.
Am I way off?

Yeah, I know his vids about MWs. Nope, if directly connected to LED's the driver would always try to use CC mode. Read the hint on the right and above the drawing. From factory they are set to nominal voltage only when you set the voltage higher the driver is forced to work in CV mode.
And google "Meanwell LDD driver". Its a driver that takes CV and convert it into CC. Usually a bunch of LDD's are running on one HLG CV/CC driver. They are available from 350-1500mA, input voltage up to 52v and are use when someone wants to mix several strings of 1, 3 or 5w diodes. Like in aquarium lights..

But in the end it doesn't matters which mode is used. If you use a siutable driver the maximum voltage is not high enough to get serious issues with thermal runaways. Modern COBs, Strips have a wide overdrive range(2-3x nominal current) the only thing that can happen is slightly uneven brightness in the worst case. But I'm pretty sure no one would recognize it with the naked eye.

Edit!
In the 2nd half of that video about the A-type drivers he should have mentioned more often when the driver is working in CC mode. Most of the time he has set the voltage lower than nominal and this means CC mode. Only in that short part where he set the voltage up to 60volts the CV mode would be used. But because QB's use less than 54volts they are always running in CC mode with an HLG-120. With an HLG-240 he would have more current and could run the board at 250w and 56v or even higher.
Do you know his video where he is trying to blast one QBv1 with an HLG-600 + and additional DC-to-DC driver? You should watch this video too to get better understanding whats possible with this drivers.

HydroFood · Dec 23, 2018

Randomblame said:
Yeah, I know his vids about MWs. Nope, if directly connected to LED's the driver would always try to use CC mode. Read the hint on the right and above the drawing. From factory they are set to nominal voltage only when you set the voltage higher the driver is forced to work in CV mode.
And google "Meanwell LDD driver". Its a driver that takes CV and convert it into CC. Usually a bunch of LDD's are running on one HLG CV/CC driver. They are available from 350-1500mA, input voltage up to 52v and are use when someone wants to mix several strings of 1, 3 or 5w diodes. Like in aquarium lights..

But in the end it doesn't matters which mode is used. If you use a siutable driver the maximum voltage is not high enough to get serious issues with thermal runaways. Modern COBs, Strips have a wide overdrive range(2-3x nominal current) the only thing that can happen is slightly uneven brightness in the worst case. But I'm pretty sure no one would recognize it with the naked eye.

Edit!
In the 2nd half of that video about the A-type drivers he should have mentioned more often when the driver is working in CC mode. Most of the time he has set the voltage lower than nominal and this means CC mode. Only in that short part where he set the voltage up to 60volts the CV mode would be used. But because QB's use less than 54volts they are always running in CC mode with an HLG-120. With an HLG-240 he would have more current and could run the board at 250w and 56v or even higher.
Do you know his video where he is trying to blast one QBv1 with an HLG-600 + and additional DC-to-DC driver? You should watch this video too to get better understanding whats possible with this drivers.

Damn this is really flipping my understanding upside down!
Btw, I hope you don’t take any of my questions or statements as attacking you or trying to prove I know anything.
I was just laying out my understanding of this and trying to connect the dots of knowledge. I truly love learning everything I can about the inner workings of the lights I’m building, so I have no problem receiving a thorough schooling! And I will watch that other vid thanks for that.

Shouldn’t the Vo pot be disabled when the driver is in CC mode?

After further review of the CV/CC graph, the y-axis is the voltage adjust, so CV mode is only achieved when that dial is maxed out. Is this what you were suggesting?

Since my Atreum boards are running at 33-35v on my HLG-185h-36A, they will always be in CC mode? I thought when the driver is in CC mode, the Vo is disabled, you can turn it up n down with no effect.

So would you agree or disagree with that LEDG video regarding the diff modes?
To me it seems like you two have vastly differing ideas on how they work.
Again, this could be my error, as I’m trying to regain an understanding of this topic.

I very much appreciate your help random!
Looking forward to furthering this discussion, in hopes it’s not to elementary.

Randomblame · Dec 23, 2018

Nope, there are settings or possible circuit designs where either the one or the other has no effect. They both work together and one limits each other. When the driver runs in CC mode it means you can always "get" the full current of the driver but you can dimm the current down to 50%. He skipped a few things and should have more often mentioned when the driver use the CC mode.
Rule of thumb is, if the voltage of the connected LED modules falls in the CC region the driver use the CC mode. If the voltage of the circuit is higher it works in CV mode means when the connected LED module needs more than the nominal voltage.
If you use an HLG-120H-48A for instance to run a 54v QB you need to set the voltage regulator at maximum which is 53v(or a bit more). The driver would work in CV mode also when the boards takes less the 2amps at 53v. And if you dimm the current regulator down it would still work in CV mode. Only when you reach the point below 48v he would switch in CC mode but at 48v the board would be already off or take only 100mA or so.
If you use the HLG-120H-54A and set the voltage to 60v and enable all available current flow the voltage would go above 54v and the driver would work in CV mode. In this mode you get the most power out of this driver and you can get up to 165w out of an HLG-120.
Meanwell offers test reports for all their drivers and only in this reports you can see what you really can get out of their drivers. Below is from HLG-320H-C series but they are available for the CV drivers too.

Thegermling · Dec 25, 2018

SB85 said:
I haven't seen any results of plants grown with these lights as of yet in this thread.

Oh they can grow...

Atreum Lighting QB's.

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